AGoT Reread: Direwolves, Dragons [eggs], Momont’s Raven, and Cats, Oh My! Pets or Providence?

[redriver]

I'm not sure that Varys mutilating those children is canon,but if it turns out to be the case,then ,of course,I cease to be a fan.

[redriver]

He deserved his own address.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[evita mgfs]

[Little Wing]

Wow, Evita, awesome analysis! The last bit on the "grievous error" reminding you of a scene from Julius Caesar is yet another foreshadowing of things to come in Dance (assassination) that this chapter is full of. And I loved the parallels you drew between Bran's chapter and Cat's.

Now, as you pointed out, Jon is constantly described through allusions of cold, which makes me think of the heretic theories that Jon and the Starks may have a connection to Winter that they as a family/clan have collectively forgotten (but the North remembers?). We also see Jon's fiery nature - he may be cold on the outside, but he definitely has fiery emotions on the inside - for his family (the way he thinks about them, especially Arya, and how happy he is that Bran will live, and about his unknown mother and Ned's honor etc) - his family and his duty on the Wall polarizing his fate from the very beginning. . As to the Cold + Jon, he says he "often walked alone here" and "the chill was always with him here" and we find out he sleeps alone, removed from the rest in an abandoned tower - sounds much like the Night's King to me... foreshadowing his future after the assassination attempt?

Jon prophetic?

Although the bloody vision of Benjen is induced by teen angst (you're abandoning me, I hate you, I hate you!) it's still a rather chilling and mayhaps true vision... Jon sees the Wall as "the end of the world" which it well may be, the end of the world of men, separating two realms, the human realm and faerie realm from beyond the Wall (Heresy ideas again, hope you guys don't mind). And Jon dreams of his mother being beautiful (check), highborn (check), and with kind eyes (we don't know, but Lyanna was kind to Howland Reed when she protected him in Meera's story... and since eyes are the windows to the soul... well...*checks in her own book*) Also, this sounds prophetic: "and somehow Jon knew that if it (the Wall) fell, the world fell with it"

So... Targs have the prophetic gift. I feel that Jon may have it too. His dreams may also support this notion. Not just the crypt dreams, of course.

Jon the Berserker

I actually like this side of Jon. I like the wild Starks. There should be more of them. :cool4: Anyway, Berserker - a trance-like fury and the etymology of the word points to wearing animal skins, bear skins, to battle in order to emulate the beast ("turn" into them) and intimidate enemies. Very, very interesting. When Grenn and co attack Jon (foreshadowing the actual and hopefully not fatal attack at the end of Dance) he's rather cool about it, challenging them back and insulting them promptly - mouthing off and being kind of bad ass about it... but once Toad insults his mother... Jon's fury gives him strength to slip like an eel from the grasp of one of his brothers and furiously attacks Toad, almost suffocating him and sending him to Maester Aemon promptly. We see Jon's berserker side, which we'll see again in the future, with him even blacking out during a fight in the practice yard and not remembering parts of it and people having to drag him away to make him stop. (A short aside: Woe to some black brothers when this Jon wakes up... :devil: )

Jon's Teachers

In this chapter Jon has three crows as teachers (Thorn, Benjen and Noye) and a small lion (Tyrion). The three crows don't offer much comfort and may not seem friendly, but they are right - at least Benjen and Noye - and are cruel to be kind... it's what he needs to hear. Tyrion's advice is short and sweet, but also necessary at this point for Jon and his growing pains... If we eliminate Thorn as a real, useful teacher/guide - then we are left with three - Benjen, Noye and Tyrion. Some discussions over at the Heresy channel are about both male and female aspects of the Morrigan as a vehicle of the Old Gods (the goddess that has three aspects, Mother, Maiden and Crone and shape-shifts into various animals, the crow being the most important) so this may be an instance of the crow reaching out to Jon, one of her players in the Game of Ice and Fire. (The other important player being Bran.) Or at least a nod to the Morrigan, as there are other throughout the books, as subtle as they are...

Jon's Wisdom

"... it was better not to speak of the things you wanted" - this is what Jon thinks to himself when Tyrion asks him "You do want to know what's on the other side, don't you?" Clever. Littlefinger will tell Sansa how it is very useful to know what people want in order to manipulate them. Jon knows this, has an innate wisdom about things, life, people, as young and immature he is at this point. He already knows this very valuable lesson in life... and he doesn't trust a Lannister. Clever, indeed.

A bit of foreshadowing, but probably not: "monstrous wooden cranes stood sentry up there, like the skeletons of great birds, and among them walked men in black as small as ants." Dragons on the Wall in the future, hanging over men in black as small as ants?

ETA: Forgot to mention how Noye to Jon is a bit like the Hound to Sansa, disillusioning him and giving him a reality check. This especially:

"Not like the stories your wet nurse told you. Well, piss on the stories and piss on your wet nurse. This is the way it is, and you’re here for life, same as the rest of us.” Smells like Hound spirit. :smoking:

[Fire Eater]

Good work on the exhaustive detailing evita mgfs

monstrous wooden cranes stood sentry up there, like the skeletons of great birds, and among them walked men in black as small as ants.

Dany's last POV in ADwD:

She wondered how the ants had managed to climb over it and find her. To them these tumbledown stones must loom as huge as the Wall of Westeros.

Dany may come to the Wall later as Little Wing suggested, or what's left of it after it falls.

Tyrion walking with Jon using a gnarled cane casts an image of Tyrion playing Yoda to Jon's Luke Skywalker. Tyrion is playing the sage.

Jon feels that by beating down the other recruits during sword play he will win respect and admiration from Thorne

Jon by the end of the chapter switches from gaining the respect and admiration of Thorne to the recruits.

Noye advice is akin to the advice Nick Carroway recieved from his father when he thinks about Gatsby, who like many of the NW recruits, was a criminal:

"Whenever you feel like criticizing anyone, just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had."

Jon learns that while he was a bastard, he still had certain advantages growing up that the new recruits didn't have.

[evita mgfs]

Cat: Chapter 17

In this chapter, we see Cat and Ser Rodrik journeying to Kings Landing, trying to beat the Lannisters back. They have commissioned a galley, Captained by a Tyroshi with 60 Oarsman to whom Cat paid seperately a stag each.

Cat is determined to find out who was behind the attempted murder of Bran, and she thinks she can do this by finding out the owner of the dagger, which is made of Valyian steele and unique. Cat sends Ser Rodrick ahead to the contact they hope will help give them aid and some

snip

Okay, here is a little something for both the Season and for Martin by "Nox Arcana."

:bowdown: :bowdown: ALIA OF THE KNIFE: FANTABULOUS!! BRILLIANT!! YOU COVERED SO MANY AMAZING POINTS! I LOVED THIS!

I enjoyed how you compared Varys to a spider, even in his attire – always wearing silk.

Cat: Chapter 17

SNIP

I'm afraid that I don't have as much mammal imagry as I do "Arthropods" and "Ornithology," (though birds are warm blooded), and while some birds are Predators, ALL spiders are.

While Scientists still disagree on the origin of birds, the Spiders backstory is a little more intrigueing.

There was once a young Greek Maiden named Arachne whose weaving was legendary, so one day, she challenged Athena who was not only the goddess of war, but also the Patron of art, to a weaving contest.

There are two endings to this legend.

One is that Arachne defeated Athena, and in her fury, Athena cursed her and her descendents to spend the rest of their days weaving. The other is that Athena defeated Arachne, but because she was so arrogant to challenge a goddess, in punishment, she and her descendents would spend the rest of their days weaving and catching prey, useful creatures of both beauty and horror.

Varys likes to wear silk, and he also employs his "children," or his "birds" to watch, report and find out useful information, and then he just waits, hidden in the shadows for the perfect time to strike, almost like the wolf spider who actually doesn't weave a web, but is big enough, it can bring down a small bird.

The disturbing imagry of this is it appears that Varys perhaps mutes his "birds" maybe by having their tongues cut out. He has been mutilated, so it wouldn't be surprising he did the same thing as well, calling into play the fact that Varys is somewhat of a Predator to order such tactics against the helpless so that only he can decipher their information.

Varys does weave his web, enough that it gives clever Littlefinger pause. But, even Cat questions whether Littlefinger is wise, which is a big difference from being clever.

And like the Spiders children, they too hide in shadows, whether it's in the guise of an innocent child like Claudia from "Interview with a Vampire," or truly in the shadows of the City and the Red Keep, waiting to catch their prey.

As to Varys true nature and intenitions, it's unknown. He could truly care about the Realm and is willing to go to Machiavellian lengths to secure it's best. Varys was truly shocked at Neds death, and seemed to like him.

