Are religious people more or less inclined to believe in ASOIAF Gods?

[Viserys_The Transformed]

I think Atheism will become new religion in the world.

First....Polytheism,

Then,.... Monotheistic Practices....

Then... Agnosticism.... and then ,

Hopefully..... Realization ???

[Starkbringer]

I have a firm belief in the God of Abraham and Moses and claim him for my God. My personal faith has nothing to do with reading literature, especially fantasy literature. I take these book as sheer enjoyment and do not put any religious stakes in them at all. I find it quite amusing actually that GRRM has created so many different "gods" in this series and laugh at most of it, even saying "Seven Hells". This does not cross over in any way into my real life.

[Errant Bard]

I think Atheism will become new religion in the world.

At the same time, obscurity will become the new light.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I read an interesting thread yesterday with a discussion about whether the Gods in ASOIAF exsist, or that the is 'just' magic and natural forces, and the Gods are just invented to explain them.

Some people believe one thing, and some the other, and it made me wonder whether people who are religious are more inclined to believe in true religions in ASOIAF. It can work both ways; if you already are religious, it might make you more open to the possibility of real gods in the books, but on the other hand it could make it harder to believe that there can be any other god besides your own, even in books.

I think a true atheist, might never want to accept the possibility of any sort of God, but an agnost might be very open to it.

So I would like to invite people to discuss here if they're religious themselves, and if they believe in ASOIAF Gods.

I personally am not religious, nor have I been raised that way, but I'm not a real atheist either. I see myself more like an agnost, and think there might be something more, but I see it more like a natural power/power of life, than like any religion described in books.

And that is exactly how I see the magic in the books. Powers that cannot be explained, but aren't necessarily divine. I think all religions eventually are the same thing; an explanation for the forces and magic of nature. Yes, even R'hllor. No doubt there is power (in the books) in fire and blood, but I think it's a 'natural' force, with no actual thinking god behind it.

So I'm looking forward to find out whether personal religion influences your view on book religion or not :)

PS. I really want no religion-bashing or anything like that here. I hope everyone can respect each others personal beliefs, nobody is stupid or naive for believing something different than you!

That is exactly how I see it. Superstitious people must look for a higher being in order to explain the unexplainable.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

I believe Rhllor is most definitely real. The other ones are more up in the air for me. Patchfaces prophecies after almost drowning could be evidence of the DG, IMO. And skinchanging, communication between the trees etc for the Old God.

The Seven is the one that has almost no backing to it...save for the voice talking to Davos when he was on the Blackwater...but that could just be a result of dehydration/hunger/ pain etc. he couldve just been hearing it.

I agree with the opinion that religious people might be more inclined to believe in the ASOIF gods, and vice versa for the non religious. I'm an agnostic though(raised Catholic), so I guess I'm an exception.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I'm not sure why people still believe that the Old Gods are real when it has been established that they are COTF that are embedded in the weirwood trees. Bran sees them and thinks that they are dead until he sees their eyes following him. Patchfaces "prophecies" are similar to Jojens green dreams after his fever. R'hllor is probably just some sort of seer who communicates through fire, as the COTF do through the trees. The so called Great Other and R'hllor are probably brothers or cousins, one causes the Long Night that could destroy the world and the other causes the Doom.

[Porcelain Steel]

To the OP-this is a great topic. I find I am very similar to you. I consider myself agnostic, in that I don't personally see myself as religious, but I don't outright dismiss the possibility that there could be something more....especially in regards to a sort of natural power.

As far as religions in ASOIAF, I don't believe that any of them are truly based on something divine.

The religions of the Old Gods and Rh'llor I find to be explanations for the manifestations of magic that occur in Westeros. The religion of The Seven I find to be more of an institutional religion meant to enforce a moral code with no basis in anything otherworldy at all. The Drowned God religion I'm tempted to dismiss as a misunderstood belief that science (CPR) is actually the supernatural, but something about Patchface does get under my skin-and there's also the greyscale to consider. In general though, I don't believe in any of them as 'Gods'.

I do think that if I lived in Westeros, I might be inclined to believe in the Old Gods in particular, if I didn't have knowledge of the existence of the COTF and Bloodraven.

[bent branch]

I am an agnostic. This means I essentially believe that the existence of god is unknown or unknowable. While some people think that it is atheists who are the skeptics, it is truly the agnostics who are. Skepticism implies questioning. Atheists have ceased to question and have made up their mind. As far as religion goes, I accept the definition of religion developed by Emile Durkheim:

A religion is a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, i.e., things set apart and forbidden--beliefs and practices which unite in one single moral community called a Church, all those who adhere to them.

—Émile Durkheim, The Elementary Forms of the Religious Life, Book 1, Ch. 1

I was surprised to find that people were even questioning whether the gods in the story were real. With the definition above, I saw the religions in the story as a way to help the reader understand the societies and characters in the story. For example, R'hllor is essentially a slave religion with a liberation theology. Simillarly, the Seven are a religion for a strongly hierarchical society with very rigid social roles. Thus, we would expect to see most Westerosi following the Seven and most slaves to follow R'hllor. So when we see someone following a religion that appears to conflict with the society they identify with we should ask ourselves what is attracting that person to that religion. This is the reason the HS is so skeptical of Stannis' suitability to rule in Westeros. By following a religion other than the Seven, Stannis is marking himself as standing outside of Westerosi society.

[Naathi Prince]

As someone who grew up in an extremely religious household, and still considers myself somewhat religious, I think its pretty obvious GRRM is the sort of person who doesn't see a difference between any religion. Not that he necessarily is an atheist, but to GRRM, all gods are the same, they are all just the Many-Faced god. Magic reenters the world, and the Red Priests, the Greenseers...all of the religious forces get stronger all at once.

