Black Crow Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 To be fair the description of the Others/Sidhe as beautiful doesn't (or hasn't yet) appeared in the books, but in an artist's brief by GRRM:'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'Mind you it could be argued its implied in the story of the Nights King and the Queen of Faerie.Interestingly I had a flick through the new book "Inside HBO's Game of Thrones" the other day - typical TV tie-in, basically a hard copy of the special features in the DVD, but it did include an early concept drawing for the Others which wasn't bad. Those who appeared at the end of Season 2 looked fairly close to it - but lacked the ethereal quality of GRRM's textual descriptions and the art realisations by Picacio and Patterson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Regarding the use of magic and it being a double-edged sword....perhaps the "hammer of the waters" that the Children called down upon the Neck in desperation were an asteroid filled with dragons, AND sharing their magic with the First Men provided them with the unintended ability to form wights from their dead...both of these things would have been unintended consequences of using magic. So, the Wall was necessary to contain the magic that produced wights AND to keep dragons away from the Lands of Always Winter.Or are these old thoughts that I haven't gotten to yet? I am reading the old Heresy threads, but I'm not even through the first one yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 no, we've never discussed asteroids filled with dragons before, just you know, the normal stuff like dragons escaping from the moon when it cracked open and the hammer of the waters being an asteroid :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 no, we've never discussed asteroids filled with dragons before, just you know, the normal stuff like dragons escaping from the moon when it cracked open and the hammer of the waters being an asteroid :)No, I didn't mean it the way you made it sound. The dragons in the asteroids was not my idea, what I mean to focus on was the use of magic, it's double-edged nature with unintended consequences, and the Wall being the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Well the whole story is one of unintended consequences, and as GRRM is perfectly well aware everything comes at a price, especially in magic. Speaking of which, the really interesting stuff in the heresies - GRRM's Sidhe reference and all the stuff that followed, starts off in about 9 or 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 I don't read Mormont's reaction to rumors of the white walkers around Eastwatch as indifference. I think he comes across as concerned - like a man who is just beginning to realize that what he formerly might have dismissed as smallfolk superstition might actually contain some truth. He's not panicking because he's still wrapping his mind around the fact that white walkers might actually exist. The Wall hasn't blown three blasts for Others for thousands of years, according to Sam. My take is that to the present-day Night's Watch, the white walkers have largely been the stuff of legend.I did say relative indifference. There's no doubt Mormont is unhappy, but he's concerned rather than astonished. He's perfectly aware that the White Walkers exist, what's worrying him is that they're so close to the Wall - and its not yet Winter. There's a whole world of difference between chance met encounters between little parties black rangers and white rangers in the woods far away from the Wall and the equivalent of a panzer division storming down the pike in full cry - that's what the three blasts are for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 No, I didn't mean it the way you made it sound. The dragons in the asteroids was not my idea, what I mean to focus on was the use of magic, it's double-edged nature with unintended consequences, and the Wall being the solution.Sorry :)We've had a couple of thoughts about unintended consequences. We've also thought maybe that the Wall is the problem. Certainly I think we should be suspicious of magic. It certainly seems dangerous in westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Can anyone help me out with the following:One war has the First Men winning against the children, nearly wiping them out, but they agree to a pact? A second war has men nearly wiped out by cold and White Walkers, but are saved by Azor Ahai? Why didn't the Children let mankind die? And which war was a tie?I think I'm reading too much....the details are getting mixed up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 the first war was a tie - the wise of both races agree to a truce. That's told to us by Maester Luwin in AGOT in the Bran chapter in which news of The Ned's death arrives.The business with the white walkers comes later and we don't know if Azor Ahai had anything to do with it. The name sounds eastern and doesn't sound as though it was connected to westeros. One group of heresies is that last hero visited the children of the forest and persuaded them to intervene in some way - presumably then the children didn't let the first men die because of the last hero (for some reason or other). It's all very obscure - there is just the Old Nan story really and one reference to a hero slaying white walkers with a sword made of dragon steel that Sam finds in AFFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I found it very interesting that people on the first Heresy thread discussed the obsidian knives and how they worked. If the human dead automatically become wights because of some magic that was unleashed by the Children, they provided the obsidian knives as a way to break those spells...one by one. That's why wights basically disappear or dissipate when stabbed by these spell-breakers. Would the yearly gifts of obsidian necessarily have to have reciprocal gifts in exchange, or was it merely a condition of the pact? (I suppose you already discussed this also)Since obsidian is molten rock, wouldn't it make more sense that they came from Valyria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liam DarkStark Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I do think the show made the others very elegant. And their armoured appearance made me think of some norse or celtic creature. They aren't beautiful but they are structured like ice is crystally structured. But in the books I find the characters to be terrified of the others. So I think its an etherial beauty by power and erie radiance... not by beautiful features like high cheek bones or pretty eyes and hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Off Topic: Anyone think the Faceless Men use glamours using parts of the people they kill? Maybe they are so skilled that they can create powerful glamours from small things like a strand of hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon rr stark Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I'm much inclined to go along with a lot of this, especially given GRRM's statement that Old Nan's the only true history.Oh I wasn't aware of such a statement. When did he say this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 I found it very interesting that people on the first Heresy thread discussed the obsidian knives and how they worked. If the human dead automatically become wights because of some magic that was unleashed by the Children, they provided the obsidian knives as a way to break those spells...one by one. That's why wights basically disappear or dissipate when stabbed by these spell-breakers. Would the yearly gifts of obsidian necessarily have to have reciprocal gifts in exchange, or was it merely a condition of the pact? (I suppose you already discussed this also)Since obsidian is molten rock, wouldn't it make more sense that they came from Valyria?Technically its an igneous glass found in volcanic rocks.As to the annual gift, Sam finds a reference to the Watch being given 100 pieces every year and its popularly assumed that this was by way of providing the Watch with a weapon with which to fight the Others.There is however a quite different interpretation which makes far more sense in the context of the Pact. Sam says that the gift was given during the Age of Heroes, which ended with the Long Night (hence the Last Hero) and therefore pre-dates both the Others/Sidhe and the Watch. We also know that the Children routinely used obsidian (rather like the Aztecs and other Pre-Columbian Central Americans) as weapons for killing men and hunting, rather than as a magic weapon against the Others/Sidhe. The theory is therefore that the 100 pieces given each year was a symbolic gift one to each of the 100 kingdoms of men that existed before the Long Night. Its also worth noting that in the other story uncovered by Sam, the Last Hero was using a blade of dragonsteel rather than dragonglass - unless of course the two got confused over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Technically its an igneous glass found in volcanic rocks.As to the annual gift, Sam finds a reference to the Watch being given 100 pieces every year and its popularly assumed that this was by way of providing the Watch with a weapon with which to fight the Others.There is however a quite different interpretation which makes far more sense in the context of the Pact. Sam says that the gift was given during the Age of Heroes, which ended with the Long Night (hence the Last Hero) and therefore pre-dates both the Others/Sidhe and the Watch. We also know that the Children routinely used obsidian (rather like the Aztecs and other Pre-Columbian Central Americans) as weapons for killing men and hunting, rather than as a magic weapon against the Others/Sidhe. The theory is therefore that the 100 pieces given each year was a symbolic gift one to each of the 100 kingdoms of men that existed before the Long Night. Its also worth noting that in the other story uncovered by Sam, the Last Hero was using a blade of dragonsteel rather than dragonglass - unless of course the two got confused over the years.Is Free Northman still reading this thread? I just have to say that his theory regarding dragons and the Children unleashing the Long Night to destroy them was quite brilliant.If the Children were using obsidian routinely, how did it come to have such magical properties for breaking spells/killing wights?Lets just say the Children brought down the asteroid to break the neck, which unleashed dragons, then needed the force of winter to eradicate them, creating the magic of wights to do the dirty work so they could remain safe....just typing this all out makes me think the Children weren't so wise, were they. They kept using nature to defeat mankind and each "use" ended up being just as bad as the last. Maybe the Children had to build the Wall to contain magic because they cannot even trust themselves to use it? It's too dangerous for even them to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Dragonglass doesn't do anything to wights - its the White Walkers who are affected by it. If you go back to AGoT and that conversation where Maester Luwin is trying to explain to Bran and Rickon about the Children and dragonglass - and Osha keeps irritating him by interrupting to confirm or confound him, the Children's everyday use of the stuff is discussed with nary a mention of its White Walker slaying powers. It may have come as much of a surprise way back then as it did to Sam below the Fist.Incidentally, with reference to one of your earlier posts about the Wall, there seems to be no connection between the Fist of the First Men and the Wall. The implication is that its a relic of one of the lost kingdoms, but there is a strong suspicion in heretical circles that its actually a Sidhe mound or hollow hill, and that (rather than clearing the way for Mance) might account for the overwhelming assault to clear the Watch off it - in folklore the Faerie races tend to be very touchy about humans trespassing on their hills.ETA: to explain things properly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Oh I wasn't aware of such a statement. When did he say thisNow you're asking. I still haven't mastered how to search the SSMs, but if you're lucky Elena will happen by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Dragonglass doesn't do anything to wights - its the White Walkers who are affected by it.What???OK, now I'm truly perplexed by this statement. I thought Sam was attacked by wights and used dragonglass against a wight? Didn't Sam kill Small Paul who had become a wight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon rr stark Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 What???OK, now I'm truly perplexed by this statement. I thought Sam was attacked by wights and used dragonglass against a wight? Didn't Sam kill Small Paul who had become a wight?He killed the WW who was following on a wrightified garron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Sam killed an Other. The perfect irony - a self confessed craven is the only one to have killed an Other in the books so far...ETA: Though killed may not be the best choice of words... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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