I Need Support for This Whole Bakker Thing

[Xray the Enforcer]

That's glorification.

no, man. That's atmosphere.

[Larry.]

As to the 'what vs who' argument - you really didn't make that particularly clear in your argument. Instead of clever uses of the english language to not illustrate your point, you might try just saying what you mean. Or, I'll try and continue to interpret your italicisms in interesting way. What does is mean? I think it means you're pro-Goodkind.

Actually, I was saying what I meant, while also realizing (to myself at least) that there were two things involved (how 'I' understand the character of Kellhus and how the various characters view Kellhus) and that I didn't want to make a lengthier response on both. As for 'is" - Quite possibly the most difficult word in any language to define with precision, along with 'am' and 'are'

And as for that last comment...

<bugs bunny> Of course you know, this means war!</bugs>

[Daeric]

You know, I can't remember the Conphas rape scene.

damn you people, your going to make me sit here wondering when the hell did he get raped in the book.

[Xray the Enforcer]

You know, I can't remember the Conphas rape scene.

damn you people, your going to make me sit here wondering when the hell did he get raped in the book.

SPOILER: TTT

Cnaiur drops a bit of the ultraviolence on Conphas in the middle of TTT, after they've retreated from the holy war to the city of Joktha (Cnaiur is supposed to keep watch over an exiled Conphas for Kellhus).

[Mackaxx]

You know how I know that rape was glorified? Because folks cheered that Conphas was raped. In this thread, in other threads, people believed he 'deserved' that fate.

All blacked out

People cheered in threads after this city or that city was sacked and burned, by an invading army that wasn't really there for any good reason.

People cheered when that guys eyes got cut out.

People especially cheered when they hit shimeh.

I thought that these things weren't glorified at all, in fact, i thought most of them were disgusting, disturbing, and, not fun at all. Did that mean i didn't enjoy readin these scenes? No, I did, but, I certainly didn't think they were pro these acts.

The EXACT same goes for any of the rape scenes.

If people believed Conphas deserved that fate, its the readers that are a little fucked, not the book. You read it, and, didn't think he did. I did too, and, didn't think he did either. Difference is, you thought the author made it something glorified, others did too, I didn't and, other didn't either. Its a difference of opinion.

There was a great movie out a while back, called, romper stomper. An aussie flick about white suprmecists. Disgusting scenes, murder, beatings, rape, you name it. Fantastic film though. One section of the audience obviously enjoyed said scenes, and, cheered them on. And, these people weren't exactly KKK members or anything, just stupid young boys who enjoyed the violence. Did the film maker intend this? In this case, certainly not, but, part of the audiece just didn't get it did they.

Back to the book..

The whole series, as I see it, and, feel it, is a downer. Nothing good seems to happen, the world is, quite frankly, fucked. Something i really appreciate about it, is, we've got this downright fucking evil group in the consult right. Obscenly disgustingly wrong, in every way. It leaves you with the 'good guys' to root for, and, it makes it easier for you to think of em as goodies. As, of course, next to the ultimate evil, they fall rather short.

Take away the consult and what have you got, in fucking sane religious fantatics, traipsing across a desert, murdering city after city, onwards and onwards. Relentless, for some obscure religious reason.

Take away the consult, and, I as a reader, would love to see the holy war fail.

Aaaanyway, you also failed to address the point i made earlier, about, you being somewhat of a hypocrit about being on your high moral horse about rape, when, you dont have anywhere near as big a problem with violent atrocities.... I know Martin unashamedly glorifies these, adding in cool little superhero like lines and such. Should we rip into anyone who enjoys such things and cheers for them.

Poor Joffrey

[Kalbear]

People cheered in threads after this city or that city was sacked and burned, by an invading army that wasn't really there for any good reason.

People cheered when that guys eyes got cut out.

People especially cheered when they hit shimeh.

All three things were big 'moments' - big high points Bakker hit as emotional payoffs. They're supposed to make people get a reaction, and it's clear from reading that 'glory' is a good reaction there. GRRM does this all the time; he absolutely glorifies Arya's revenge at the end of ASOS, for instance. I think you're kind of agreeing with me here or at least helping my point.

Aaaanyway, you also failed to address the point i made earlier, about, you being somewhat of a hypocrit about being on your high moral horse about rape, when, you dont have anywhere near as big a problem with violent atrocities.... I know Martin unashamedly glorifies these, adding in cool little superhero like lines and such. Should we rip into anyone who enjoys such things and cheers for them.

No, I addressed that above - see my comment about the difference between GRRM and Bakker in using PoV characters as the rapists/rapees and deaths. Because I didn't make it clear enough, I'll try again: the primary difference is that Bakker uses PoV characters and describes the rape scenes very vividly; the descriptions of the death scenes to PoV characters is surprisingly quick.

