I Need Support for This Whole Bakker Thing

[Asa]

First book seems to pick up with the next POV, the emperor Xerius (or whatever) though I'm having a hard time figuring out what the hell is going on exactly. Some dudes are pissed at other dudes and the emperor is trying to regain former glory...somehow through the use of some badass...nephew? Am I close?

Yeah, the plan made no sense to me at first either. It makes some more sense by the end of the book. Kinda.

[Mackaxx]

Well, no problems with it here. Before anyone goes off half cocked at that statement I;m just saying I didn't have a problem with it. Nothing else

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Well, no problems with it here. Before anyone goes off half cocked at that statement I;m just saying I didn't have a problem with it. Nothing else

What the hell is that supposed to mean???? I can't believe you!

[Hark]

I'm almost finished with book two, The Warrior Prophet. Sadly, it's become clear to me that R. Scott Bakker is just not for me. I don't *dislike* the book. It just fails to make me give a damn. I do find it boring. His prose is beautiful. I've actually paused and admired the seemingly unlimited number of ways he can turn a phrase. But it doesn't make for a compelling story.

Kellhus' character is taking on farsical proportions. Cnaiur, the most interesting character in Book 1, has been pushed to the back burner. Esmi bewitched is not nearly as interesting as Esmi the whore-savant. Akka is starting to remind me of Catelyn Stark.

I thought book 2 was supposed to be the good one. Someone please tell me TTT is better. I've got about 150-200 pages to go in TWP. (I just read the part when Comphas wakes up surprised to see Martemus standing over him.)

[squiddly]

Dunno, but I thought TDTCB was much better then TWP.

[Ashara]

I agree. Book 1 was much more peculiar.

[Durckad]

Yeah, the plan made no sense to me at first either. It makes some more sense by the end of the book. Kinda.

I found that entire chapter hilarious actually. Initially, Xerius struck me as some overambitious fool with delusions of grandeur about his own intellect, cunning, and general badassness, while regarding everyone around as some idiotic fool.

I don't know why, but that first Xerius chapter was, probably unintentionally, hilarious.

Dunno, but I thought TDTCB was much better then TWP.

Personally.... I enjoyed TWP more than TDTCB.... if only because TDTCB is just a giant-ass set-up book. Things happen in the sense that things just start happening. Xerius starts plotting. Kelhus starts manipulating. Achamian starts whining. Etc, etc.

[Jora]

unintentionally hilarious

Very unlikely. What you felt is how Xerius is supposed to be seen by the reader.

[Caligula_K]

I found that entire chapter hilarious actually. Initially, Xerius struck me as some overambitious fool with delusions of grandeur about his own intellect, cunning, and general badassness, while regarding everyone around as some idiotic fool.

I don't know why, but that first Xerius chapter was, probably unintentionally, hilarious.

I'm pretty sure thats how Bakker wanted you to see Xerius.

[Durckad]

I'm pretty sure thats how Bakker wanted you to see Xerius.

Good.

I was kind of unsure about that upon recollection.

[Mackaxx]

What the hell is that supposed to mean???? I can't believe you!

[Mauvka]

I finished TWP yesterday and I thought it was great.

Whoever postulated that most people will greatly prefer Erickson of Bakker, one over the other, is probably correct. Wjile I am reading both series, I enjoy Bakker much more.

The pace of TWP was faster than TDtCB, and I liked most of the POVs. Kelhus does not irritate me in the least, because I consider him more a focus character than a major character: The focus of the story seemed to be less on what Kelhus does and more on how the other characters react. Each POV character has an opinion of Kelhus that reflects on his own personality. So Conphas immediately sees a manioulator, Achamian sees the Harbringer, Saubon sees the justification for his own ambitions... Do I cheer for the characters who oppose him? Unless they're the Consult, yes. But Ilike the concept of the Dunyan. The one thing that would ruin Kelhus for me were if he were to grow a conscience and become dominated by his emotions. Then, he'd be just another all-powerful character.

I want to thank all the people who marked spoilers on this thread, because I was able to follow it without finding out much about what happens in the series.

[Larry.]

I started re-reading TWP for the fourth time last night and I think you sum up the point of Kellhus quite succintly - what Kellhus is depends upon the person trying to judge/weigh him according to his/her yardsticks. Who Kellhus is...well, that's a different matter than what the other characters (or often, ourselves) see.

[Mauvka]

Another thought just struck me:

"Kelhus" sounds remarkably like "callous."