It's also said of the Spider that if it were not for it's existance, pestilence would abound, so I suppose it would be enlightening to see who were Vary's targets, and if on some level he isn't helping to keep out even worse elements of Courtly "pestilence" and corruption.

The only glitch in this arguement is his plotting against Rhaegar and Rhaella who were reputed to be good people, poisoning the water with his venom even more between Aerys and his son.

I love all the symbology and metaphor concerning Varys as a spider. You are right on the money with the Greek mythology story, and my Online Dictionary of Symbology in Literature also references this myth. I will post the SPIDER symbolism separately, though, since I wanted to mention another literary reference regarding Varys: Fagin in Charles Dickons’ Oliver Twist.

Fagin is physically ugly, but he lures children to him and trains them to pickpocket and commit all manner of crimes, which reminds me of Varys gathering his little birds to do his spying and reporting back to him. Fagin, however, manipulates others for his own personal gain, accumulating the wealth of his ill-gotten gains for he is a self-admitted miser. He fears more that the children will reveal his identity and the litter of pickpockets he amasses than he does that these children, if and when caught, many pay with their lives by being hanged for their crimes.

I take heart in the “good” things you observed in Varys and I hope he does not prove to be all bad – although I am holding out on other characters proving to be not-all bad as well, like the Faceless Men, the Kindly Man, Waif, Bloodraven, Leaf, and the CotF!

Littlefinger wears a silver mockingbird on his cloak.

Cat thinks he has always loved silver, and in the notorious legend of the Wolfman, a silver bullet was the only way to kill them. Brandon Stark had the "wolfs blood" and LF could not kill him, nor prevent the wolves from taking away the woman he loved.

Like the mockingbird, LF mimics the "sounds" of others, adjusting himself and fitting in with those he wants both wants to impress and destroy, parroting back to them what they hear. Those who hear him can't tell the difference between sincerity and guile.

• Great information about the mockingbird. I will add that I was taught in college that SILVER represents ‘betrayal’ – which fits Littlefinger as well.
  

• Also, with the advent of The Hunger Games novels by Suzanne Collins, the mockingbird in literature is embracing an entirely new meaning, and I quoted the information from the Wiki about the advent of the “mockingjay”, bird created by the Capitol’s genetically altered jabberjays mating with the mockingbird.
  

“During the Dark Days, the Capitol creating a specially enhance genetic animal mutations, also called 'mutts'. One of them was a Jabberjay, which was a bird that was able to fly out, record human conversations, fly back to the Capitol, and let them know of any plans/plots of the rebels. Once the rebels found out how their secrets were becoming known in the Capitol, they fed the Jabberjays endless lies. When the Capitol realized that the joke was on them, they released the Jabberjays into the wild to die. Die they did, but before that, they mated with female mockingbirds, creating Mockingjays. Mockingjays can mimic human tones and notes, mostly song tunes.

Mockingjays are an animal that the Capitol never intended on existing, and now there are thousands. It is a reminder that the Capitol made a mistake, slipped up, wasn't perfect. The Capitol is flawed because of the Mockingjay's very existence, just like they are flawed by Katniss and Peeta's winning the Games, becoming a pair of Victors, and using their own rules/plans against them.” http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_the_mocking_bird_have_anything_to_do_with_the_hunger_games

And finally, to Cat, our only mammal.

After reading this chapter on her, I am forced to conclude she is decidely UN-feline in any way. She is not patient, nor does she lie in wait for her prey. Without attempting to get the lay of her hunting ground, she rides right into a trap.

Though she did defeat her sons attacker, she was at least in a symbolic way, declawed as her hands would be no longer be as dextrous as they once were. Two of her fingers on her left hand no longer bend, so she wouldn't even be able to grip a weapon properly if she had to protect herself.

Cats are notoriously patient, stalking their prey for however long it takes them to allow for the maximum victory. Cats are also quiet and watchful; they're watchful even when they're asleep. And, it's almost impossible to sneak up on a cat.

Cat is reckless and rushes in with only the current task at hand, whether it's kidnapping Tyrion or letting Jaimie go behind Robbs back, irregardless of the purity of the motives.

Cats are curious, but rarely are reckless, and that they have nine lives is a testament to where their curiosity sometimes leads them.

It's said with a cat, the next life is better than the last.

Cats can sense the presense of danger, and they know those who do not like them, or who is out to get them.

I do think that Cat is more like her family's sigil, the fish.

She has been tricked, baited, hooked by misinformation, and caught in dangerous waters where she is the prey. She does get another "life," but not one where her fate is any better.

This is not an indictment of Cat, nor do I hate her, but I do see why Ned didn't tell her the truth even if it hurt her.

I only hope for the sake of justice that undead Cat lives up to her name.

• Awesome observation that Cat is more “fish than feline”. I tend to agree. I love the declawed observation as well.
  

Alia, you did a bang up job. This summary was beautifully written an coherent, easy to follow and filled with insightful comments about Martin’s use of animal mythologies and associations. This was a joy to read!

I will try to use the emoticoms – but whenever I do, I lose my post – so I have been avoiding them of late!

[evita mgfs]

Wow, Evita, awesome analysis! The last bit on the "grievous error" reminding you of a scene from Julius Caesar is yet another foreshadowing of things to come in Dance (assassination) that this chapter is full of. And I loved the parallels you drew between Bran's chapter and Cat's.

Now, as you pointed out, Jon is constantly described through allusions of cold, which makes me think of the heretic theories that Jon and the Starks may have a connection to Winter that they as a family/clan have collectively forgotten (but the North remembers?). We also see Jon's fiery nature - he may be cold on the outside, but he definitely has fiery emotions on the inside - for his family (the way he thinks about them, especially Arya, and how happy he is that Bran will live, and about his unknown mother and Ned's honor etc) - his family and his duty on the Wall polarizing his fate from the very beginning. . As to the Cold + Jon, he says he "often walked alone here" and "the chill was always with him here" and we find out he sleeps alone, removed from the rest in an abandoned tower - sounds much like the Night's King to me... foreshadowing his future after the assassination attempt?

Jon prophetic?

Although the bloody vision of Benjen is induced by teen angst (you're abandoning me, I hate you, I hate you!) it's still a rather chilling and mayhaps true vision... Jon sees the Wall as "the end of the world" which it well may be, the end of the world of men, separating two realms, the human realm and faerie realm from beyond the Wall (Heresy ideas again, hope you guys don't mind). And Jon dreams of his mother being beautiful (check), highborn (check), and with kind eyes (we don't know, but Lyanna was kind to Howland Reed when she protected him in Meera's story... and since eyes are the windows to the soul... well...*checks in her own book*) Also, this sounds prophetic: "and somehow Jon knew that if it (the Wall) fell, the world fell with it"

So... Targs have the prophetic gift. I feel that Jon may have it too. His dreams may also support this notion. Not just the crypt dreams, of course.

Jon the Berserker

I actually like this side of Jon. I like the wild Starks. There should be more of them. :cool4: Anyway, Berserker - a trance-like fury and the etymology of the word points to wearing animal skins, bear skins, to battle in order to emulate the beast ("turn" into them) and intimidate enemies. Very, very interesting. When Grenn and co attack Jon (foreshadowing the actual and hopefully not fatal attack at the end of Dance) he's rather cool about it, challenging them back and insulting them promptly - mouthing off and being kind of bad ass about it... but once Toad insults his mother... Jon's fury gives him strength to slip like an eel from the grasp of one of his brothers and furiously attacks Toad, almost suffocating him and sending him to Maester Aemon promptly. We see Jon's berserker side, which we'll see again in the future, with him even blacking out during a fight in the practice yard and not remembering parts of it and people having to drag him away to make him stop. (A short aside: Woe to some black brothers when this Jon wakes up... :devil: )

Jon's Teachers

In this chapter Jon has three crows as teachers (Thorn, Benjen and Noye) and a small lion (Tyrion). The three crows don't offer much comfort and may not seem friendly, but they are right - at least Benjen and Noye - and are cruel to be kind... it's what he needs to hear. Tyrion's advice is short and sweet, but also necessary at this point for Jon and his growing pains... If we eliminate Thorn as a real, useful teacher/guide - then we are left with three - Benjen, Noye and Tyrion. Some discussions over at the Heresy channel are about both male and female aspects of the Morrigan as a vehicle of the Old Gods (the goddess that has three aspects, Mother, Maiden and Crone and shape-shifts into various animals, the crow being the most important) so this may be an instance of the crow reaching out to Jon, one of her players in the Game of Ice and Fire. (The other important player being Bran.) Or at least a nod to the Morrigan, as there are other throughout the books, as subtle as they are...

