Heresy 25

[Melifeather]

OK...I went back and reread where Wight-Paul and Sam were fighting and Sam used the obsidian dagger and kept stabbing him saying, "your dead, your dead", and it didn't work. Hmmm....it really makes me re-evaluate what I think about the Others.

[Melifeather]

If the Others can be killed with obsidian...something that is created with fire, can Melisandre be killed with something made of ice? And why was Ned's blade named Ice?

[Black Crow]

It has been speculated before that Ice, although of Valyrian Steel, may be named after a much older family sword...

BTW we're not entirely convinced that Sam actually killed the White Walker - there is a suspicion sometimes discussed that the dragonglass merely broke the spell that was binding him together in corporeal form and that he returned to his misty form, leaving the bones and armour to turn into a puddle.

[Little Wing]

Wait a minute, you're not Mel anymore? Turncloak! :P

It was named Ice, but still made of Valyrian steel. Though you're on to something there...

ETA: Whoops, ninja'd.

[Melifeather]

Wait a minute, you're not Mel anymore? Turncloak! :P

It was named Ice, but still made of Valyrian steel. Though you're on to something there...

ETA: Whoops, ninja'd.

tee hee! Were you confused for a little bit??? :rofl: I've given up Melisandra....kind of sad to see her go since I used her for over a year. I took her on because I felt she was a strong female character...and I still do, but I'm not sure I want to be on the side of Fire. I'm also not sure I want to be on the side of Ice either, but I'm going to try it out for awhile while I explore alternate theories regarding the Others, the First Men and the Children of the Forest.

I don't know what to think about being able to dissipate Others with dragonglass.....it makes me think they're created from magic.

[Little Wing]

They are pretty ethereal it seems.

Oh, I can relate, the COTF have been my favourite since forever, and I've always kind of rooted for the Others.

[Music Loving Chemist.]

I'm not sure why the story that the Others sleep below the ice for thousands of years still has any currency, given that we now have so much evidence of them being around on many occasions between the Long Night and the present. I think what may be confusing matters is that there have evidently been a number of long nights throughout history, balancing out the long summers, and indeed Old Nan makes a particular distinction between long nights (periodic) and the Long Night - the one that lasted a generation. My guess is that they come south with the cold every time there is a long night, but until now at least have stopped short of the Wall - hence Craster's sons, hence Mormont's relative indifference to white walkers on the shore by Eastwatch and white shadows in the woods - he doesn't like it, but he's not astonished by their appearance. as I've said before there's no hint of a bar the doors and lock up your daughters because the Others are coming reaction.

If there are tales of them sleeping below the Ice I'd say that's just GRRM's folklore version of why they only come knocking in the Winter.

As to Mance, all we really know is what he chooses to tell people.

Sorry for interrupting the current topic. But I'd like to respond to the first part of your post here Black Crow. The misinterpration of the 'sleep' done by the Others

Let me explain my thoughts, I assume that the Others have a fairly long lifespan. They're creatures of Ice and we know that ice preserves. I also assume that there aren't that many Others, nor do they reproduce at a rate like humans. (Comparing them to the COTF here.) Hence them resorting mostly to Wights when fighting.

From those assumptions, I'd like to draw a conclusion that the Others did in fact kind off 'sleep' Not an actual sleep of course, but more of a strategic retreat after their defeat during the Long Night, if they're a small group with a small growth then their loss there was a serious hit. Which would force them to a very long recuperation period; In which their gains trough wights would also be rather slow, due to the risk of further aggrevating the human populace and risk annihilation. Which could be a explanation for the asusmption that they sleep for thousands of years. Perhaps their only means of reproduction is people like Craster. Which could explain their lack of presence in the last thousands of years. Which would also explain why they didn't full out attack a large group like the Wildling horde, but resorted to needle attacks. Until their frontal attack against a unprepared Nights Watch force of course.

Anyways, due to their recent push south, I think its fairly safe to assume that they are finally confident in their numbers again, further bolstered by the massive gains in wights from the slaughter of Wildlings and Nights Watchmen... And I'm looking very forward to seeing more of them and hoping to be proven right about their tactics ^^

Anyways, I have a very tactical mind and when thinking about the Others I can't help but think of them as a faction that was on the retreat, biding their time until they have adequate numbers again for a offensive...