But I'll happily get on my moral high horse about violence vs. rape; I have much less of a problem with graphic depictions of violence than I do rape. I don't think that's hypocritical; I never stated that I thought all glorification of violence was bad. I said that the glorification of rape was bad. That doesn't really matter though. My main point was that I did not like the continued repeated references to scenes of graphic rape when they were not explicitly necessary to the plot of the story. Obviously those didn't bother you so much. As you say, that's a difference of opinion, and I'm sorry if I somehow implied that everyone must share my views that the focus on rape was bad.

I liked a lot of the book; it reminded me very much of Dune, and I liked a lot of that too. I also thought the Consult were a very interesting fantasy enemy and I liked the somewhat horrific element they brought into the mix. The rape sequences bothered me.

[Mackaxx]

Spoilerated

In regard to rape and a point of view character, Conphas, who was used to make a point earlier, certainly isn't depicted as being raped in a graphic manner, in fact, its just kind of alluded to. Indeed, someone above had no idea it had actually occured.

The torture of Akkas buddy, by comparison, was much more vivid, as was the death of a certain student of his. Another sequence invovling a pseudo crucifixtion got pretty in depth too.

Basically, I dont think, comparatively, the rape stuff was any more blown out of proportion than the violence. Whats sticks with me in my head, as, uncomfortable moments, are, the finish of the second book, the epilogue sort of thing (rape there indeed, yeck), the aforementioned torture scene, the skin spies getting strung up to glean information, and, Inrau (spelt wrong no doubt), and the circumfix thingame.

edit, oh, and how could i forget, a lot of the seswatha flashback thingies, brrrr.

The rape sequences bothered me.

Both the rape and the violence is meant to bother you, it kind of disturbs me that some people cheered on either. I really don't think that was the intention.

I think the cheering on of such stuff bothers me more.

(Oh, and nice avatar!)

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Sure are a lot of unmarked spoilers around here. I should have known better I guess!

[Kalbear]

Both the rape and the violence is meant to bother you, it kind of disturbs me that some people cheered on either. I really don't think that was the intention.

You continue to fail to understand. The existence of the rape sequences bothered me. It's not that rape is bad. It's that rape continues to be a theme throughout the series in various explicit ways (and come on, 'the blood and soil of conphas' isn't explicit or graphic?). I am not saying that Bakker loves raping people or whatever, though it seems clear that he's okay with it being used as a tool for vengeance. I'm saying that I don't like reading about rape in books, and the more explicit it is in that book, the more I will not like it. Regardless of the central message behind it.

That it is used as a capstone in several scenes - a way to finish off a chapter or whatnot - makes it even more bothersome. The epilogue of TWP is a great example of this; this is meant to horrify but it is absolutely glorified here, because it is so horrible; he uses it as some horrific cliffhanger ending. In that respect, I absolutely despise the Consult because they are, essentially, rape demons. If it was just contained to the Consult I think I might be okay with it; these are the villains after all, and they will ultimately fail. But it isn't.

[Mackaxx]

the primary difference is that Bakker uses PoV characters and describes the rape scenes very vividly; the descriptions of the death scenes to PoV characters is surprisingly quick.

I was responding primarily to this statement, which, said that the death of characters as compared to the rape of, are suprisingly quick. i didn't think that this was true.

I get what your saying, don't worry. And, yes, the end of TWP is fucking horrible.

[Kalbear]

I was responding primarily to this statement, which, said that the death of characters as compared to the rape of, are suprisingly quick. i didn't think that this was true.

Well, PoV wise who dies? Xerius dies, a quick snap of the neck basically (during a horrific rape/sex scene, no less). Conphas' death is so quick that people actually have debated whether he died. Serwe plays out a bit longer, twisting on the circumfix, I'll grant you. Inrau is not super fast or super slow, I guess, but he's not that significant of a PoV character. Really, it's Serwe vs. Xerius and Conphas. and for being characters whose tale we're actually following, the amount of attention on their death is really tiny. Compare to Catelyn or Ned, or Theon/Brienne's 'ends' and how much attention is devoted to just these things as a counterexample of what I'm talking about.

[Mackaxx]

Oh noes, the text is invisible!

A lot of the rape descriptions are pretty short and sweet (edit. bad analogy) too though, for pov characters, summed up in a single rather disturbing sentence often. 'Blood and soil', 'Body doing things it shouldn't'(Or something like that).

But, ok, from the point of view side of things, well, thinking about it, you may be right regarding actual page time. I wasn't specifically refering to POV stuff when i made the call. Not sure why this should be the focus either.