[Kalbear]

I absolutely disagree, dylan. What Kellhus is never, ever changes - and that is the point of him. He is Truth. What people's subjective view of him is does not change who he is in the slightest; he might adapt his behavior to suit his needs or come up with some ridiculous power to find water because it's convienent to the plot, but Kellhus simply is Kellhus; it is what others see in him that is different.

That's why Akka's revelation to Esme is so painful to her; she loves him, but what does Kellhus see in Esme? Does he see love? No, because that isn't who Kellhus is or is capable of being.

I liked the series, but with one proviso: If Kellhus ends up being the ultimate hero, this will be a crap series for precisely the 'I'm the best there is at everything, look at me kick ass' angle it implies. I will be thrilled with the series if he ends up being the failure, the enemy of life and love, and I think that's set up well throughout the series if Bakker chooses to go there. What I wonder though is whether he will or not; Bakker doesn't seem to have made up his mind.

That all being said, I really am getting tired of the rape theme and the glorification of it in the series. Really, REALLY tired. It might be realistic. It might be reasonable given the setting and timeline. I don't really care; it disgusts me.

[Larry.]

I don't think we're in disagreement, actually. Look at how I italicized things - for the first, What he is (meaning in terms of how he's viewed) changes a lot from person to person, but when looked as a whole, yes indeed, he doesn't change one bit. That is the who of Kellhus.

Kellhus is no 'hero' - he is what he is, ever changing in the eyes of others while staying outside of those perceptions as well. And at the end of TTT which closes the PoN arc, he's....well...there's two more series that apparently will involve him and I'll leave it at that.

As for the rape, I think it's shown in a way that makes it even worse than the physical taking of another. In TWP, there's a scene about 3/5 in, where Kellhus and Esmi are alone. In that, I think Bakker's views on the subject are made quite clear, even if the dialogue focuses more on how men want to control the objects of their hunger since they cannot control the hunger itself. This certainly isn't an easy series to read, as it seems to demand to be re-read multiple time to consider what is being said in the dialogue and in the action.

[Kalbear]

Actually, it's Conphas and Cnaiur that bugs me the most of the various rape scenes depicted in the novel, but again - it doesn't matter that Bakker views rape as bad. It's simply not something that I want at all to be the primary focus of a story without having a significant part of the story devoted to vengeance of that.

I don't believe that Bakker believes rape is a good thing. I'm saying that it doesn't matter. I know the passage that you're talking about and sure, it's great, but Kellhus explaining to Esme his feminist ideals is meaningless because Kellhus is meaningless; he had something to gain from Esme, and thus told her what she wanted to hear.

As to the 'what vs who' argument - you really didn't make that particularly clear in your argument. Instead of clever uses of the english language to not illustrate your point, you might try just saying what you mean. Or, I'll try and continue to interpret your italicisms in interesting way. What does is mean? I think it means you're pro-Goodkind.

[Mackaxx]

The, ah, the rape thing. I'd love to know how it actualy is glorified?

Now, the killing, the fighting and such, I'm not even sure that THAT is glorified in the long run, the rape? Your going to have a hard time convincing me of such.

Its a crazy double standard, to not worry about all the killing and such, to not have a problem with it, and yet, get ones knickers in a twist over rape?

I don't think either are glorified, but, of the two, i'd say the killing and atrocities are far more likely to be percieved as such, than the rape.

[Xray the Enforcer]

I don't think Kal is claiming "glorification" at all -- he states that he's clued in that Bakker also thinks rape is bad. I think Kal objects to having it play such a prominent role in the story for very little purpose vis a vis the narrative arc. (kal, am I at least close in my explanation?)

[Kalbear]

Spoilers follow for the series:

You know how I know that rape was glorified? Because folks cheered that Conphas was raped. In this thread, in other threads, people believed he 'deserved' that fate.

As to the killing vs. rape bit: the rape scenes were described in far more detail when they were happening to a character that was a PoV than any of the death scenes of a PoV (example: Conphas' rape vs. Conphas' death). GRRM has raping galore in his books; the difference is that it's treated the same (or with less detail) than the killing. Esme's rape via Consult went on for what, two pages? That's glorification.

It's glorified in the same way that, oh, sex is glorified in GRRM books, xray. I'm not saying Bakker is all 'w00t w00t rape'. I'm saying that rape takes a far more prominent role in the story with far more detail than is required or useful, and thus is glorified. In the same way violence is glorified in the media - rape is glorified because Bakker spends so much time paying actual attention to it. So yeah, pretty much, xray.