[lokisnow]

I think that there's no doubt that the Song (or Game) of Ice and Fire is going to be a test, but one to determine whether men can again live in harmony with the Faerie races. The real threat comes from fire insofar as it consumes everything and Mel, for example, has no qualms about immolating both images and followers of the Seven, as well as the more obvious lot north of the Wall. One of these those who are with us are against us attitudes.

Men (in Westeros at least) have proved in the past that they can live with the Faerie races, but the dragons are a different matter.

some heresy:

COTF: Ones who sing the Song of earth

Others/White Walkers: Ones who sing the song of Ice

???: Ones who sing the song of fire

???: Ones who sing the song of water.

???: Ones who sing the song of wind

it's possible that water is the fourth or that wind is the fourth, but I think there are four singing races. I think the fourth is water, rather than wind, because we have several things pointing us towards water. The drowned god, the grey king, the shrouded lord and the association of fog/mist with greyscale similar to the association of coldwinds/mist with white walkers & wights.

it's possible that Melisandre is a fire 'sidhe', she's not alive, she's not dead, she's like a 'red' white walker, made of fire, she could possibly be one who sings the song of fire.

The giants fit in here both because they are of the Earth, because they were woken by song "joramon blew the horn of winter, and woke the giants from the earth", and because they were summoned by winter. But I don't think the Giants are necessarily of the earth or of winter, I think they may be hybrids, a sort of Uruk Hai and don't fit in as an ancient race. Perhaps the giants were the world first slaves? They were raised from the earth to be a slave race to the sidhe or children? Or perhaps they are of the earth, as the children said, "our brothers and our bane"

Note that if this is so then we possibly have at or near the wall representatives/avatars from all the ancient races: Shireen&Patchface for Water, Melisandre for Fire, Walkers or Wights for Ice, and perhaps the Giant for Earth (or weirwoods).

It seems there's going to be a symphony, mayhaps.

***

This also ties into the recent conversation about the wall being for another purpose: perhaps it is to hold back magic, perhaps it is to hold back winter, perhaps it is a wall against men, perhaps it is a wall against faerie. Perhaps perhaps perhaps.

Perhaps the wall is intended as a dam, that is why Melisandre is stronger there, because the'magic' in the world flows like air, and the wall catches and collects magic into a massive reservoir north of the wall the way the Hoover Dam catches and collects water into a massive reservoir/lake.

The children and the white walkers are magical/supernatural species. Perhaps they need enchantment to survive, a disenchanted world, a modern world--that the maesters are striving towards--is the death of them, perhaps science and mathematics 'kill' the magical aether, suffocating or starving all that is magical in the world. They constructed the wall to preserve a corner of the world still subject to enchantment they need to survive. But even that is not enough--the children and giants are all but dead, and the others are perhaps launching this offensive as a last gasp at survival.

The children and/or the sidhe/others constructed the wall not as defense, but as survival. Magic was being overconsumed around the world and they were starving, they built the wall to provide themselves with the sustenance that would allow them to survive.

[Melifeather]

I'm just about done with the first Heresy thread. I can't believe its taking me this long, but there are some good ideas in there.

One last idea that really stuck with me, and then I'm probably done posting for today....even though I'm on Central Time zone....Minnesota....the American version of the North! LOL Anyways....

Stark... Winterfell... The Last Hero... The Last Hero took the name "Stark", because he was alone after winter fell. The Starks became Kings of Winter, because they rule over winter. They've defeated winter and they keep it in check. Maybe, just maybe the Last Hero was seeking out the Children to say, hey, look, I've got a dragon and I'm going to destroy all of you unless we come to an agreement. Perhaps that dragon is under Winterfell? Winterfell isn't near the coast or on a river, it's out in the middle of the North with its "insurance" in hybernation.

This means the Wall is a protective barrier in both directions. The Starks are the only ones that can stop winter and perhaps the sacrifices are part of that. Daenerys could still end up being Jon's bride, just as Nissa Nissa was the Last Hero's. He had to sacrifice his wife in the end as part of the pact. Or, Nissa Nissa was a dragon that had to be slayed.

I have the feeling that these are still not new ideas, but it's where I'm at now in processing all the ideas I've been reading on this Heresy thread.

[Melifeather]

One more idea came to me while soaking in a hot bath.....

What if the reason why Ned was so relieved that Jon was taking the black was because he would then never marry? The Starks are scarce and the Night's Watch promise not to marry. The Night King's marriage was a problem.