Jon's Wisdom

"... it was better not to speak of the things you wanted" - this is what Jon thinks to himself when Tyrion asks him "You do want to know what's on the other side, don't you?" Clever. Littlefinger will tell Sansa how it is very useful to know what people want in order to manipulate them. Jon knows this, has an innate wisdom about things, life, people, as young and immature he is at this point. He already knows this very valuable lesson in life... and he doesn't trust a Lannister. Clever, indeed.

A bit of foreshadowing, but probably not: "monstrous wooden cranes stood sentry up there, like the skeletons of great birds, and among them walked men in black as small as ants." Dragons on the Wall in the future, hanging over men in black as small as ants?

ETA: Forgot to mention how Noye to Jon is a bit like the Hound to Sansa, disillusioning him and giving him a reality check. This especially:

"Not like the stories your wet nurse told you. Well, piss on the stories and piss on your wet nurse. This is the way it is, and you’re here for life, same as the rest of us.” Smells like Hound spirit. :smoking:

:bowdown: :bowdown: LITTLE WING: THANK YOU FOR THE GREAT, DETAILED RESPONSE. I really was carried away in that POV –

There was so much in Jon’s POV that seemed significant in relevance to so many of Martin’s themes – it is even like the Wall is the knot where these threads come together – the end of the line even, like Jon says the end of the world, and Maester Aemon even says it in an upcoming Tyrion POV. “The Wall” may be the fictional “end” – and I loved the idea of the dragons hanging from the Wall – what an image that makes. And Bran sees more dragons, sort of, in his vision, so maybe the Wall will have their own ice dragons eventually.

Then I started listening to the audio recordings, and if they don’t make me see even more ideas all linking together, even minor things like the windows and doors as symbols.

Feel free to link in Heresy ideas. I like their ideas, and this is a good way to follow them from their onset in the first of Martin’s books. I can see Martin’s careful planning and organization, and I only admire him more and more as I further study his works. After being immersed in the “human condition” with Les Miserables these last few weeks, I still see the true source of evil in Martin’s world, and our world as well to some degree, as being the darkness in humankind. I imagine many families who lost loved ones to the recent elementary school massacre would echo “the gods are cruel”. [i also watch too much ID network television!]

Good call on Jon’s teachers. A student has to learn from his Frenemies as well – that is the name of a new series on ID, about friends who turn into enemies. But Ser Alliser Thorne has more or less drawn a line, admitting to Jon the weight of his grievous error. It really does point to Jon getting Caesar’d, and to Thorne being somehow apart of that plot to end Snow??? [Did Martin plant this intentionally? Hmmm.] :eek:

[evita mgfs]

Good work on the exhaustive detailing evita mgfs

monstrous wooden cranes stood sentry up there, like the skeletons of great birds, and among them walked men in black as small as ants.

Dany's last POV in ADwD:

She wondered how the ants had managed to climb over it and find her. To them these tumbledown stones must loom as huge as the Wall of Westeros.

Dany may come to the Wall later as Little Wing suggested, or what's left of it after it falls.

Tyrion walking with Jon using a gnarled cane casts an image of Tyrion playing Yoda to Jon's Luke Skywalker. Tyrion is playing the sage.

Jon by the end of the chapter switches from gaining the respect and admiration of Thorne to the recruits.

Noye advice is akin to the advice Nick Carroway recieved from his father when he thinks about Gatsby, who like many of the NW recruits, was a criminal:

"Whenever you feel like criticizing anyone, just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had."

Jon learns that while he was a bastard, he still had certain advantages growing up that the new recruits didn't have.

:bowdown: :bowdown: FIRE EATER: GREAT POST!! THANKS FOR RESPONDING!

I loved all your comments, especially your allusions to Star Wars and The Great Gatsby. We have been tying in Gatsby in earlier posts on this thread too, in regards to Robert and Ned and their relationship.

In an upcoming POV, the way Maester Aemon is described also reminds me of Yoda, the ancient sage with wisdom to impart to those who will hear. But I personally think of Maester Aemon more like the Greek prophet Tiresias, who is blind in both life and death but still a visionary in either world. Odysseus even seeks him out in the Underworld to learn how to get home.

[evita mgfs]

HERE ARE THE CHAPTERS AND THE DUE DATES FOR POSTS THAT ARE UP AND COMING. MY SON CALLED ME A “FICTIONAL RACIST” BECAUSE I PREFER THE NORTHERN CHARACTERS TO THOSE FROM THE SOUTH. SERIOUSLY, I JUST TOOK THE CHARACTERS FOR MYSELF ALTERNATELY WITHOUT REALLY THINKING. If anyone wants one of my POV’s, I will relinquish it happily.

25.

Bran IV JANUARY 12 EVITA

26.

Eddard V JANUARY 13

27.

Jon IV JANUARY 16 EVITA

28.

Eddard VI JANUARY 17

29.

Catelyn V JANUARY 2O EVITA

30.

Sansa II JANUARY 21

31.

Eddard VII JANUARY 24 EVITA

32.

Tyrion IV JANUARY 25

33.

Arya III JANUARY 29 EVITA

34.

Eddard VIII JANUARY 30

35.

Catelyn VI FEBRUARY 2 EVITA

36.

Eddard IX FEBRUARY 3

[evita mgfs]

NOTE THAT ABOVE, THE CHAPTER NUMBERS ARE TO THE RIGHT SIDE. SORRY! BUT YOU CAN LINK ON EACH NAME FOR THE TOWER OF THE HAND SUMMARY!

[Alia of the knife]

I'm not sure that Varys mutilating those children is canon,but if it turns out to be the case,then ,of course,I cease to be a fan.

I know what you mean, though I wouldn't be surprised if he did do that to them.

In real life sometimes, a victim will become a victimizer because they "learned" that was the better, more "powerful" position to be in rather than be victim.

But, before I started hearing theories about Varys "techniques," or "tools" of secrecy, the red flag for me was his plotting against Rhaegar and Rhaella, who at least according to Jorah and Selmy were noble.

If Varys truly cared for the Realm, you'd think he'd do the opposite and plot with Rhaella and Rhaegar against Aerys, since Aerys was clearly bad for the realm.

Rhaegar would have restored the Targaryen legacy and dynasty, (unless of course Varys knows something not so pure about Rhaegar and Rhaella the fandom doesn't know about-yet).

But, thats one of the reasons I think he is a Blackfyre operative, and perhaps he didn't want Rhaegar to restore Tarygaryen strength.

Hopefully, maybe it's merely a matter of Varys merely caring for his "birds" that secured their loyalty to him.

[Alia of the knife]

:bowdown: :bowdown: ALIA OF THE KNIFE: FANTABULOUS!! BRILLIANT!! YOU COVERED SO MANY AMAZING POINTS! I LOVED THIS!I enjoyed how you compared Varys to a spider, even in his attire – always wearing silk.Cat: Chapter 17SNIPI'm afraid that I don't have as much mammal imagry as I do "Arthropods" and "Ornithology," (though birds are warm blooded), and while some birds are Predators, ALL spiders are.While Scientists still disagree on the origin of birds, the Spiders backstory is a little more intrigueing.There was once a young Greek Maiden named Arachne whose weaving was legendary, so one day, she challenged Athena who was not only the goddess of war, but also the Patron of art, to a weaving contest.There are two endings to this legend.One is that Arachne defeated Athena, and in her fury, Athena cursed her and her descendents to spend the rest of their days weaving. The other is that Athena defeated Arachne, but because she was so arrogant to challenge a goddess, in punishment, she and her descendents would spend the rest of their days weaving and catching prey, useful creatures of both beauty and horror.Varys likes to wear silk, and he also employs his "children," or his "birds" to watch, report and find out useful information, and then he just waits, hidden in the shadows for the perfect time to strike, almost like the wolf spider who actually doesn't weave a web, but is big enough, it can bring down a small bird.The disturbing imagry of this is it appears that Varys perhaps mutes his "birds" maybe by having their tongues cut out. He has been mutilated, so it wouldn't be surprising he did the same thing as well, calling into play the fact that Varys is somewhat of a Predator to order such tactics against the helpless so that only he can decipher their information.Varys does weave his web, enough that it gives clever Littlefinger pause. But, even Cat questions whether Littlefinger is wise, which is a big difference from being clever.And like the Spiders children, they too hide in shadows, whether it's in the guise of an innocent child like Claudia from "Interview with a Vampire," or truly in the shadows of the City and the Red Keep, waiting to catch their prey.As to Varys true nature and intenitions, it's unknown. He could truly care about the Realm and is willing to go to Machiavellian lengths to secure it's best. Varys was truly shocked at Neds death, and seemed to like him.It's also said of the Spider that if it were not for it's existance, pestilence would abound, so I suppose it would be enlightening to see who were Vary's targets, and if on some level he isn't helping to keep out even worse elements of Courtly "pestilence" and corruption.The only glitch in this arguement is his plotting against Rhaegar and Rhaella who were reputed to be good people, poisoning the water with his venom even more between Aerys and his son.I love all the symbology and metaphor concerning Varys as a spider. You are right on the money with the Greek mythology story, and my Online Dictionary of Symbology in Literature also references this myth. I will post the SPIDER symbolism separately, though, since I wanted to mention another literary reference regarding Varys: Fagin in Charles Dickons’ Oliver Twist.Fagin is physically ugly, but he lures children to him and trains them to pickpocket and commit all manner of crimes, which reminds me of Varys gathering his little birds to do his spying and reporting back to him. Fagin, however, manipulates others for his own personal gain, accumulating the wealth of his ill-gotten gains for he is a self-admitted miser. He fears more that the children will reveal his identity and the litter of pickpockets he amasses than he does that these children, if and when caught, many pay with their lives by being hanged for their crimes.I take heart in the “good” things you observed in Varys and I hope he does not prove to be all bad – although I am holding out on other characters proving to be not-all bad as well, like the Faceless Men, the Kindly Man, Waif, Bloodraven, Leaf, and the CotF! Littlefinger wears a silver mockingbird on his cloak.Cat thinks he has always loved silver, and in the notorious legend of the Wolfman, a silver bullet was the only way to kill them. Brandon Stark had the "wolfs blood" and LF could not kill him, nor prevent the wolves from taking away the woman he loved.Like the mockingbird, LF mimics the "sounds" of others, adjusting himself and fitting in with those he wants both wants to impress and destroy, parroting back to them what they hear. Those who hear him can't tell the difference between sincerity and guile.

