White Luck Warrior XI: 11 Hells down, 100 to Go

[lokisnow]

On my reread last night I flagged to a passage that may or may not work with what Kalbear has been explicating here regarding the Gods, what do you make of this passage Kalbear, does it confirm or disprove or neither?

For an instant, Conphas felt like a thief, the hidden author of a great loss. And the exhilaration he felt almost possessed a sexual intensity. He saw clearly now why he so loved this species of war. On the field of battle, his every act was open to the scrutiny of others. Here, however, he stood outside scrutiny, enacted destiny from a place that transcended judgment or recrimination. He lay hidden in the womb of events.

Like a God.

Note there's an inherent and interesting contradition there of being both outside and 'inside' (a womb). And on top of that there's the interesting thought that the world is often referred to as a 'womb' and that the world is inherently inward...

What is a secondary world creation other than something (a baby) birthed from inside an author, afterall?

[Sci-2]

So Bakker had a second half of the Ishual chapter he'll be giving to Pat in a few months.

Other comments hint at the possibility of short stories, maybe one about Cnauir?

[Francis Buck]

Oh man, I would kill for a Cnaiur short.

[Sci-2]

Oh man, I would kill for a Cnaiur short.

Is that the limit of your love, mere murder? The true faithful would die for a Cnaiur short.

(I'm not one those, by the way. I'd be willing to give up my little toes though.)

[Guest]

I would love to get the next part of that chapter.

I was thinking about all of the things that I believe we'll learn in the next book. Of course one never knows, but here's a list of stuff I'm expecting:

-What Kellhus has been planning all along for the Great Ordeal

-What the No-God is

-More about why souls matter so much

-More about Meppa and what he signifies (if it's anything more than just a random surviving Cish)

-What happened to Ishual (and if there are any surviving Dunyain)

-What a functioning Nonman city is like (seriously, we haven't see two Nonmen speak to one another on screen the whole series)

-More about what is up with Kelmomas

Anything else?

[Sci-2]

Well, we've only gotten the barest sense of cuisine. I expect far more description of food stuffs.

Additionally, and more seriously, I'd like to know what chanv is.

[Guest]

Well, we've only gotten the barest sense of cuisine. I expect far more description of food stuffs.

Additionally, and more seriously, I'd like to know what chanv is.

I think that there's a chance that it's a salted sorceror. I think that may be the hint about the boy who was collecting the salt "that would be his fortune." We know that chanv is expensive which implies that it's rare. And we know now that qirri is burnt Nonmen and that it is a narcotic itself.

ETA: Speaking of chanv, I also want to know if Iyokus's blinding has helped him gain in sorcery in any way. Is there any reason that someone can't use the Psukhe and the Anagogis/Gnosis? I realize that he might not be all that strong with it a la Moenghus, but if he dabbled he would perhaps be the only person ever who used a little Psukhe, Anagogis, Daimos, and Gnosis (did he join the Mandate? or did the SS come back? I forget).

[Guest]

I'm double-posting because I was rereading TTT and found a Memgawa quote at the beginning of the chapter that seems to inform this newest sample from the author with respect to circles and souls. Let me know what you think:

Souls can no more see the origin of their thought than they can see the backs of their heads or the insides of their entrails. And since souls cannot differentiate what they cannot see, there is a peculiar sense in which the soul cannot self-differentiate. So it is alwaysin in a peculear sense, the same time when they think, the same place when they think, and the same individual who does the thinking. Like tipping a spiral on its side unitl only a circle can be seen, the passage of moments always remains now, the carnival of spaces always sojourns here, and the succession of people always becomes me. The truth is, is the sould could apprehend itself the way it apprehended the world--if it could apprehend its origins, it would seethat there is no now, there is no here ,and there is no me. In other words, it would realize that just as there is no circle, there is no soul.

[Happy Ent]

-What a functioning Nonman city is like (seriously, we haven't see two Nonmen speak to one another on screen the whole series)

This really articulates something often missing in popular culture as well as genre: not the number of Nonmen we see on screen, but the depth of their stories, and the range of their concerns. We’re still waiting for a scene that (1) has at least two Nonmen in it, (2) who talk to each other, (3) about something besides Kellhus.

[Maithanet]

This really articulates something often missing in popular culture as well as genre: not the number of Nonmen we see on screen, but the depth of their stories, and the range of their concerns. We’re still waiting for a scene that (1) has at least two Nonmen in it, (2) who talk to each other, (3) about something besides Kellhus.

Nice. Most nonmen don't even have names, they just get thrown into the story as asskicking eye candy.

[Happy Ent]

Bakker’s a well-known misomeandrist.