What does all this problem with marriage mean?

[y ddraig]

Stark... Winterfell... The Last Hero... The Last Hero took the name "Stark", because he was alone after winter fell. The Starks became Kings of Winter, because they rule over winter. They've defeated winter and they keep it in check. Maybe, just maybe the Last Hero was seeking out the Children to say, hey, look, I've got a dragon and I'm going to destroy all of you unless we come to an agreement. Perhaps that dragon is under Winterfell? Winterfell isn't near the coast or on a river, it's out in the middle of the North with its "insurance" in hybernation.

After reading about the Others/Sidhe connection in these threads, I'm more inclined to believe Winterfell means Winter Hill. For one, it's supported by real world geographical names (e.g. in the Lake District) and then we have Starfall as an in-story example of -fall to actually mean 'fall.'

Regarding the Sidhe, the name literally means 'mounds.' I don't think there's going to be 100% similarity between Sidhe and the Others, but the mounds are a big part of the Sidhe mythology, to the point of the word being used interchangeably for the people and their abodes. From wiki:

As part of the terms of their surrender to the Milesians the Tuatha Dé Danablnn agreed to retreat and dwell underground in the sídhe (modern Irish: sí; Scottish Gaelic: sìth; Old Irish síde, singular síd), the hills or earthen mounds that dot the Irish landscape. In some later poetry each tribe of the Tuatha Dé Danann was given its own mound.

I think Winterfell might have started out as a burial ground for the Kings of Winter, rather than a stronghold - at the very least, it seems to be an unusual location to build a major stronghold, and it seems to have started out quite small. IIRC, the crypts are the oldest part and stretch far beyond the castle walls. Then came a small inner keep, then the castle was built around it. Either Bran the Builder built Winterfell, burial ground for the Kings of Winter, and House Stark slowly expanded it over the centuries, or Bran built Winterfell, major stronghold of the North, upon a burial ground. Some have speculated that the original seat of the Starks may have been the Nightfort.

Now, I think there could be an interesting connection. If Winterfell means Winter Hill, hills are associated with the Sidhe - so much in fact that sidhe' means hills - and Winterfell is an ancient burial ground... that leads to all sorts of interesting questions. What exactly is buried there? The same dreadful things that lurk under the Nightfort? Dragons? Sidhe? Or are the vengeful spirits of the Kings of Winter trying to walk again?

If Winterfell means Winter fell, then that still leaves the question of what's buried there, and if it refers to the crypt and only later became a castle, of if it refers to a castle built on a burial ground.

The Stark burial rites are one of the first things we learn about in GoT, which as a whole is quite heavy with foreshadowing. Swords and direwolves to keep the spirits from wandering. Also, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, and there currently in none. There's been some speculation that this means whatever's in the crypts is coming alive now that there's no Stark there to guard it. Hm.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Off Topic: Anyone think the Faceless Men use glamours using parts of the people they kill? Maybe they are so skilled that they can create powerful glamours from small things like a strand of hair.

Well i'd like to see the piece of hair that the kindly man used to make his death face glamour. Or maybe that was a grave worm? I don't think they need things to make the glamours. They use the skins to put on new faces. But their glamours don't even have to be physically exsting people. I'm sure in certain magics that using elements of the person your emmulating makes the magic stronger. But I don't find it to be a necessary object in glamouring.

[Black Wolf Smith]

It has been speculated before that Ice, although of Valyrian Steel, may be named after a much older family sword...

BTW we're not entirely convinced that Sam actually killed the White Walker - there is a suspicion sometimes discussed that the dragonglass merely broke the spell that was binding him together in corporeal form and that he returned to his misty form, leaving the bones and armour to turn into a puddle.

Which begs the questions, what happen to the first? and Is it made of Dragonsteel?

There are too many good post for me to read all of them now. Feather, your post even seem different then before, I really thought you were someone new to heresy when I started reading your post today.

I think I have finally gone off my rocker. I started think about this a couple weeks ago, from things said here in heresy, and now can not get out of my head. I have been thinking that ptwp and AA are 2 different prophecys, with different heroes. One Hero of Ice and one hero of Fire, that Aemon and Mel thougth that they were talking about the same, but were very much wrong. Then I got to the Barcelona interview and saw this quote by GRRM.

The hero of one side is the villain of the other side.