• Great information about the mockingbird. I will add that I was taught in college that SILVER represents ‘betrayal’ – which fits Littlefinger as well.
  

• Also, with the advent of The Hunger Games novels by Suzanne Collins, the mockingbird in literature is embracing an entirely new meaning, and I quoted the information from the Wiki about the advent of the “mockingjay”, bird created by the Capitol’s genetically altered jabberjays mating with the mockingbird.
  

“During the Dark Days, the Capitol creating a specially enhance genetic animal mutations, also called 'mutts'. One of them was a Jabberjay, which was a bird that was able to fly out, record human conversations, fly back to the Capitol, and let them know of any plans/plots of the rebels. Once the rebels found out how their secrets were becoming known in the Capitol, they fed the Jabberjays endless lies. When the Capitol realized that the joke was on them, they released the Jabberjays into the wild to die. Die they did, but before that, they mated with female mockingbirds, creating Mockingjays. Mockingjays can mimic human tones and notes, mostly song tunes.Mockingjays are an animal that the Capitol never intended on existing, and now there are thousands. It is a reminder that the Capitol made a mistake, slipped up, wasn't perfect. The Capitol is flawed because of the Mockingjay's very existence, just like they are flawed by Katniss and Peeta's winning the Games, becoming a pair of Victors, and using their own rules/plans against them.” http://wiki.answers....he_hunger_gamesAnd finally, to Cat, our only mammal.After reading this chapter on her, I am forced to conclude she is decidely UN-feline in any way. She is not patient, nor does she lie in wait for her prey. Without attempting to get the lay of her hunting ground, she rides right into a trap.Though she did defeat her sons attacker, she was at least in a symbolic way, declawed as her hands would be no longer be as dextrous as they once were. Two of her fingers on her left hand no longer bend, so she wouldn't even be able to grip a weapon properly if she had to protect herself.Cats are notoriously patient, stalking their prey for however long it takes them to allow for the maximum victory. Cats are also quiet and watchful; they're watchful even when they're asleep. And, it's almost impossible to sneak up on a cat.Cat is reckless and rushes in with only the current task at hand, whether it's kidnapping Tyrion or letting Jaimie go behind Robbs back, irregardless of the purity of the motives.Cats are curious, but rarely are reckless, and that they have nine lives is a testament to where their curiosity sometimes leads them.It's said with a cat, the next life is better than the last.Cats can sense the presense of danger, and they know those who do not like them, or who is out to get them.I do think that Cat is more like her family's sigil, the fish.She has been tricked, baited, hooked by misinformation, and caught in dangerous waters where she is the prey. She does get another "life," but not one where her fate is any better.This is not an indictment of Cat, nor do I hate her, but I do see why Ned didn't tell her the truth even if it hurt her.I only hope for the sake of justice that undead Cat lives up to her name.

• Awesome observation that Cat is more “fish than feline”. I tend to agree. I love the declawed observation as well.
  

Alia, you did a bang up job. This summary was beautifully written an coherent, easy to follow and filled with insightful comments about Martin’s use of animal mythologies and associations. This was a joy to read!I will try to use the emoticoms – but whenever I do, I lose my post – so I have been avoiding them of late!

Thanks Evita, I almost got stage fright, but then remembered you didn't expect everyone to do it exactly like the other, so I'm glad you liked it. (Can I get extra credit for the spiders :stillsick: )?The story of Arachne was actually one of my favorite stories, and I remembered it from third grade. Spiders are creatures of both beauty and horror; predators but necessary ones or we'd be overrun with deadly pestilence, so I manage to make myself appreciate them even if I make my Husband "re-locate" them elsewhere if they get inside.

I never kill them though.

But a great analysis and extraction of Jon and his surroundings

.On the Mockingbird, I had heard that same connection between LF clasp and The Hunger Games, but I'm not an authority on The Hunger Games yet, so I wasn't sure as to the details.

Cat and Cats.I find that cats are even leary of each other, much less walking into unfamiliar territory.When you see dogs, they are genuinely happy to see each other, but cats are genuinely outraged to find out that another one exists :devil:

I don't mind heresy theories either, but my take-away on Jon in summary is that all of these lessons and trials hone his strengths, highlight his weaknesses and opportunities to become stronger, as well as pinpointing the players, both good and bad in Jons world.When you are put in a position to lead, many times it's about leveraging people to their strengths, but if the successes are the only things that are emphasized, the weaknesses remain weakened, so I think Jon had to learn dicipline, so he could dicipline others.

The other thing I would note about Jon, and this is just a gut feeling and reading between the lines of the text and the Authors intent. A writer will write for affect, but then he/she will deliberately write something that you know is either a foreshading, or intended as a red herring.

For me, two examples of foreshadowing stand out.

One when Ned tells Arya that one day she will marry a King- not a nice guy, Lord, or even a High Lord, but a King. To me, that is deliberate wording that Martin uses for some reason, or another.

The second, is the mantra, "kill the boy, and let the man be born."I see that as setting up events towards Jons "death," because when he is awakened, so will the dragon in him IMHO.

We watched the last episode of the last Season, and it confirmed what I wasn't sure about. On the Wall, as well as the Wildings were burning their dead so they would not turn, so I suspect they will try to burn Jons body as the Wilding cautioned Jon to burn the body of Halfhand after he killed him, telling him , "you don't want that one coming back for you."I suspect Jons heritage will be apparent if he is burned and comes back "a la Dany."Both the sleeper and the dragon are awakened.

I also see this as an allusion to Ceasar, but we know what Ceasar had become and why he was killed, perhaps in Martins unique fashion, he suggests what Jon may become, which could be certainly as nebulous as the Night King and the Starks magical connection to Winter.

I think the cleverness in Martins hiding who Jon is through the "anti-obvious."Going back to "Dune," (and I suppose this work impacted me because it was the first time I had seen the "hero" become the Villain).

Paul Maudib became a Tyrant, the very thing he hated in order to rule.

Jons Grandfather was also a Tyrant just as Pauls Grandfather was too, so perhaps this Martins foreshadowing allusion to Ceasar, because it's in his blood.

Couple that with Neds unrelenting sense of justice and Rhaegars melancholy nature, which Jon displays in full force, but is hidden by his status as a bastard and is blamed on that.

It's kind of along the lines of "be careful what you wish for," if one thinks that Jon will be any less harsh than either of his Targaryen, or Stark ancestors, especially as both families were almost wiped out.

He may certainly look like a Stark and was nurtured as a Stark, but by nature I think he is a dragon through and through, but tempered by his Mothers kind nature.His dreams are prophetic even if his dreams are wolf dreams and not dragon dreams. There is a wildness in him that could be from Lyanna, but also a temper that indicates Targaryen.Remember Dany is always apologizing for her display of temper, and there is Aegon throwing the Cyvasse pieces at Tyrion.