[Guest]

I guess if you count the wight in Cil-Aujas we kinda, sorta had some Nonman interaction, but I really hope we get a lot more in the mansion in this next book.

[Rhom]

Another question that has likely been answered in the nine previous threads to this one... Does Kellhus know that the non-men have thrown in with the Consult before he sends his kids off to have incestuous sex in front of the weird quasi white luck warrior?

[Francis Buck]

Didn't Cleric and the dead Nonman King talk to each other at the end of TJE? I mean, yeah, he's a wight, and it was certainly brief, but they did converse, no? Just sayin'...

Otherwise though I totally agree about wanting to see more Nonman stuff in general -- almost as much as I want see what's up with Ishual and the remaining Dunyain (or lack-there-of).

EDIT: Trisky beat me to it.

EDIT2: Oh, and I just started re-reading the first book. I'm only a little bit into Akka's chapters, but I must admit that I'm enjoying it a lot more than the first time. I actually think that the prologue, along with Kellhus's whole bit, is one of the best written chunks in the entire series. I wouldn't be surprised if Bakker spent more time on that area than anything else in the other books (which would make sense considering how long the story had supposedly been gestating in his head before he really got to writing it). The part with Mekeretrig has one of my favorite descriptions of magic-in-action that I've ever read.

[Guest]

Another question that has likely been answered in the nine previous threads to this one... Does Kellhus know that the non-men have thrown in with the Consult before he sends his kids off to have incestuous sex in front of the weird quasi white luck warrior?

I don't think that there's enough in the text to know for sure, and I'm inclined to believe that Kellhus doesn't miss details like this.

But I swear somewhere in WLW someone in the Great Ordeal suggests that Nil'Giccas is still ruling there which we know not to be the case. I don't know if that was supposed to imply that they didn't know what they were talking about or if it was just for appearances.

I have to believe that some of the Nonmen will throw in with the Great Ordeal.

[lokisnow]

I don't think that there's enough in the text to know for sure, and I'm inclined to believe that Kellhus doesn't miss details like this.

But I swear somewhere in WLW someone in the Great Ordeal suggests that Nil'Giccas is still ruling there which we know not to be the case. I don't know if that was supposed to imply that they didn't know what they were talking about or if it was just for appearances.

I have to believe that some of the Nonmen will throw in with the Great Ordeal.

Do you think Kellhus is going to sacrifice himself to trigger some sort of tragic memory to cause them to come back to the side of the Great Ordeal?

[marwyn]

So - in anticipation of TUC I've just started my first reread of the series. It's funny how much more becomes clear at the start, because all the names now make sense right from the start, and you know what is important and what not.

Anyway, in the prologue II I came across this:

Distant figures filed between the battlements before disappearing behind stone - the elder Dunyain abandoning their vigil. They would wind down the mighty staircases, Kellhus knew, and one b one enter the darkness of the Thousand Thousand Halls, the great Labyrinth that wheeled through the depths beneath Ishual. There they would die, as had been decided. All those his father had polluted.

I'm alone. My mission is all that remains

Something that I hadn't noticed before, but apparently part of the Dunyain suicided because they received Moenghus' dreams? Or does it mean they all killed themselves (Kellhus' thought implies he really is the only one left).

And if only part of them suicided, then wouldnt it have been really easy for Moenghus to kill the rest by 'polluting' them with dreams as well?

[Francis Buck]

Wouldn't Kellhus know that at least some Nonmen are aligned with the Consult after his tussle with Mekeretrig and the Sranc he was leading?

I still haven't read WLW though (I know, I know, crucify me) so I may be off about that. I just bought the book, but I decided to do a re-read of the series first because I don't feel like I absorbed enough of it, especially after reading these threads and not knowing half of what you guys are referencing (I need to read The False Sun again as well, kinda skimmed it the first time).

[Francis Buck]

EDIT: Accidentally double-posted.

Something that I hadn't noticed before, but apparently part of the Dunyain suicided because they received Moenghus' dreams? Or does it mean they all killed themselves (Kellhus' thought implies he really is the only one left).

And if only part of them suicided, then wouldnt it have been really easy for Moenghus to kill the rest by 'polluting' them with dreams as well?

I'm quite sure it was only a fraction of the Dunyain that were "polluted". And I suppose it would be easy for Moe to do the same thing over and over again, but does he really have a motive? I thought his only reason for doing so in the first place was to draw Kellhus to him.

[Guest]

Do you think Kellhus is going to sacrifice himself to trigger some sort of tragic memory to cause them to come back to the side of the Great Ordeal?

Not sure if serious, but we did see the "Intact" reference in the last book which suggests that perhaps there are some Nonmen not yet committed to atrocity for the sake of memory.