Heresy 25

[redriver]

Okay, how is it that Mance can do glamors? That's Mel's thing, and maybe she could have shown him, but I don't think that would be enough, even with him having the ruby. Not to mention how complicated all this is, even for GRRM :laugh: I'm almost sold on Mance writing the letter, but all this glamor stuff... idk, seems unlikely.

It's not just a Mel thing.

If you haven't read The Mystery Knight,avoid the spoiler.

The character Ser Maynard Plumm is being glamored by Bloodraven using a Moonstone,not a ruby.So the concept of glamoring is not unique to Mel

But that aside,glamoring is not unique to Mel.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

If this is a coded message for melisandre. What do you think the code is? I mean there is a sort of timing in the letter. Could have seperate meaning. I don't get the whole varamyr part. What on earth could varamyr have to do with a coded message. I think the whole cloak of skins could mean that there isa glamour being worked and the cage could mean comething else.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

No several sorceries involve glamours not just mel. That doesn't make mance a sorcerer. Dall may have had knowledge but I never got the hint mance could work magic. He seemed pretty suprised by what mel could do

[redriver]

If this is a coded message for melisandre. What do you think the code is? I mean there is a sort of timing in the letter. Could have seperate meaning. I don't get the whole varamyr part. What on earth could varamyr have to do with a coded message. I think the whole cloak of skins could mean that there isa glamour being worked and the cage could mean comething else.

The connection to Varamyr is the reference to the six skins of the spearwives.A pre-arranged code,possibly.

[Melifeather]

If this is a coded message for melisandre. What do you think the code is? I mean there is a sort of timing in the letter. Could have seperate meaning. I don't get the whole varamyr part. What on earth could varamyr have to do with a coded message. I think the whole cloak of skins could mean that there isa glamour being worked and the cage could mean comething else.

I think we're hijacking the Heresy thread which is supposed to discuss Jon's future as King of Winter, but...

I think everything is fake except the part about the cage and somebody being kept warm with a cloak of skins. I think that Melisandre and Mance already had agreed to a plan that includes getting Jon to trust Melisandre and leave for Winterfell. The cage part, the warm part, and the cloak of skins part is the code to Melisandre to let her know that he has transferred the glamor onto someone else. When he was speaking earlier with Melisandre about wearing the glamor, he stated how warm it was. Like a kiss from her, and even an uncomfortable heat. He said he thinks about removing it everyday, but that everyday he decides to continue to wear it. Ultimately, he does remove it because Theon's description of Abel sounds like Mance and not Rattleshirt.

[Little Wing]

No, no - I know Mel isn't the only one, I meant she's been initiated, for lack of a better word, into the magic stuff, how can we expect for Mance to have learned the skill of making glamors?

ETA: Wow, 2nd page already? :lol:

[Black Crow]

I get most of what you were saying, but you lost me when you said that the Night's King was probably not the 13th Commander and that he betrayed his brother to make a peace with the Andals. This would imply that the Andals worship something akin to fire. Is that what you think? It makes more sense that the "fire" threat didn't come until the Targaryens.

I do think that the Last Hero was probably a Stark and that the Children of the Forest concealed him. This is probably how they received their ability to warg. But, it doesn't make sense that you say the Night's King's troubles came from the peace with Andals. It makes more sense that it came from the Others, since he married an Other.

Aren't the Mormont's Andals? There has got to be another story about how they treated with the Starks to gain a peace between the First Men and the Andals other than the betrayal by the Night's King. That doesn't make sense to me.

Its something we discussed in depth many heresies ago and still return to from time to time. There's a fairly basic problem in that the Pact according to Maester Luwin's history, lasted through everything until the Andals came, killing the Children and burning the weirwoods. Famously the North held out against the Andals, defending the Neck against them at Moat Caillin (where you'll recall there is a Children's Tower), but then suddenly there's peace and the Children have gone, fled beyond the Wall. The theory is that Bran Stark, the Nights King was the consort of the White Lady (or Queen of Faerie if you prefer) as part of the connection between the Starks and the Faerie races which had existed since the end of the Long Night, but his brother, Stark of Winterfell made a deal with the Andal crusaders to betray the Children and other old races, and they are the Others defeated in the Night that Ended Battle and chased beyond the Wall which was then taken over by a new Watch (whose oath exhibits remarkable similarities to prayers to R'hllor) as the price of peace - and setting up Stark of Winterfell as King in the North in place of his brother the King of Winter.

