Are religious people more or less inclined to believe in ASOIAF Gods?

[Melonica Stormborn]

I'm Catholic by birth. I certainly am not very active in practicing the religion and I am very liberal in my views, though. The point of faith for me has always been believing in something so ridiculous (if you believe in something provable, it's not "faith", is it?). Sometimes it feels so shallow, but I don't want to dwell on the topic.

As to ASoIaF gods:

1. The Seven are more based on values so I consider it a moral code more than a religion, it's just that people need to personify to connect to a set of beliefs.
   
   
2. The Drowned God - I don't consider him real at the moment.
   
   
3. The Old Gods - more like elementals than gods/deities.
   
   
4. Rh'llor - seems like their tricks can be attained through studies and practice. It could be scientific and the people of Westeros just can't explain it yet. Rh'llor I consider more of a key figure in attaining such know-how than being an actual god.
   

The Old Gods and Rh'llor have the most street cred, though.

[Errant Bard]

I didn't read anything showing me that "gods" were more than an anthropomorphised representation of natural forces, differing from gravity or electricity only by the fact they don't exist in our world, but heh, dragons don't exist here either, and nobody calls them gods. Trying to explain something you cannot explain by inventing something you cannot explain either as the source feels superfluous, always has.

I see little difference between children of the forest and elves, so calling them gods always felt weird. May as well have called Galadriel a goddess in LOTR (which otherwise had one actual god.) As for the warging and other innate abilities, they may be supernatural in our world, but they seem pretty natural in Westeros, so the idea that gods have something to do with it feels kinda like saying that Usain Bolt running fast is supernatural.

I am not religious.

[Free Northman]

The answer to the OP is yes.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Wow! What a great amount of replies! It makes me smile to see everyone's opinions, and I'm truly glad the discussion is so respectful and friendly. I personally know some atheist, and some christians who cannot accept that other people don't believe the same thing as they do, so I'm always a bit worried to bring up religion as a subject, for it's so personal.

Luis Dantas: I thoroughly enjoyed your posts, you bring up really interesting points. I will reread them later and comment on them, they were a bit too long to include in this post.

Sorry to OP for derailing, but I just want to say I think that this is so true, and the main reason that I have a serious problem with the idea that just because I don't believe the "correct" theology then I am doomed to hell. For so many years I lied to myself that I believed; tried for so long to believe after I stopped lying to myself. I still want to believe. But goddammit, I can't.

//end digression

No problem at all, I like how this discussion preogresses, and I don't think it's too far off topic. As long as people don't start bashing each others beliefs, it's fine to take the touristic route once in a while :)

And yes I agree that I can't believe in a god who would send wonderful people to hell for not believing the "right" thing. There's a South Park episode where only the Mormons go to heaven, it really shows how little people would go to heaven if this belief was true.

I've always kinda believed in ASOIAF that there is either

1. One god with multiple personalities hence why he can be worshiped in many forms. The rise of the Others is his fault by accident and he sets up precautions to stop the doom that has been created AAR.

or

2. That the gods of the world aren't deities but instead the magical forces which then men come along and put a 'face' to them.

I'm Agnostic

Yes I see that in a similar way. You can call it gods, or think of it as the power of nature and magic, it doesn't make that much difference I guess.

I'm a Christian that had some agnostic thoughts & feelings for awhile. I look at the books this way...they are written by a nonbeliever, why would he put a "true" God in his books?

Why not? I think atheists can make up real gods perfectly well. I think GRRM makes the choice to not make it clear whther the gods are real or not, because it's more interesting (at least to him), that doesn't mean that they wouldn't be there if he decided that that would serve the story better.

I'm Catholic by birth. I certainly am not very active in practicing the religion and I am very liberal in my views, though. The point of faith for me has always been believing in something so ridiculous (if you believe in something provable, it's not "faith", is it?). Sometimes it feels so shallow, but I don't want to dwell on the topic.

As to ASoIaF gods:

1. The Seven are more based on values so I consider it a moral code more than a religion, it's just that people need to personify to connect to a set of beliefs.
   
   
2. The Drowned God - I don't consider him real at the moment.
   
   
3. The Old Gods - more like elementals than gods/deities.
   
   
4. Rh'llor - seems like their tricks can be attained through studies and practice. It could be scientific and the people of Westeros just can't explain it yet. Rh'llor I consider more of a key figure in attaining such know-how than being an actual god.
   

The Old Gods and Rh'llor have the most street cred, though.

I would like to add, that I believe the Old Gods are very much based on values as well. They have less rules, but there certainly is a moral code as well.

The answer to the OP is yes.