So, those are my take-aways on Jon. :)

[Mace Cooterian]

He may certainly look like a Stark and was nurtured as a Stark, but by nature I think he is a dragon through and through, but tempered by his Mothers kind nature.His dreams are prophetic even if his dreams are wolf dreams and not dragon dreams. There is a wildness in him that could be from Lyanna, but also a temper that indicates Targaryen.Remember Dany is always apologizing for her display of temper, and there is Aegon throwing the Cyvasse pieces at Tyrion.

Would not want to speculate on the R+L=J. In the comparison of tempers of (f)Aegon to Jon; we really do not know from wence either (Jon or Aegon) descends. It's an unfortunate "dead end"....IMHO.

[evita mgfs]

Thanks Evita, I almost got stage fright, but then remembered you didn't expect everyone to do it exactly like the other, so I'm glad you liked it. (Can I get extra credit for the spiders :stillsick: )?The story of Arachne was actually one of my favorite stories, and I remembered it from third grade. Spiders are creatures of both beauty and horror; predators but necessary ones or we'd be overrun with deadly pestilence, so I manage to make myself appreciate them even if I make my Husband "re-locate" them elsewhere if they get inside.

I never kill them though.

But a great analysis and extraction of Jon and his surroundings

.On the Mockingbird, I had heard that same connection between LF clasp and The Hunger Games, but I'm not an authority on The Hunger Games yet, so I wasn't sure as to the details.

Cat and Cats.I find that cats are even leary of each other, much less walking into unfamiliar territory.When you see dogs, they are genuinely happy to see each other, but cats are genuinely outraged to find out that another one exists :devil:

I don't mind heresy theories either, but my take-away on Jon in summary is that all of these lessons and trials hone his strengths, highlight his weaknesses and opportunities to become stronger, as well as pinpointing the players, both good and bad in Jons world.When you are put in a position to lead, many times it's about leveraging people to their strengths, but if the successes are the only things that are emphasized, the weaknesses remain weakened, so I think Jon had to learn dicipline, so he could dicipline others.

The other thing I would note about Jon, and this is just a gut feeling and reading between the lines of the text and the Authors intent. A writer will write for affect, but then he/she will deliberately write something that you know is either a foreshading, or intended as a red herring.

For me, two examples of foreshadowing stand out.

One when Ned tells Arya that one day she will marry a King- not a nice guy, Lord, or even a High Lord, but a King. To me, that is deliberate wording that Martin uses for some reason, or another.

The second, is the mantra, "kill the boy, and let the man be born."I see that as setting up events towards Jons "death," because when he is awakened, so will the dragon in him IMHO.

We watched the last episode of the last Season, and it confirmed what I wasn't sure about. On the Wall, as well as the Wildings were burning their dead so they would not turn, so I suspect they will try to burn Jons body as the Wilding cautioned Jon to burn the body of Halfhand after he killed him, telling him , "you don't want that one coming back for you."I suspect Jons heritage will be apparent if he is burned and comes back "a la Dany."Both the sleeper and the dragon are awakened.

I also see this as an allusion to Ceasar, but we know what Ceasar had become and why he was killed, perhaps in Martins unique fashion, he suggests what Jon may become, which could be certainly as nebulous as the Night King and the Starks magical connection to Winter.

I think the cleverness in Martins hiding who Jon is through the "anti-obvious."Going back to "Dune," (and I suppose this work impacted me because it was the first time I had seen the "hero" become the Villain).

Paul Maudib became a Tyrant, the very thing he hated in order to rule.

Jons Grandfather was also a Tyrant just as Pauls Grandfather was too, so perhaps this Martins foreshadowing allusion to Ceasar, because it's in his blood.

Couple that with Neds unrelenting sense of justice and Rhaegars melancholy nature, which Jon displays in full force, but is hidden by his status as a bastard and is blamed on that.

It's kind of along the lines of "be careful what you wish for," if one thinks that Jon will be any less harsh than either of his Targaryen, or Stark ancestors, especially as both families were almost wiped out.

He may certainly look like a Stark and was nurtured as a Stark, but by nature I think he is a dragon through and through, but tempered by his Mothers kind nature.His dreams are prophetic even if his dreams are wolf dreams and not dragon dreams. There is a wildness in him that could be from Lyanna, but also a temper that indicates Targaryen.Remember Dany is always apologizing for her display of temper, and there is Aegon throwing the Cyvasse pieces at Tyrion.

So, those are my take-aways on Jon. :)

:bowdown: :bowdown: ALIA OF THE KNIFE: SUPER REPLY, AS ALWAYS!

All posters here who do an introduction may design whatever format he or she wishes for presentation. I myself vary my openings to chapters, and most times I am inspired by something someone other than me says on the thread.

You did a wonderful job, and I told you how highly Kiss’dbyFire thinks of your postings, so that should fill your heart with even more confidence because I think she knows what’s going on in Martin’s world. She even knows the names of all the actors and actresses in the series – and so much more. She has parts of the novels committed to memory – she is spot on in her observations, I just wish she had more time to post responses.

Well, your reference to the MOCKINGBIRD seems to echo in my next POV on Tyrion, so I am going to carry on the “mocking” theme in Tyrion’s III POV. Not only does Ser Alliser Thorne accuse Tyrion of mocking the Night’s Watch and their noble purpose, but Mormont’s raven chimes in to “mock” the discussion twice, which I think will really expand upon the whole theme of MOCKING throughout the novels – Mormont’s raven, at times, is a “mockingbird!”

Regarding your observation about Jon’s lesson in discipline, the readers see him openly challenge Thorne, mayhap emboldened by Tyrion’s influence, but still, Jon needs to learn the “discipline” not to speak back to his elders. Ser Alliser is a seasoned man of the Watch and the master-at-arms, and a knight to boot, so Jon should allow the man his status as an authority figure on the Wall. Instead, Jon behaves like one of those students some teachers despise, students who talk back, question their decisions, then try to prove that they know more than the teacher by recruiting supporters in the class – then gradually turning the class against the teacher. From a teacher’s perspective, I tried to imagine having a Jon Snow in my class – but I did not use Thorne’s methodology; I would have utilized Jon much differently, and I would have taught the men the importance of “team work”. Moreover, I do not believe in demeaning others by calling them insulting names. So as Tyrion says later, Thorne wears a bullseye on his chest, and Jon, as others, take pot shots at him, and it should be expected. Regardless, Jon should exercise more control of his mouth, and over the novels, he does learn when to speak and when to keep quiet, but not before some irreparable damage is done.

You also made me look at the larger ramifications of the Caesar analogy and Jon. I had not thought Jon behaved as the “tyrant” the old guard believed him to be, but that is the entire psychology of Shakespeare’s play: those who slay Caesar are hypocrites who call Caesar a “tyrant” and use that as an excuse to assassinate him in a feigned idealism of patriotism. Truly, Cassius is jealous of Caesar’s growing power and popularity with the commons because he harbors resentment toward Caesar who Cassius sees as physically weak: how can a man who has the falling sickness, who gets ill and calls out for a drink, and who nearly drowns in the Tiber be exulted as a “god” – a Colossus looming over the nobles of Rome? The only sincere conspirator is Brutus who rallies to the cause after much rumination, and through a deception sent by Cassius, Brutus “finally” joins up – only hours before the designated time the murder is scheduled.

What a neat thought that Jon/Caesar dies only to be reborn symbolically as the dragon/Antony. What follows Caesar’s rule is a true tyranny – and it makes sense that what you say will / may happen, and it even follows with the theme of Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar. Be careful what you wish for, because a worse may replace the evil that you know!

The second triumvirate of Antony, Octavius, and Lepidus prove a cruel lot, nicking off names on a hit list of any nobles who may plot against them, including their own family members. Antony is “symbolically” possessed with the vengeful spirit of Caesar, and he promises in his soliloquy that all of Rome will pay for the deed: “Cry Havoc, and Let slip the dogs of war!” So much vile and bloody retribution will rip apart all of Rome, and women will hold their infants cut to pieces in their arms and just smile, so great will be the carnage, or so Antony promises.

I think the prospect of a dragon inflamed in Jon will make for an exciting read. :cheers: :fencing:

[Alia of the knife]

Would not want to speculate on the R+L=J. In the comparison of tempers of (f)Aegon to Jon; we really do not know from wence either (Jon or Aegon) descends. It's an unfortunate "dead end"....IMHO.

I think the thing that leads me to the comparison of temper, is that often "waking the dragon," has tended to mean angering the dragon, and even if Aegon is a Blackfyre, he is still a dragon- just not Rhaegars.

With Jon, I think that "waking the dragon" is both in terms of his nature, and also in finding his true self, so for him, dual meanings.

I suppose I think of the Angevin-Plantaganet, (which Martins work, from a historical standpoint is supposed to be similar to), temper which was apparently legendary and terrible to see.