This theory therefore associates Azor Ahai with the R'hllorista Watch and his victory with the defeat of the Old Races/Faerie races, who until that point were co-exiting in harmony (or balance if you prefer) with the First Men.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

The connection to Varamyr is the reference to the six skins of the spearwives.A pre-arranged code,possibly.

Yeah that's why I mentioned it...lol..... But what I meant is what could varamyr have to do with this situation? Like why would he covertly try and tell mel something about varamyr. It doesn't add up. That's why I don't think he was refereing to varamyr he is referring to something else..

Okay so this is off topic but its a heresy thread so I think it could be asked here...since its more open to out of the box options....Now let's say jon does represent a more side of ice. Now let's say jon has died. Then let's say mel freaks out and gives him the kiss of life and fire cause she did not want him to die..or needed him to for this. And let's say that "fire" melts the "ice". Jon has an adverse reaction to the kiss, and creates something unkown to the series. I think that could be an interesting situation where jon has become a middle man. Maybe a keeper to the balance. Maybe the lord of harmony. XD No. but I do wonder if he could take to that kiss and something unexpected could happen.

[Black Crow]

Worth remembering that Varamyr was shot down in flames during Stannis victory over Mance and is still officially listed as missing in action. I'd very much doubt therefore that he would be invoked as a signal to Mel, who never knowingly met him.

[Melifeather]

Its something we discussed in depth many heresies ago and still return to from time to time. There's a fairly basic problem in that the Pact according to Maester Luwin's history, lasted through everything until the Andals came, killing the Children and burning the weirwoods. Famously the North held out against the Andals, defending the Neck against them at Moat Caillin (where you'll recall there is a Children's Tower), but then suddenly there's peace and the Children have gone, fled beyond the Wall. The theory is that Bran Stark, the Nights King was the consort of the White Lady (or Queen of Faerie if you prefer) as part of the connection between the Starks and the Faerie races which had existed since the end of the Long Night, but his brother, Stark of Winterfell made a deal with the Andal crusaders to betray the Children and other old races, and they are the Others defeated in the Night that Ended Battle and chased beyond the Wall which was then taken over by a new Watch (whose oath exhibits remarkable similarities to prayers to R'hllor) as the price of peace - and setting up Stark of Winterfell as King in the North in place of his brother the King of Winter.This theory therefore associates Azor Ahai with the R'hllorista Watch and his victory with the defeat of the Old Races/Faerie races, who until that point were co-exiting in harmony (or balance if you prefer) with the First Men.

There's still a disconnect for me, and perhaps if I did go back and read through the threads I'd get it.

Here's my problem with your sequence. First I'll lay out your reasoning in a way that I understand:

1) The pact with the Children of the Forest and the First Men happens, the Wall is built. There's a peaceful Westeros with the Others inhabiting, not only north of the Wall, but South of the Wall also. Why the Wall then?

2) Andals come, kill the Children when they find them, chop down weirwoods.

3) Night's King and (you say) White Lady/Queen Fairy consort (I say she was an Other) - You posit that this relationship is not objected to by the Children, and that the Others were this faerie race that were permitted south of the Wall. This is my main problem with this theory.

4) The First Men and the Andals make a new pact and together they not only drive the Children beyond the Wall, they overthrow the Night's King, and force the Others north of the Wall.

5) The new Night's Watch is now R'hllor-ized

If I've got that wrong, please let me know.

Now, what makes more sense to me is:

1) The First Men and the Children make a pact. The Others are defeated and the Wall is built to contain them. Balance is achieved.

2) The 13th Commander makes an unholy alliance with an Other and becomes the Night's King, and the Long Night ensues. (The Long Night happened 8000 years ago, while the Andal invasion happened 6000 years ago)

3) The Last Hero was a Stark, probably the Night's King's brother, the Children conceal him, give him the gift to warg, add some obsidian or dragonsteel, and he's able to drive the Others beyond the Wall again after killing the Night's King.

4) The Andal invasion comes 2000 years later. The Children flee because they're being killed by Andals and the Andals are burning weirwoods.

5) Who knows how they achieved their new pact. Famously the Starks held them off at the Neck at Moat Cailin.