Yes you believe in the gods? Yes you are religious? Would you like to elaborate? I'm very interested :)

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

< snip >

I'm an atheist, so my opinion may be biased, but I don't think the gods in ASOIAF are gods of our understanding. They just seem to be these powerful identities who sometimes give a push to the people in the direction they want. There was no emphasis on CREATION in any of the ASOIAF religions, so that may be a hint from GRRM that those "gods" are not really gods as we know it.

[TheBlackfish67]

To be perfectly honest to me the religions of ASOIAF ( especially the old gods) appear to be more realistic than those followed by Christians, Hindus etc.....

I for one can't imagine the old gods telling Noah to build a big ark and saving two of every species because of a massive flood !

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I'm an atheist, so my opinion may be biased, but I don't think the gods in ASOIAF are gods of our understanding. They just seem to be these powerful identities who sometimes give a push to the people in the direction they want. There was no emphasis on CREATION in any of the ASOIAF religions, so that may be a hint from GRRM that those "gods" are not really gods as we know it.

Wow you really got an excellent point there! I never even thought of that. I agree that their understanding of gods is indeed completely different than ours on that matter!

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

To be perfectly honest to me the religions of ASOIAF ( especially the old gods) appear to be more realistic than those followed by Christians, Hindus etc.....

I for one can't imagine the old gods telling Noah to build a big ark and saving two of every species because of a massive flood !

I partially agree on that, however, we don't know much about their gods. I'm sure they have a lot of stories about their gods' interference as well, we just haven't heard them.. There definitely are books about the Faith for one, and the AA prophecies, and probably much more about R'hllor, are written down as well.

[TheBlackfish67]

I partially agree on that, however, we don't know much about their gods. I'm sure they have a lot of stories about their gods' interference as well, we just haven't heard them.. There definitely are books about the Faith for one, and the AA prophecies, and probably much more about R'hllor, are written down as well.

It's funny R'hllor followers remind me a lot of Bloody Mary's burning of Protestants during her extreme catholice reign of England - main difference being Stannis is great and she was just bloodthirsty (or so history tells us)

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

It's funny R'hllor followers remind me a lot of Bloody Mary's burning of Protestants during her extreme catholice reign of England - main difference being Stannis is great and she was just bloodthirsty (or so history tells us)

Sounds a lot like Bloody Melissandre...

[Fire and Blood!]

I'd say religious people are more inclined to believe that Gods in ASOIAF are real.I for example find the idea of a godless world laughable at best, so naturaly I accept that the ASOIAF Gods exist as fact, never even doubting it.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I'd say religious people are more inclined to believe that Gods in ASOIAF are real.I for example find the idea of a godless world laughable at best, so naturaly I accept that the ASOIAF Gods exist as fact, never even doubting it.

That's interesting, because as an atheist GRRM believes in a godless world, so why could he not write a book about a godless world? And even if he did believe in a god, the Whole ASOIAF world is imaginary, and so are the religions. As human being we are gifted with the ability to make up just about anything, so why not a godless world?

I kindly ask you not to call other people's beliefs laughable though, you would not like it either if people called your belief in the existence of a God laughable. It's quite offensive to state it like that. Religion, and non-religion is very personal, and should be respected at all times.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

Great forum question. I was raised Roman Catholic and went to a Catholic school most of my life, mainly because most NYC public schools are aweful after elementery school. Despite the education, I do not consider myself religious. I would not consider myself fully agnositc or athiest though either. I would like to believe that there is some larger force out there, but I have a hard time buying into any religion 100% nor am I arrogant enough to believe that the one religion I happen to be born into is the "true religion".

I don't particularly like organized religion, but it's hard to deny there is a god when so many people throughout history believed and continue to believe in one.

I guess my opinion is the same with regards to the differet Religions of Ice and Fire. I simply don't know. I like to concentrate on the character and if he or she really believes in the religion rather than do I believe it.

I have read that GRRM was raised catholic but is now athiest, I wonder if that would influence his revelation, if there is any, of which religion(s) are real.

Magic is real in the series though, that we have seen first hand. Warging, Dragons hatched from stone, shadow monsters and glamour tricks exist, we have read them first hand.

edit: Phrasing

[Stormcloak]

Magic's obviously real in the series but beyond that I think GRRM's leaving it to the reader and being ambiguous, don't think we'll ever get an answer. I'm agnostic in real life and I'm not sure about it in Westeros either :P

Unless it's the Old Gods I'm hoping no though, R'hllor and the Drowned God don't sound that nice and even Ned says the Seven have too many rules (and hell if you break them).