Then someone wrote about the age of Heroes upthread and it just clicked, what if the age of Heroes is about the battle between the hero of Ice and the hero of Fire, and then the last Hero came to the CotF for help and they stopped the heroes from destorying mankind? Is that too far out there, for even Heresy?

For some reason I am thinking BSG's tag line, what has happen before...will happen again...

[Lummel]

Which begs the questions, what happen to the first? and Is it made of Dragonsteel?

Well some of us wondered if the original Ice might have been one of those fancy crystalline swords that the white walkers use, but :dunno: .

Then someone wrote about the age of Heroes upthread and it just clicked, what if the age of Heroes is about the battle between the hero of Ice and the hero of Fire, and then the last Hero came to the CotF for help and they stopped the heroes from destorying mankind? Is that too far out there, for even Heresy?

For some reason I am thinking BSG's tag line, what has happen before...will happen again...

Certainly not to far out there. There are a couple of references to history repeating itself, one the theory of Archmaester Rigney - but that might only be a loving wheel of time/robert jordan joke but there is also the dance of dragons idea with Aegon/Daenerys apparently repeating an earlier targaryen succession crisis.

I think a last hero getting the children to intervene to stop fighting between heroes of ice and fire would fit in with associating the children with the balance of nature.

[dustyboy316]

The area Winterfell was built isn't weird at all. It was built on hot springs which work as a way to heat the castle in the winter.

[Black Crow]

One more idea came to me while soaking in a hot bath.....

What if the reason why Ned was so relieved that Jon was taking the black was because he would then never marry? The Starks are scarce and the Night's Watch promise not to marry. The Night King's marriage was a problem.

What does all this problem with marriage mean?

You'll come across discussion of this as you work forward. So far as Jon is concerned we think its straightforward; the curse is that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, yet there don't appear to be others elsewhere, which is pretty astonishing when you think how long the family has been around - yes I know about the Karstarks, but they seem to be a very early offshoot. Current thinking is that this plays out as the eldest inherits Winterfell and any other male children go to the Wall.

The bit in the oath about marriage and children can be interpreted in various non-exclusive ways. The most obvious is that they started out as a quasi-religious military order, warrior monks in other words, but it could also be tied in with the Nights King business if he and his men were giving up their boys to the Others/Sidhe as Craster did.

[Black Crow]

Just a general observation on some of last night's posts - which I'm not allowed to like as that's apparently the feature which is unstable and makes the forum crash.

A lot of the stuff being mentioned isn't new and if you have the patience to trawl back you'll find aspects of it being discussed before, but its valuable nontheless, first because it provides a fresh perspective on those themes, coming up with angles and explanations we didn't get first time around, and its also vastly encouraging that fresh people are coming to much the same or at least very similar conclusions, suggesting once again that if we haven't got the answers we're at least heading in the right direction.

[Black Crow]

After reading about the Others/Sidhe connection in these threads, I'm more inclined to believe Winterfell means Winter Hill. For one, it's supported by real world geographical names (e.g. in the Lake District) and then we have Starfall as an in-story example of -fall to actually mean 'fall.'

Regarding the Sidhe, the name literally means 'mounds.' I don't think there's going to be 100% similarity between Sidhe and the Others, but the mounds are a big part of the Sidhe mythology, to the point of the word being used interchangeably for the people and their abodes. From wiki:

As part of the terms of their surrender to the Milesians the Tuatha Dé Danablnn agreed to retreat and dwell underground in the sídhe (modern Irish: sí; Scottish Gaelic: sìth; Old Irish síde, singular síd), the hills or earthen mounds that dot the Irish landscape. In some later poetry each tribe of the Tuatha Dé Danann was given its own mound.

I think Winterfell might have started out as a burial ground for the Kings of Winter, rather than a stronghold - at the very least, it seems to be an unusual location to build a major stronghold, and it seems to have started out quite small. IIRC, the crypts are the oldest part and stretch far beyond the castle walls. Then came a small inner keep, then the castle was built around it. Either Bran the Builder built Winterfell, burial ground for the Kings of Winter, and House Stark slowly expanded it over the centuries, or Bran built Winterfell, major stronghold of the North, upon a burial ground. Some have speculated that the original seat of the Starks may have been the Nightfort.