[redriver]

Worth remembering that Varamyr was shot down in flames during Stannis victory over Mance and is still officially listed as missing in action. I'd very much doubt therefore that he would be invoked as a signal to Mel, who never knowingly met him.

Mel knowingly killed him.

Or perhaps not.But Mel certainly knows him.

[Black Crow]

There's still a disconnect for me, and perhaps if I did go back and read through the threads I'd get it.

Here's my problem with your sequence. First I'll lay out your reasoning in a way that I understand:

1) The pact with the Children of the Forest and the First Men happens, the Wall is built. There's a peaceful Westeros with the Others inhabiting, not only north of the Wall, but South of the Wall also. Why the Wall then?

2) Andals come, kill the Children when they find them, chop down weirwoods.

3) Night's King and (you say) White Lady/Queen Fairy consort (I say she was an Other) - You posit that this relationship is not objected to by the Children, and that the Others were this faerie race that were permitted south of the Wall. This is my main problem with this theory.

4) The First Men and the Andals make a new pact and together they not only drive the Children beyond the Wall, they overthrow the Night's King, and force the Others north of the Wall.

5) The new Night's Watch is now R'hllor-ized

If I've got that wrong, please let me know.

Now, what makes more sense to me is:

1) The First Men and the Children make a pact. The Others are defeated and the Wall is built to contain them. Balance is achieved.

2) The 13th Commander makes an unholy alliance with an Other and becomes the Night's King, and the Long Night ensues. (The Long Night happened 8000 years ago, while the Andal invasion happened 6000 years ago)

3) The Last Hero was a Stark, probably the Night's King's brother, the Children conceal him, give him the gift to warg, add some obsidian or dragonsteel, and he's able to drive the Others beyond the Wall again after killing the Night's King.

4) The Andal invasion comes 2000 years later. The Children flee because they're being killed by Andals and the Andals are burning weirwoods.

5) Who knows how they achieved their new pact. Famously the Starks held them off at the Neck at Moat Cailin.

The problem is with your chronology:

First Men and Children fought each other to a standstill but then agreed the Pact, which endured through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night, ie; it precedes the Long Night, when the Others "came for the first time" which is why with the Sidhe armies victorious the Last Hero sought out the Children to ask for help.

We don't know at this stage what happened other than that when the snow stopped falling and the Long Night ended a Wall was built right across Westeros, and that a number of the 100 kingdoms of men were lost beyond it. The theory is that the Wall was not originally a defensive one (we've discussed this at great length ever since the start) but a truce line - a demarcation between the realm of Ice and the realm of Men, just as the earlier Pact reserved the woods to the Children and the plains to the Men.

The Pact then endures through the period of strife that follows as the surviving kingdoms fight amongst themselves and consolidate into the seven big ones. Then the Andals turn up and in between conquering six of the seven kingdoms proceed to massacre the Children. They don't of course conquer the seventh kingdom - the North - because their armies are held at Moat Caillin, whose defences include the Childrens Tower. Given that this is a kingdom of First Men the Pact should hold there, but for some unexplained reason it doesn't and the Children "and the other old races" flee beyond the Wall.

Its in trying to explain this that the theory evolved of the Nights King belonging to this episode, and his downfall saw the Andals in the form of the Nights Watch allowed into the North to defeat the "others" and chase the whole lot beyond the Wall, establishing their castles along it to ensure they didn't come back.

Technically the Nights King's consort was an Other, (who officially shouldn't exist after the Wall was built) but we question whether be was bewitched of whether a Stark marrying the Queen of Faerie was part of the ongoing deal which saw the truce line established between the realms of Ice and Men, until the Pact was broken and the Faerie races betrayed - until Winter comes again.

[Winter's Daughter]

We (as readers) saw Varamyr die and warg into 'One-Eye' in aDwD so I don't know how much he plays into anything now. The only thing I can think of is maybe that "six skins" is code for warging?

[fassreiter]

The whole cage thing is another clue that Mance is behind this.Nowhere have we seen the Boltons using cages.

But we have seen one at the Wall.The one in which "Mance" is burned,watched by Jon,Mel,Mance and Stannis "for all the world to see."

I think that Alien's theory is suggesting that Mance is glamoring Ramsay to hide his own identity and to hold the Winterfell pretense together until Stannis arrives.