The whole Serwe vs. Xerius and Conphas thing, and excluding Inrau, I'm really not sure if I'd place Xerius as that big a point of view character anyway, certainly not a great deal more than Inrau. Then youve got all the nasty shit happening in the other point of view stuff, like a certain spires sorcerer meeting up with akka for a touch of retribution.

We're fast getting into a niggly little argument i think. Yes, I can see how in regard to character point of views it could be tipping toward what your saying, but, not by much.

And now, to refresh the thread with something different.

Now that someone has mentioned Xerius, I've been wondering, why did the consult want him dead in the first place? To destroy the holy war?

[Kalbear]

Not sure why this should be the focus either.

Primarily because the reader is more likely to be sympathetic to a PoV than just random people. That makes all the difference (for example) between talking about people being raped in ASOIAF and the Pov character being raped in PON. It's a matter of degree and of effect.

The Consult wanted Xerius dead? You mean, when they actually, like, killed him? They wanted him dead in TTT because they wanted Conphas to become emperor in name, so he could directly and easily oppose Kellhus; at that point they were absolutely desperate to stop the Dunyain from succeeding and were willing to cash in all their chips in order to do so. From Xerius' perspective things were going great and he wasn't going to give Conphas the troops he needed. Destroying the Holy War isn't a big deal for them, one way or another; they don't care that a bunch of humans kill each other - just means less people to kill to shut out the Outside.

[Mackaxx]

Groovy, thats how I played it out in my head too. I think maybe i might go back up and add a spoiler tag or two to my posts.

Invisible stuff herin

As for point of view and sympathy, yeah, of course, but, for instance, I could say Sandor, or, Xin. It depends on the character really. You dont have to live through their eyes to feel for em, although, certainly, it does help.

[Daeric]

Ah that bit, mind must have missed that bit out, all I can remember is him getting beaten up alot.

[Larry.]

Actually...

SPOILER: TTT

I thought the reason why Xerius was killed was because he surprised the skin-spy/mom by getting horny and trying to fuck her, when he grabbed the shemale's cock. When I re-read that chapter last night, it seemed more like the skin-spy was taken by surprise than trying to seduce Xerius.

Same result, slightly different meaning behind it, I think.

[Kalbear]

I disagree, dylan.

SPOILER: stuff

For starters, I don't think all skinspies have a dick. (Cnauir would be less happy with his version of Serwe if 'she' did, and it would make it impossible for them to take certain roles). Even discounting that, this is a skinspy; she could easily make him not do that to her if she chooses to. I thought this was more of a gotcha - that they wanted Xerius dead at that moment and that this was a way to fuck with him - and the Consult do so enjoy fucking with humans.

[Larry.]

SPOILER: more stuff

Yes, I know they come in both sexes. Also, looking at what happened there, the simplest explanation is that the skin-spy's cover was blown. The essential situation had not changed for the Nansur: Conphas still had the 'field,' according to Xerius. There were indications that what he had planned was still going to take place, regardless of others knowing now that the Nansurium were not of the Tusk. Also, as shown at the end of TWP, the skin-spies do not have autonomy. As far as I can recall, there was no mention by Aurang of a need to do anything about Xerius. 'Mom' was to apparently maintain her cover as long as possible, but situation had changed and her cover was about to be blown. That doesn't speak of premeditation as much of a last resort situation.

[Mackaxx]

Yep, im going to have to disagree, twas no accident, otherwise, it would have almost certainly been en femme

[Happy Ent]

I had just re-read that part as well, and I don't know what to think. Some details:

SPOILER: TTT

1) Skin-spies can change sex at will. One of faux-Serwë's brothers becomes Serwë while Cnaiür buries the first version. Big C does not seem to complain about the sex afterwards.

2) I see no reason why the Consult wants to kill Xerius now. As far as I understand, Istryia was against the whole plot of betraying the Holy War. And so was OldGuyWhoTurnedOutToBeASkinSpy, wasn't he? (Help me out here.) The Consult wants the Holy War to succeed, in order to wipe out the Cishaurim whom they consider their main enemies.

3) Or am I getting close to understanding it all now? The Consult priorities have changed. First, they wanted the Holy War to succeed, which means they did not like Xerius/Conphas' plan. (So why didn't they kill Xerius before and replace him?) Now they just want to kill the Dunyain. (No. That can't be true. They need to learn more, which is why they don't kill Kellhus later, either.)

4) Fourth try: The Consult objective is to get to Kelly and Moe, in order to understand them. The only thing that has changed from the beginning of the Holy War is that they have realised that the Cishaurim are not the main enemy, so killing them is futile. (Which is why the Holy War is no longer essential.) Instead, the Dunyain are the main enemy.

Hm... I really don't understand it.