This seems to parallel the Targaryens and might hint at Jons heritage, as well as Aegons dragon origins.

It was said that many Kings from these Angevin/Plantaganet lines would fall into such anger that they would collapse and chew the rushes on the floor.

(From a modern standpoint, perhaps they had something else going on, but perhaps anger was the stress catalyst).

That sounds alot like Jon almost blacking out and going berserker, as wells as Aegon.

(The Angevin House also had within it a Cadet branch whose family name was Martel).

:bowdown: :bowdown: ALIA OF THE KNIFE: SUPER REPLY, AS ALWAYS!

All posters here who do an introduction may design whatever format he or she wishes for presentation. I myself vary my openings to chapters, and most times I am inspired by something someone other than me says on the thread.

You did a wonderful job, and I told you how highly Kiss’dbyFire thinks of your postings, so that should fill your heart with even more confidence because I think she knows what’s going on in Martin’s world. She even knows the names of all the actors and actresses in the series – and so much more. She has parts of the novels committed to memory – she is spot on in her observations, I just wish she had more time to post responses.

Well, your reference to the MOCKINGBIRD seems to echo in my next POV on Tyrion, so I am going to carry on the “mocking” theme in Tyrion’s III POV. Not only does Ser Alliser Thorne accuse Tyrion of mocking the Night’s Watch and their noble purpose, but Mormont’s raven chimes in to “mock” the discussion twice, which I think will really expand upon the whole theme of MOCKING throughout the novels – Mormont’s raven, at times, is a “mockingbird!”

Regarding your observation about Jon’s lesson in discipline, the readers see him openly challenge Thorne, mayhap emboldened by Tyrion’s influence, but still, Jon needs to learn the “discipline” not to speak back to his elders. Ser Alliser is a seasoned man of the Watch and the master-at-arms, and a knight to boot, so Jon should allow the man his status as an authority figure on the Wall. Instead, Jon behaves like one of those students some teachers despise, students who talk back, question their decisions, then try to prove that they know more than the teacher by recruiting supporters in the class – then gradually turning the class against the teacher. From a teacher’s perspective, I tried to imagine having a Jon Snow in my class – but I did not use Thorne’s methodology; I would have utilized Jon much differently, and I would have taught the men the importance of “team work”. Moreover, I do not believe in demeaning others by calling them insulting names. So as Tyrion says later, Thorne wears a bullseye on his chest, and Jon, as others, take pot shots at him, and it should be expected. Regardless, Jon should exercise more control of his mouth, and over the novels, he does learn when to speak and when to keep quiet, but not before some irreparable damage is done.

You also made me look at the larger ramifications of the Caesar analogy and Jon. I had not thought Jon behaved as the “tyrant” the old guard believed him to be, but that is the entire psychology of Shakespeare’s play: those who slay Caesar are hypocrites who call Caesar a “tyrant” and use that as an excuse to assassinate him in a feigned idealism of patriotism. Truly, Cassius is jealous of Caesar’s growing power and popularity with the commons because he harbors resentment toward Caesar who Cassius sees as physically weak: how can a man who has the falling sickness, who gets ill and calls out for a drink, and who nearly drowns in the Tiber be exulted as a “god” – a Colossus looming over the nobles of Rome? The only sincere conspirator is Brutus who rallies to the cause after much rumination, and through a deception sent by Cassius, Brutus “finally” joins up – only hours before the designated time the murder is scheduled.

What a neat thought that Jon/Caesar dies only to be reborn symbolically as the dragon/Antony. What follows Caesar’s rule is a true tyranny – and it makes sense that what you say will / may happen, and it even follows with the theme of Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar. Be careful what you wish for, because a worse may replace the evil that you know!

The second triumvirate of Antony, Octavius, and Lepidus prove a cruel lot, nicking off names on a hit list of any nobles who may plot against them, including their own family members. Antony is “symbolically” possessed with the vengeful spirit of Caesar, and he promises in his soliloquy that all of Rome will pay for the deed: “Cry Havoc, and Let slip the dogs of war!” So much vile and bloody retribution will rip apart all of Rome, and women will hold their infants cut to pieces in their arms and just smile, so great will be the carnage, or so Antony promises.

I think the prospect of a dragon inflamed in Jon will make for an exciting read. :cheers: :fencing:

The analogy of Jon and Ceasar also parallels the fact that both men were making decisions, and changing things that threatened the status quo.

But, the Conspirators who murdered Ceasar didn't realize that that would truly end any remnants of a Republic, and ushered in the age of Empire.

It was Claudius who everyone thought was lame and stupid, who wanted to bring back the Republic, (though I think scholars are split about his "good" intentions).

He was also reported to have caught a wolf pup in his arms that a bird of prey had dropped. It was said he fulfilled prophesy and would be the Protector of Rome one day, which his family scorned.

Anyhow, I think Jons murder reflects the corruption that has set in at the Wall, (as well as other entities such as the KG, the Court, etc), and signs of structural decay which seem to proceed Apocolyptic themes, so that event serves as a plot device for allowing Jon out of his vows, as well as splintering the Brothers, causing the Wall to collapse upon it's own rot, letting in the Others.

As some of the Dothraki fled from Dany, so will some of the Brothers flee the Wall and Jon, especially his Assailants, but others will flock to him as the rest of the Dothraki flocked to Dany.

I think you can see the parallel journeys of Jon and Dany, as well as some of the experiences Arya is having in terms of leadership development.

On Jons behavior towards his Teachers.

I think your insight it spot on, especially the example of Mormonts admonishment to Jon after the Craster incident, that sometimes you have to learn to follow before you can lead, is SO true, even in real life.

I also can't wait for your work on the Mockingbird theme.

The great thing about his thread is that I always learn something new, or remember something I had forgotten. :read:

And thanks for your motivation! :wub:

[evita mgfs]

I think the thing that leads me to the comparison of temper, is that often "waking the dragon," has tended to mean angering the dragon, and even if Aegon is a Blackfyre, he is still a dragon- just not Rhaegars.

With Jon, I think that "waking the dragon" is both in terms of his nature, and also in finding his true self, so for him, dual meanings.

I suppose I think of the Angevin-Plantaganet, (which Martins work, from a historical standpoint is supposed to be similar to), temper which was apparently legendary and terrible to see.

This seems to parallel the Targaryens and might hint at Jons heritage, as well as Aegons dragon origins.

It was said that many Kings from these Angevin/Plantaganet lines would fall into such anger that they would collapse and chew the rushes on the floor.

(From a modern standpoint, perhaps they had something else going on, but perhaps anger was the stress catalyst).

That sounds alot like Jon almost blacking out and going berserker, as wells as Aegon.

(The Angevin House also had within a Cadet branch, the family name Martel).

The analogy of Jon and Ceasar also parallels the fact that both men were making decisions, and changing things that threatened the status quo.

But, the Conspirators who murdered Ceasar didn't realize that that would truly end any remnants of a Republic, and ushered in the age of Empire.

It was Claudius who everyone thought was lame and stupid, who wanted to bring back the Republic, (though I think scholars are split about his "good" intentions).

He was also reported to have caught a wolf pup in his arms that a bird of prey had dropped. It was said he fulfilled prophesy and would be the Protector of Rome one day, which his family scorned.

Anyhow, I think Jons murder reflects the corruption that has set in at the Wall, (as well as other entities such as the KG, the Court, etc), and signs of structural decay which seem to proceed Apocolyptic themes, so that event serves as a plot device of allowing Jon out of his vows, as well as splintering the Brothers, causing the Wall to collapse upon it's own rot, letting in the Others.

As some of the Dothraki fled from Dani, so will some of the Brothers flee the Wall and Jon, especially his Assailants, but others will flock to him as the rest of the Dothraki flocked to Dany.

I think you can see the parallel journeys of Jon and Dany, as well as some of the experiences Arya is having in terms of leadership development.

On Jons behavior towards his Teachers.

I think your insight it spot on, especially the example of Mormonts admonishment to Jon after the Craster incident, that sometimes you have to learn to follow before you can lead, is SO true, even in real life.

I also can't wait for your work on the Mockingbird theme.

The great thing about his thread is that I always learn something new, or remember something I had forgotten. :read:

And thanks for your motivation! :wub:

:bowdown: :bowdown: ALIA OF THE KNIFE: WOW! GREAT ANALOGIES WITH HISTORY! I can see this all coming to pass, :agree: and as you said, other stories are paralleling one another in so many marked ways. In my mockingbird analysis, I more or less prove that Thorne is part of the conspiracy to kill Jon, at least if we follow Martin’s subtle clues early on. Thorne is not the sage on the stage, he’s the guide “on the side” so to speak. Bowen Marsh is the “sage” executing the action in Ser Alliser’s place, but either way, Alliser will be a foe to be reckoned with.