Now, I think there could be an interesting connection. If Winterfell means Winter Hill, hills are associated with the Sidhe - so much in fact that sidhe' means hills - and Winterfell is an ancient burial ground... that leads to all sorts of interesting questions. What exactly is buried there? The same dreadful things that lurk under the Nightfort? Dragons? Sidhe? Or are the vengeful spirits of the Kings of Winter trying to walk again?

If Winterfell means Winter fell, then that still leaves the question of what's buried there, and if it refers to the crypt and only later became a castle, of if it refers to a castle built on a burial ground.

The Stark burial rites are one of the first things we learn about in GoT, which as a whole is quite heavy with foreshadowing. Swords and direwolves to keep the spirits from wandering. Also, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, and there currently in none. There's been some speculation that this means whatever's in the crypts is coming alive now that there's no Stark there to guard it. Hm.

There are some differences in the Song of Ice and Fire. Although GRRM tellingly invoked the ethereal Sidhe in trying to describe the White Walkers, thus far it appears to be the Children who have "retreated" from men to dwell underground in hollow or sidhe hills. Nevertheless the comparison is telling and leaves us in no doubt as to where a lot of his material is coming from. While he's obviously putting his own spin on it, that's why some of us believe that understanding celtic mythology concerning the Faerie races is so important to figuring out what's really going on, especially given the hints as to the Queen of Faerie and the close relation of the Tam Linn story to that of Bael the Bard - which in turn raises suspicions as to what's really below Winterfell, reinforcing the idea that it too is a sidhe hill.

[Little Wing]

After reading about the Others/Sidhe connection in these threads, I'm more inclined to believe Winterfell means Winter Hill. For one, it's supported by real world geographical names (e.g. in the Lake District) and then we have Starfall as an in-story example of -fall to actually mean 'fall.'

Regarding the Sidhe, the name literally means 'mounds.' I don't think there's going to be 100% similarity between Sidhe and the Others, but the mounds are a big part of the Sidhe mythology, to the point of the word being used interchangeably for the people and their abodes. From wiki:

As part of the terms of their surrender to the Milesians the Tuatha Dé Danablnn agreed to retreat and dwell underground in the sídhe (modern Irish: sí; Scottish Gaelic: sìth; Old Irish síde, singular síd), the hills or earthen mounds that dot the Irish landscape. In some later poetry each tribe of the Tuatha Dé Danann was given its own mound.

<snip>

This is very interesting. I remember watching a video about mounds being some sort of energy node/vortex on the Earth's surface, which connected make up an energy network/grid of sorts. Maybe the energy in these nodes that the mounds cover is the life-force of the Others? They go to them to um... re-charge, and are so aggressive when someone "invades" these mounds because they are so precious to them?

Gonna try to find the video, though IIRC, it's really out there :laugh:

Also, I can certainly see Winterfell starting out as a burial ground, as you stated. And if it's also a mound... talk about Valhalla Rising!

Reminds me immediately to Poltergeist and Pet Sematary.

[Melifeather]

OK, I can agree with the Winterfell name coming from winter hill. It makes sense because of the crypts. It may have also been the spot where the Last Hero found the Children.

Here are some thoughts this morning before I go on to Heresy 2:

The "take no wives" may be part of a ritual that was meant sort of like the Catholic mass where it's "do this in memory of me", kind of thing.

At the moment, I am inclined to believe the Last Hero and Azor Ahai were two different people. The Last Hero story is unfinished, and I believe its deliberate on GRRM's part, because it would be too telling. All we know about his ending is that he found the children and they concealed him. What possible bargaining power did the Last Hero have? If he was the first Stark, (because he stood alone) why were the Children compelled to help him? You could say nature was out of balance and winter was too dominant, but if the Children had the power to bring that into check, they could have done so without the Last Hero asking.

As for Azor Ahai, it is an eastern name and I am thinking he was of eastern decent and that he sacrificed his wife, Nissa Nissa to hatch a dragon named Lightbringer. This would align with how Daenerys was able to hatch her dragons. Only life can pay for life.

Speaking of life paying for life, the Last Hero must have made some pact regarding life paying for life and that may be where the sacrificing of Stark males comes in.

Karstark. I think the Karstark cadet branch problematic if the Stark males were supposed to be sacrificed. How did they get to be the exception? And is that why their name is not Stark?

The upcoming story about the Stark women with the dying Lord Stark...what did they do when there was no male Stark heir? That must have come up through the generations.