I love the theory and I hope it's true,but.......

I would like that, too. I just don't see it happen. How does glamoring Ramsay help hide Mance's identity if he can either appear as Ramsay or Ramsay can appear as Mance, but not at the same time. I don't think Mance is in a cage, I am hoping for the crypts. But if Ramsay didn't capture him, there is no reason to believe there is a cage at all, or a glamour-trick. If Mance wrote the letter, why should the part about the cage be true? If he wants to convey some information to Mel or Jon, there is no need to put Ramsay in a cage; he can just make something up. I don't know how the coded letter would have to refer to the Winterfell situation at all, however. Why not use a completely different code, something that wouldn't tell Ramsay that a certain King-beyond-the-Wall stole his wife if he accidentally got his hands on the letter?

I don't know. I hate for the cage scenario to be true. But the reason Bolton never used cages before could as well be the fact that they never had to deal with wildlings before. It could just be for the fun of it to put someone of the free people into a cage for everyone to see; also Ramsay might know about the manner of 'Mance's execution and was making a reference to it. We know he is someone who enjoys symbolic arrangements. So far I am keeping myself busy pretending there is no cage at all, and Ramsay just made that up. I am worried about the cloak symbolism, though, sounds like something GRRM would enjoy, with Mance having left the NW for a cloak and all... :(

The crypts are good.

[Melifeather]

The problem is with your chronology:First Men and Children fought each other to a standstill but then agreed the Pact, which endured through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night, ie; it precedes the Long Night, when the Others "came for the first time" which is why with the Sidhe armies victorious the Last Hero sought out the Children to ask for help.We don't know at this stage what happened other than that when the snow stopped falling and the Long Night ended a Wall was built right across Westeros, and that a number of the 100 kingdoms of men were lost beyond it. The theory is that the Wall was not originally a defensive one (we've discussed this at great length ever since the start) but a truce line - a demarcation between the realm of Ice and the realm of Men, just as the earlier Pact reserved the woods to the Children and the plains to the Men.The Pact then endures through the period of strife that follows as the surviving kingdoms fight amongst themselves and consolidate into the seven big ones. Then the Andals turn up and in between conquering six of the seven kingdoms proceed to massacre the Children. They don't of course conquer the seventh kingdom - the North - because their armies are held at Moat Caillin, whose defences include the Childrens Tower. Given that this is a kingdom of First Men the Pact should hold there, but for some unexplained reason it doesn't and the Children "and the other old races" flee beyond the Wall.Its in trying to explain this that the theory evolved of the Nights King belonging to this episode, and his downfall saw the Andals in the form of the Nights Watch allowed into the North to defeat the "others" and chase the whole lot beyond the Wall, establishing their castles along it to ensure they didn't come back.Technically the Nights King's consort was an Other, (who officially shouldn't exist after the Wall was built) but we question whether be was bewitched of whether a Stark marrying the Queen of Faerie was part of the ongoing deal which saw the truce line established between the realms of Ice and Men, until the Pact was broken and the Faerie races betrayed - until Winter comes again.

So, to be clear, you believe the Last Hero story is prior to a Wall being built?

The Children's Tower is mentioned much earlier than the Andal invasion. When the Children of the Forest were warring with the First Men, they shattered the Arm of Dorne in an attempt to limit the invasion, and then flooded the Neck. It is said that the Children called to their gods from the Children's Tower to send the waters to the Neck.

The pact between the Children and the First Men lasted 4000 years, until it was disrupted by the Others.

When the pact was disrupted by the Others, then the Long Night came and it lasted a generation. To me, it sounds as if the Night King's marriage to the Other is what contributed to the length of the Long Night.

Since the Andal invasion came 2000 years after the pact, they couldn't have been around when the Last Hero defeated the Others. (I keep getting confused about the timeline because the pact was 8000 years before The Conquest, and the Andal invasion was 6000 years before the Conquest, so if I've screwed something up here, let me know.)

I don't think the pact was anything more than an agreement. How could it have protective powers against the Andals? I think the Children fled, because the First Men couldn't keep the Andals from burning weirwood trees and killing Children. The North managed to retain their kingdom, and the Andals obtain the six southron kingdoms.