Your response brings me back to my original theory: the violations of the laws of hospitality! Everyone who violated these laws in any way, from the Boltons to the Night’s Watch, are cruising for a bruising. Besides, Jon will have the bloody vengeance of a greenseer ally on his side in his brother Bran, plus we have the direwolves that will have a significant role to fill in the future.

My notion all along has been that by violating the laws of hospitality, from way back when Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, perhaps, we have had disorder. I am sure violations can be traced even further, I just have not set to doing it yet. Even Jaime and Cersei violate these laws when they fornicate in Winterfell, and of course, Jaime pushes Bran, then loses that all important hand of his! It all just smacks of the Ancient Greek God motif of punishing the violators of the laws sacred to Zeus, and the laws of hospitality in Martin’s world are avenged by the force relegated to the old gods, who have far-reaching potential, I think.

You are right about how this thread reminds me of so much I forgot I knew, and also by carefully analyzing each chapter, how much I actually see that I never saw on rereads before.

It also helps that we have a nice tight group of posters who respect one another’s ideas and build on the posts of others. So much of my power for a new post hinges on ideas I garner from you, Redriver, Little Wing, Kiss’dbyFire, and I miss our old posters who left for Tumblr. I still “buy” the Pack Survives’ theory of the different structures being able to defend themselves. But I also agree with your assertion that the Wall will fall – too much foreshadowing for this not to be a given. Besides, the black brothers have murdered two of their Lord Commanders, which is a violation of the laws of hospitality as well – especially in the case of Mormont, and remember, Jon never ate from Craster’s board, so he will be free of the retribution that will fall to the other brothers of the Watch. :fencing:

[Alia of the knife]

:bowdown: :bowdown: ALIA OF THE KNIFE: WOW! GREAT ANALOGIES WITH HISTORY! I can see this all coming to pass, :agree: and as you said, other stories are paralleling one another in so many marked ways. In my mockingbird analysis, I more or less prove that Thorne is part of the conspiracy to kill Jon, at least if we follow Martin’s subtle clues early on. Thorne is not the sage on the stage, he’s the guide “on the side” so to speak. Bowen Marsh is the “sage” executing the action in Ser Alliser’s place, but either way, Alliser will be a foe to be reckoned with.

Your response brings me back to my original theory: the violations of the laws of hospitality! Everyone who violated these laws in any way, from the Boltons to the Night’s Watch, are cruising for a bruising. Besides, Jon will have the bloody vengeance of a greenseer ally on his side in his brother Bran, plus we have the direwolves that will have a significant role to fill in the future.

My notion all along has been that by violating the laws of hospitality, from way back when Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, perhaps, we have had disorder. I am sure violations can be traced even further, I just have not set to doing it yet. Even Jaime and Cersei violate these laws when they fornicate in Winterfell, and of course, Jaime pushes Bran, then loses that all important hand of his! It all just smacks of the Ancient Greek God motif of punishing the violators of the laws sacred to Zeus, and the laws of hospitality in Martin’s world are avenged by the force relegated to the old gods, who have far-reaching potential, I think.

You are right about how this thread reminds me of so much I forgot I knew, and also by carefully analyzing each chapter, how much I actually see that I never saw on rereads before.

It also helps that we have a nice tight group of posters who respect one another’s ideas and build on the posts of others. So much of my power for a new post hinges on ideas I garner from you, Redriver, Little Wing, Kiss’dbyFire, and I miss our old posters who left for Tumblr. I still “buy” the Pack Survives’ theory of the different structures being able to defend themselves. But I also agree with your assertion that the Wall will fall – too much foreshadowing for this not to be a given. Besides, the black brothers have murdered two of their Lord Commanders, which is a violation of the laws of hospitality as well – especially in the case of Mormont, and remember, Jon never ate from Craster’s board, so he will be free of the retribution that will fall to the other brothers of the Watch. :fencing:

Since one of the other themes of Martins work is "irony," I think it's not outside the realm of possibility that Rhaegar in trying to fulfill a prophesy, (though I tend to think it was 80% Lyanna and 20% metaphysical given his love for her), might have set off events by taking Lyanna.

If there is this magical connection between the old gods, Winter, tCotF, and perhaps even the Others, (the NIght King), etc., then Lyanna may have been something dear to them and taking her the way he did upset the balance, which then ironically, Jon would be needed to reestablish that balance given his unique bloodline.

In the newest App. that just came out that Martin signed off on to debunk/confirm certain theories, it did say Rhaegar enlisted the aid of Dayne and Whent in taking her.

It also said that it was Robert who persuaded Ned to plead his hand for Lyanna to Rickard, and not Rickard who approached Robert, which could mean that Robert had been on visits to Winterfell with Ned and knew Lyanna more than many of us thought he did.

Whether Rhaegar ever tried to initially approach Winterfell in any way for Lyanna is unknown, but if he did and was actually turned down by the Starks, but took her anyway would play into those violations even if she was willing.

But, thats probably for a different thread, however, it does play into the theme of upending certain laws of order such as they were then.

I'm also not sure if the Dragons are a force for good, or that the Others are necessarily evil, but all apart of the same balance.

And yes, we do have a very civil group even if we don't always agree with each other. :)

[redriver]

Chapter 21.Eddard.

Summary-

Eddard arrives at the Red Keep and is immediately summoned to a meeting of the small council.Present are Varys,Littlefinger,Grand Maester Pycelle,and Robert's brother Renly.To Eddard's dismay Robert has decreed a Tourney in Eddard's honour,with extravagant cash prizes.To his further astonishment he learns that not only is the Treasury empty,the Realm is 6 million gold dragons in debt.Eddard is reluctant to plan the Tourney,but is informed by the council that it will have to go ahead.

A weary Eddard calls an end to the meeting,but is later accosted by Baelish and brought to the brothel where he has accommodated Catelyn and Ser Rodrick.

Catelyn explains her reasons for coming to KL,including the attack on Bran and shows him the knife.Baelish associates the knife with the absent Tyrion.Ned sends Catelyn back to Winterfell,vowing to get to the bottom of the attack on Bran and the death of Jon Arryn,and bring the evidence to Robert.He puts Winterfell on a war footing,ordering Moat Cailin to be fortified with 200 archers.

ANALYSIS;

The first line,"Eddard Stark rode through the towering bronze doors of the Red Keep sore,tired,hungry and irritable.",sets the tone for Ned's mood through the chapter,and nothing really happens to improve it.

As soon as the meeting begins Ned feels like a fish out of water.He remembers Robert's words."I am surrounded by flatterers and fools.Ned thinks he can tell one from the other,but can he really?He has already singled out Varys as the councillor he likes least.Is he right?

We meet Renly for the first time.Ned is struck by how closely he resembles the young Robert.The young stag laughs off Littlefinger's quip about Renly spending "more on clothing than half the ladies at court."

And we meet Pycelle for the first time.A kindly faced man with huge chain with links forged from every metal known,including platinum.That's the magic one,I think.Can't think of anything of an anthropology angle for Pycelle,aside from the generalized "grey sheep" that Marwyn applies to the Maester.This implies an animal that follows rather than leads.So let's keep an eye out for this trait in the Grand Maester.

Neds interactions with Bealish are prickly throughout the chapter,with LF in Mockingbird form,and several references to cold.LF asks if Catelyn has mentioned him to Ned.

"She has,"Ned replied with a chill in his voice..."I understand you knew my brother Brandon as well."

And when Baelish asks if Brandon spoke of him,Ned replies,"Often,and with some heat."Which brings forth another LF sally.

"I should have thought that heat ill suits you Starks.Here in the south,they say you are all made of ice,and melt when you ride below the neck."

As I say prickly stuff.I wonder if LF had in mind what the Mad King did to his father in making this comment?It's like a dance of ice and fire already!

But perhaps he's right that wolves are creatures of the north.

And so,in the business of the meeting Ned learns that Robert has decreed a tourney in honour of the new hand with 90,000 gold dragons in prizes.Ned is also somewhat surprised to learn that the treasury is empty and the Crown is six million dragons in debt.

His friend Robert has been a bit profligate,it seems.

After the meeting Ned ponders on the journey south,and how his daughters were affected by the events at the Trident."Sansa cried herself to sleep,Arya brooded silently all day long and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell."

Strong stuff.It made me think of Dante's Inferno,which at the deeper levels,for the more serious sins,the hell were icy and frozen.Speculation has been made that this is foreshadowing connections with the Others,but I think it can be seen as grim times ahead for the Starks.