[R'hllor's Bastard]

Under the sea, the Gods worship the men! Oh! oh! oh!

[straits]

I find it more likely that people would believe in gods in the aSoIaF universe, but I'd like to know what standpoint we are viewing this from. As readers? As people suddenly thrown into the universe? As people who grew up in the universe? Because it would be a lot harder to be an atheist in that world due to the frequency of the supernatural. I get that the supernatural does not need to be explained by gods, but that really does not matter.

Additionally, I feel that a strong case for R'hllor is the visions that Mel receives, regardless of how she interprets them. Preternatural cognition is not something that can be just thrown in with magic. It is a view into the future, out of millions of possibilities. I think that this can only be explained by the presence of a creature outside the natural loop, i.e. a God, because the observance of future events as a magical mechanism is absurd even to a world with magic.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Great forum question. I was raised Roman Catholic and went to a Catholic school most of my life, mainly because most NYC public schools are aweful after elementery school. Despite the education, I do not consider myself religious. I would not consider myself fully agnositc or athiest though either. I would like to believe that there is some larger force out there, but I have a hard time buying into any religion 100% nor am I arrogant enough to believe that the one religion I happen to be born into is the "true religion".

I don't particularly like organized religion, but it's hard to deny there is a god when so many people throughout history believed and continue to believe in one.

I guess my opinion is the same with regards to the differet Religions of Ice and Fire. I simply don't know. I like to concentrate on the character and if he or she really believes in the religion rather than do I believe it.

I have read that GRRM was raised catholic but is now athiest, I wonder if that would influence his revelation, if there is any, of which religion(s) are real.

Magic is real in the series though, that we have seen first hand. Warging, Dragons hatched from stone, shadow monsters and glamour tricks exist, we have read them first hand.

edit: Phrasing

It's interesting that you mention people believing in gods throughout history. I think people naturally want to believe in 'something' that can explain life, and it's purpose. Even some atheists believe in science as if it is a religion. Eventually we all want something more; true love, happiness, being relieved of all our sorrows. You won't ever get that that perfectly in real life though, so it's comforting to believe in some sort of afterlife. Where this natural urge to believe comes from, I do not know, it might well be that it derives from the existence of a deity, but it's not strong enough to make me believe.

I'm agnostic in real life, not sure about the Gods in Westeros either :P

Magic's obviously real in the series but beyond that I think GRRM's being intentionally ambiguous.

This ambiguousness makes it so much more interesting. Everyone can form their own conclusions, and it leaves it open for discussion, which I think is great! :D

[Melonica Stormborn]

I would like to add, that I believe the Old Gods are very much based on values as well. They have less rules, but there certainly is a moral code as well.

That is true, the main difference is that the Seven's moral code is more grounded on everyday life wisdom, and I suspect it to be man-made, while the Old Gods actually communicated their accepted values/rules (through CotF, most likely).

I just remembered, I am also very curious about the Stranger. I know the Seven are supposed to be facets of one entity but the Stranger seems to be very dark and different

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I find it more likely that people would believe in gods in the aSoIaF universe, but I'd like to know what standpoint we are viewing this from. As readers? As people suddenly thrown into the universe? As people who grew up in the universe? Because it would be a lot harder to be an atheist in that world due to the frequency of the supernatural. I get that the supernatural does not need to be explained by gods, but that really does not matter.

Additionally, I feel that a strong case for R'hllor is the visions that Mel receives, regardless of how she interprets them. Preternatural cognition is not something that can be just thrown in with magic. It is a view into the future, out of millions of possibilities. I think that this can only be explained by the presence of a creature outside the natural loop, i.e. a God, because the observance of future events as a magical mechanism is absurd even to a world with magic.

The question was posed how we perceive the AFOIAF gods as readers, and how you perceive them (as real/just magic), and whether you believe in God/gods in the real world, trying to find out if it's related :)

Interesting, I personally don't see R'hllor as an existing creature/god. I think the visions are the result of a lot of practise in fire magic, and probably could be achieved without believing in R'hllor as well, with enough practise. So the visions aren't sent, but just mastered :)

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

That is true, the main difference is that the Seven's moral code is more grounded on everyday life wisdom, and I suspect it to be man-made, while the Old Gods actually communicated their accepted values/rules (through CotF, most likely).

I just remembered, I am also very curious about the Stranger. I know the Seven are supposed to be facets of one entity but the Stranger seems to be very dark and different

The Stranger is the god of death (that's why he also has a statue in the House of Black & White), so he is indeed the darkest, and scariest aspect of the Seven, for the other 6 gods are aspects of life.