While I agree that the Wall was originally shorter, because the height wasn't really necessary. If the Wall was made with magic, just having a Wall should be enough. The height was added years later after the original purpose was forgotten.

The wiki is very confusing, because there are contradictions regarding the War for the Dawn, The Long Night, The Night's King, The Last Hero, and Azor Ahai.

The War for the Dawn is supposed to be the First Men and the Children of the Forest against the Others. The Wall was built after this war.

The Night's King ruled over the Long Night, but he was also the 13th Commander of the Nights Watch. Obviously if he's LC, there was a Wall.

Where does that place The Last Hero or Azor Ahai? Either they were part of the War for the Dawn prior to the Wall, or they are part of the Long Night, which is after the Wall.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

So, to be clear, you believe the Last Hero story is prior to a Wall being built?

The Children's Tower is mentioned much earlier than the Andal invasion. When the Children of the Forest were warring with the First Men, they shattered the Arm of Dorne in an attempt to limit the invasion, and then flooded the Neck. It is said that the Children called to their gods from the Children's Tower to send the waters to the Neck.

The pact between the Children and the First Men lasted 4000 years, until it was disrupted by the Others.

When the pact was disrupted by the Others, then the Long Night came and it lasted a generation. To me, it sounds as if the Night King's marriage to the Other is what contributed to the length of the Long Night.

Since the Andal invasion came 2000 years after the pact between the Children and the First Men, and the Long Night only lasted a generation, the Andals couldn't have been around when the Last Hero defeated the Others.

This is the accepted series of events. The dates are suspect however: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Timeline

Although it does list a 2,000 year gap between Night's King, and Andal Arrival.

[y ddraig]

Re: Jon, Azor Ahai or Night's King? Also featuring Targaryens & the Wall

To be frank, I'm pretty sold on Jon being AA reborn (or rather, I'm not convinced we WILL see a definite, confirmed AA, but if we do, I'm convinced it'll be Jon). What I'm sceptical about is the AA = Dragonrider = champion of fire part. What reason do we have to believe Melisandre's assumptions are true? Rhaegar's Song of Ice and Fire paints a slightly more balanced picture, after all.

I simply don't think it makes much narrative sense for Jon to be the champion of either ice or fire in a battle of ice and fire. If R + L = J is true - and I think there's practically no way it isn't - that particular combination is what makes him special. I think the point of his particular heritage isn't that he must choose one over the other. Any old Stark could be Ice, and old Targaryen could be Fire. He's the only one who's both.

All right, on to the heretical part:

A lot has been said about the Starks' connection to the Wall, the Others/Sidhe, and the CotF. Now, what I'm wondering is... did the Targaryens ever receive the heretical treatment? Some random questions:

-The Last Hero and the Long Night are Westerosi legends. They happened 8000 years before the conquest. Why, then, do the prophecies specifically link AA and the Targaryens?

-Are the Targaryens the champions of fire simply because dragons are, and the Targaryens are the only (former) dragonlords left, or is there something about their blood, specifically, that means AA must come from their line? Or, in other words, were the Targaryens singled out as the champions of fire because they were the only ones to survive the Doom, or were they the only ones to survive the Doom because they were singled out as champions of fire?

-How did the apparently Northern legend of the Last Hero travel east to become Azor Ahai?

-Dragonglass. How did obsidian come to be known as dragonless? Is the name simply a newer word that was established after the conquest? If not, what did the Children know of dragons? Is it a coincidence that the material is linked to both old Valyria and the CotF?

-In a broader sense, could it be there's a connection between the magic of the Children, and the magic of old Valyria?

-Songs. The Children call themselves Those who sing the songs of the Earth. The Prince That Was Promised has a song, and it's the song of ice and fire. Coincidence?

-Maester Aemon and Bloodraven. Two confirmed Targaryens (by blood, at least) who took the Black. One became known as the oldest man in Westeros and died when he left the Wall. The other... yeah, well, you know. Is there something about the Wall's magic that serves as a kind of elixir of life for Targaryens?

-Is there a link between dragon dreams and green dreams? Did the other Dragonlords have prophetic visions, too? Or is it a distinctly Targaryen feature?

Crackpot theory no 1:

Somehow, somewhere, there's a connection between either old Valyria in the broader sense, or the Targaryens specifically, and the CotF, the Wall, and the Long Night. Maybe that's how dragonglass was introduced to Westeros, or maybe that's how the Last Hero's story travelled east to become Azor Ahai.