LF accosts Ned,and still in mocking form,bids Ned to come with him.He leads Ned to a brothel and tells him Catelyn is inside.At which point Ned puts a dagger to LF's throat.Unfortunately Ser Rodrick intervenes at this point.

Within Ned meets Cat who tells him of the attack on Bran,the knife and the direwolf who saves him.Ned ponders on this when Cat is finished.

"Bran's wolf had saved the boy's life,he thought dully.What was it that Jon had said when they found the pups in the snow?Your children were meant to have these pups,my lord.And he had killed Sansa's,and for what?Was it guilt he was feeling?Or fear.If the gods had sent these wolves,what folly had he done?"

I have to agree here Ned,killing Lady was not a good idea.

LF reveals that the knife was Tyrion's.Ned questions why the Imp would want to kill Bran.To which LF replies,"Do you Starks have nought but snow between your ears?"More mockery and winter references.After LF advises Ned to throw the knife away and forget about it,Ned calls LF as big a fool as the day he took up a sword against Brandon.To which LF replies that Brandon has bee mouldering in his frozen grave for 14 years,whilst he is still alive.

Cat reveals that she has told Baelish about their suspicions,and that Petyr would help him get to the truth.

And later Ned sends Cat back to Winterfell,with instructions to fortify Moat Calin.This would be the last time they meet.

The overall feeling for me of this chapter is how out of his natural environment Ned is.How far away from the old gods.And not knowing who to trust,even his king.

ETA.I noticed this in Dante's Inferno,in the deepest pit of hell.Guest rights?

ETTA I'd better add that this is from Wikipedia.No Dante expert I.

Round 3 is named Ptolomaea, probably after Ptolemy, son of Abubus, who invited Simon Maccabaeus and his sons to a banquet and then killed them.^[55] Traitors to their guests are punished here, lying supine in the ice, which covers them, except for their faces. They are punished more severely than the previous traitors, since the relationship to guests is an entirely voluntary one.^[56]Fra Alberigo, who had armed soldiers kill his brother at a banquet, explains that sometimes a soul falls here before Atropos cuts the thread of life. Their bodies on Earth are immediately possessed by a demon, so what seems to be a walking man has reached the stage of being incapable of repentance (Canto XXXIII).

[ArabellaVidal]

I'm just butting in to say how brilliant the discussion is on this thread. I may not be entirely accurate, but the impression I have so far is that the re-read is more thorough and holistic - is that the correct word?- than on the other threads. Very insightful. The focus on the animals and animal imagery here shows how reliant GRRM is on animal symbolism to convey meaning and provide insight.

[Alia of the knife]

I'm just butting in to say how brilliant the discussion is on this thread. I may not be entirely accurate, but the impression I have so far is that the re-read is more thorough and holistic - is that the correct word?- than on the other threads. Very insightful. The focus on the animals and animal imagery here shows how reliant GRRM is on animal symbolism to convey meaning and provide insight.

And being animal lovers ourselves, it makes it even more interesting to compare and contrast ideas, as well as the civility that goes into discussion, even if you have a difference in opinion.

Chapter 21.Eddard.

Summary-

Eddard arrives at the Red Keep and is immediately summoned to a meeting of the small council.Present are Varys,Littlefinger,Grand Maester Pycelle,and Robert's brother Renly.To Eddard's dismay Robert has decreed a Tourney in Eddard's honour,with extravagant cash prizes.To his further astonishment he learns that not only is the Treasury empty,the Realm is 6 million gold dragons in debt.Eddard is reluctant to plan the Tourney,but is informed by the council that it will have to go ahead.

A weary Eddard calls an end to the meeting,but is later accosted by Baelish and brought to the brothel where he has accommodated Catelyn and Ser Rodrick.

Catelyn explains her reasons for coming to KL,including the attack on Bran and shows him the knife.Baelish associates the knife with the absent Tyrion.Ned sends Catelyn back to Winterfell,vowing to get to the bottom of the attack on Bran and the death of Jon Arryn,and bring the evidence to Robert.He puts Winterfell on a war footing,ordering Moat Cailin to be fortified with 200 archers.

ANALYSIS;

The first line,"Eddard Stark rode through the towering bronze doors of the Red Keep sore,tired,hungry and irritable.",sets the tone for Ned's mood through the chapter,and nothing really happens to improve it.

As soon as the meeting begins Ned feels like a fish out of water.He remembers Robert's words."I am surrounded by flatterers and fools.Ned thinks he can tell one from the other,but can he really?He has already singled out Varys as the councillor he likes least.Is he right?

We meet Renly for the first time.Ned is struck by how closely he resembles the young Robert.The young stag laughs off Littlefinger's quip about Renly spending "more on clothing than half the ladies at court."

And we meet Pycelle for the first time.A kindly faced man with huge chain with links forged from every metal known,including platinum.That's the magic one,I think.Can't think of anything of an anthropology angle for Pycelle,aside from the generalized "grey sheep" that Marwyn applies to the Maester.This implies an animal that follows rather than leads.So let's keep an eye out for this trait in the Grand Maester.

Neds interactions with Bealish are prickly throughout the chapter,with LF in Mockingbird form,and several references to cold.LF asks if Catelyn has mentioned him to Ned.

"She has,"Ned replied with a chill in his voice..."I understand you knew my brother Brandon as well."

And when Baelish asks if Brandon spoke of him,Ned replies,"Often,and with some heat."Which brings forth another LF sally.

"I should have thought that heat ill suits you Starks.Here in the south,they say you are all made of ice,and melt when you ride below the neck."

As I say prickly stuff.I wonder if LF had in mind what the Mad King did to his father in making this comment?It's like a dance of ice and fire already!

But perhaps he's right that wolves are creatures of the north.

And so,in the business of the meeting Ned learns that Robert has decreed a tourney in honour of the new hand with 90,000 gold dragons in prizes.Ned is also somewhat surprised to learn that the treasury is empty and the Crown is six million dragons in debt.

His friend Robert has been a bit profligate,it seems.

After the meeting Ned ponders on the journey south,and how his daughters were affected by the events at the Trident."Sansa cried herself to sleep,Arya brooded silently all day long and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell."

Strong stuff.It made me think of Dante's Inferno,which at the deeper levels,for the more serious sins,the hell were icy and frozen.Speculation has been made that this is foreshadowing connections with the Others,but I think it can be seen as grim times ahead for the Starks.

LF accosts Ned,and still in mocking form,bids Ned to come with him.He leads Ned to a brothel and tells him Catelyn is inside.At which point Ned puts a dagger to LF's throat.Unfortunately Ser Rodrick intervenes at this point.

Within Ned meets Cat who tells him of the attack on Bran,the knife and the direwolf who saves him.Ned ponders on this when Cat is finished.

"Bran's wolf had saved the boy's life,he thought dully.What was it that Jon had said when they found the pups in the snow?Your children were meant to have these pups,my lord.And he had killed Sansa's,and for what?Was it guilt he was feeling?Or fear.If the gods had sent these wolves,what folly had he done?"

I have to agree here Ned,killing Lady was not a good idea.

LF reveals that the knife was Tyrion's.Ned questions why the Imp would want to kill Bran.To which LF replies,"Do you Starks have nought but snow between your ears?"More mockery and winter references.After LF advises Ned to throw the knife away and forget about it,Ned calls LF as big a fool as the day he took up a sword against Brandon.To which LF replies that Brandon has bee mouldering in his frozen grave for 14 years,whilst he is still alive.

Cat reveals that she has told Baelish about their suspicions,and that Petyr would help him get to the truth.

And later Ned sends Cat back to Winterfell,with instructions to fortify Moat Calin.This would be the last time they meet.

The overall feeling for me of this chapter is how out of his natural environment Ned is.How far away from the old gods.And not knowing who to trust,even his king.

ETA.I noticed this in Dante's Inferno,in the deepest pit of hell.Guest rights?

ETTA I'd better add that this is from Wikipedia.No Dante expert I.

Round 3 is named Ptolomaea, probably after Ptolemy, son of Abubus, who invited Simon Maccabaeus and his sons to a banquet and then killed them.^[55] Traitors to their guests are punished here, lying supine in the ice, which covers them, except for their faces. They are punished more severely than the previous traitors, since the relationship to guests is an entirely voluntary one.^[56]Fra Alberigo, who had armed soldiers kill his brother at a banquet, explains that sometimes a soul falls here before Atropos cuts the thread of life. Their bodies on Earth are immediately possessed by a demon, so what seems to be a walking man has reached the stage of being incapable of repentance (Canto XXXIII).

Absoulutely great anaylysis, and a few more things I didn't know but were a joy to learn.

There are some things I'd like to comment on, but I'm battling a sinus infection, so I'm afraid between the medicine and fatigue, :stillsick: I won't be coherent.