Crackpot theory no 2:

AA reborn must be Stark-Targaryen, because AA was Stark-Targaryen.

Too out there?

[Melifeather]

This is the accepted series of events. The dates are suspect however: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Timeline Although it does list a 2,000 year gap between Night's King, and Andal Arrival.

Re: Jon, Azor Ahai or Night's King? Also featuring Targaryens & the Wall To be frank, I'm pretty sold on Jon being AA reborn (or rather, I'm not convinced we WILL see a definite, confirmed AA, but if we do, I'm convinced it'll be Jon). What I'm sceptical about is the AA = Dragonrider = champion of fire part. What reason do we have to believe Melisandre's assumptions are true? Rhaegar's Song of Ice and Fire paints a slightly more balanced picture, after all. I simply don't think it makes much narrative sense for Jon to be the champion of either ice or fire in a battle of ice and fire. If R + L = J is true - and I think there's practically no way it isn't - that particular combination is what makes him special. I think the point of his particular heritage isn't that he must choose one over the other. Any old Stark could be Ice, and old Targaryen could be Fire. He's the only one who's both. All right, on to the heretical part: A lot has been said about the Starks' connection to the Wall, the Others/Sidhe, and the CotF. Now, what I'm wondering is... did the Targaryens ever receive the heretical treatment? Some random questions: -The Last Hero and the Long Night are Westerosi legends. They happened 8000 years before the conquest. Why, then, do the prophecies specifically link AA and the Targaryens? -Are the Targaryens the champions of fire simply because dragons are, and the Targaryens are the only (former) dragonlords left, or is there something about their blood, specifically, that means AA must come from their line? Or, in other words, were the Targaryens singled out as the champions of fire because they were the only ones to survive the Doom, or were they the only ones to survive the Doom because they were singled out as champions of fire? -How did the apparently Northern legend of the Last Hero travel east to become Azor Ahai? -Dragonglass. How did obsidian come to be known as dragonless? Is the name simply a newer word that was established after the conquest? If not, what did the Children know of dragons? Is it a coincidence that the material is linked to both old Valyria and the CotF? -In a broader sense, could it be there's a connection between the magic of the Children, and the magic of old Valyria? -Songs. The Children call themselves Those who sing the songs of the Earth. The Prince That Was Promised has a song, and it's the song of ice and fire. Coincidence? -Maester Aemon and Bloodraven. Two confirmed Targaryens (by blood, at least) who took the Black. One became known as the oldest man in Westeros and died when he left the Wall. The other... yeah, well, you know. Is there something about the Wall's magic that serves as a kind of elixir of life for Targaryens? -Is there a link between dragon dreams and green dreams? Did the other Dragonlords have prophetic visions, too? Or is it a distinctly Targaryen feature? Crackpot theory no 1: Somehow, somewhere, there's a connection between either old Valyria in the broader sense, or the Targaryens specifically, and the CotF, the Wall, and the Long Night. Maybe that's how dragonglass was introduced to Westeros, or maybe that's how the Last Hero's story travelled east to become Azor Ahai. Crackpot theory no 2: AA reborn must be Stark-Targaryen, because AA was Stark-Targaryen. Too out there?

I apologize, you two, because I edited my post many, many, many times. Probably during and after your posts. I like what yddraig wrote, and I am leaving for a bit to read the Timeline provided by Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik. Please reread my post and re-comment. Thanks!

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I apologize, you two, because I edited my post many, many, many times. Probably during and after your posts. I like what yddraig wrote, and I am leaving for a bit to read the Timeline provided by Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik. Please reread my post and re-comment. Thanks!

Last Hero would be pre-wall. Azor Ahai *shrug*

[Melifeather]

This is the accepted series of events. The dates are suspect however: http://awoiaf.wester...ex.php/Timeline

Although it does list a 2,000 year gap between Night's King, and Andal Arrival.

That Timeline has some consistency problems also. It lists Brandon the Builder during the Age of Heroes, 10,000 years before the Conquest and prior to the Wall, and then lists him again as founder of the Wall 8000 years before the Conquest. How can he be 2000 years old?

If the Long Night and the Night's King happened during two different times, then that solves some of my confusion.