[ghost of Harrenhall]

I am Atheistic, and I view the 7, the Droned God, and the God of Death the same way I view any god; that they are created by and for the cultures that worship them and don’t have any power outside of the mind. The old gods are more than that, but I do not think of them as gods. Rhllor and the Great Other have power and are real, but I see them as mindless forces, not all-powerful beings. I would not say, like Mel that the Lord of Light is good and the Other bad rather that there must be balance between the two, and asoiaf’s magic comes from the war these two forces fight.

[wimpypuppy]

Great topic! I am very religious, up until last year I was even studying to enter the ministry (zoology student now) and I am definitely open to the gods of ASOIAF being real in their universe, but I would also buy into it if for whatever reason GRRM wanted to reveal they are not. Have we seen any undeniable evidence of their existence? It seems like a lot of what characters may attribute to these gods is actually the result of magic along the lines of Bloodraven and the CotF, but maybe they are supposed to be influenced by the gods, or maybe their gods are "clockwork gods." Basically, I think I'm open to whatever the author of a story wants to tell me, since they're the ones who create the world and all. I feel like even if I was not religious, though, that I would be open to the existence of deities in literature, so I am not sure how much influence my own beliefs hold over that.

[lannistergold]

I'm a maintream religious believer. At the same time, I have no trouble believing that there's at least one god in this fantasy world - not because there has to be, but because evidence points that way (particularly for R'hllor).

[Errant Bard]

because evidence points that way (particularly for R'hllor).

Same sort of evidences than lightning is for the existence of Zeus.

Zeus is cool though.

[Maester Domeric]

It's turtles, all the way down....

A fellow Rhoynar I see, let the blessings of the Old Man of the River flow upon this thread

If anything, I think the very harsh reality, horrible mutilations and (usual) finality of death makes it a pretty atheistic picture.

Am I the only person who is alittle jarred that by the association of "harsh reality" and "horrible mutilations" with a "pretty atheistic picture"? What about an atheistic outlook engenders itself to "horrible mutilations" occurring in the world, this one or Martins? Judeo-christian circumcision practices are actual mutilations and the Inquisition was brutal and those things weren't done by Atheists. (this really isn't meant to devolve into a religion bashing or an argument about dicks, I just can't see how you can ignore or absolve theism of its crimes and claim an atheist outlook is bleak and comes along with horrible mutilations). IMHO I think you have a horribly misinformed view on atheism and how atheists experience the world.

but moving on.

I was begrudgingly raised as a catholic but always harbored doubts and jumped ship after confirmation. I vacillate between agnostic and atheist, but a more accurate description would be somewhere between metaphysical naturalism and some kind of nontheistic religious naturalism. The point being I reject the existence of the supernatural. If there are gods or a God then they/He exist as some sort of natural phenomenon that has to potential of being explained. (the difference being that we may not understand how certain things work yet but there is no such thing as can not know).

In my reading of ASoIaF its rather clear that things like "magic" are simply another category of natural phenomena that can be explained in the book which I think is a refreshing take on magic in fantasy settings (in that its not supernatural). As far as the religions go, its a mixed bag. i'm unsure as to the actual existence of some of the gods and the ones I do think may exist are not supernatural in their origin but explainable if ever so ephemeral forces. The one religion that I see as being "false" (in the sense that it fails to meet my criteria in that the gods exist as natural entities) is the Faith of the 7 (which I see as a deified reflection of the human experience rather than there actually being A God that exists that they're praying to). The rest I can see as being either personification of naturalistic magical phenomena/entities (i.e. the Rhoynar and the Dothraki) or their "gods" exist in some sort of naturalistic manner and operate via magic (Old Gods, Drowned God, R'hilor/Great Other )

On that note there is just something about the Rhoynar and their religion that I just love (probably because its closest to my own religious naturalism). One of my favorite scenes in the book is when Tyrion, Jon Con, Aegon and Co. are going down the Rhoyne and that massive horned turtle rises from the water and Yandry and Ysilla are weeping with joy. Kind of a throwaway scene I guess, but I really enjoyed it maybe because its one of the few times (outside the weirwoods and Old Gods which become kind of blasé) we see a characters religion influence them that isn't some kind of quasi-catholic ultra asceticism or burning people alive to appese some kind of vengeful fire god .

[Quiet Isle]

I'm an atheist, so my opinion may be biased, but I don't think the gods in ASOIAF are gods of our understanding. They just seem to be these powerful identities who sometimes give a push to the people in the direction they want. There was no emphasis on CREATION in any of the ASOIAF religions, so that may be a hint from GRRM that those "gods" are not really gods as we know it.

My son''s and my opinion on this is that R'hollor represents a similar idea to yours - that it is the ambition, the GO or PUSH force, kind of like the manifest destiny westward ho mentality in the US, and that the Great Other is the STOP. and that they do exist in Fire and Ice. The Yin and the Yang of this universe that we are obsessed with. the rest of the gods are either complete BS or they are iconic archetypes very similar to Jung's models.

[thecryptile]

As someone who grew up in an extremely religious household, and still considers myself somewhat religious, I think its pretty obvious GRRM is the sort of person who doesn't see a difference between any religion. Not that he necessarily is an atheist, but to GRRM, all gods are the same, they are all just the Many-Faced god. Magic reenters the world, and the Red Priests, the Greenseers...all of the religious forces get stronger all at once.

This is a good point... all the gods being linked by the larger force of magic in ASOIAF.

In RL, I'm an atheist and in ASOIAF I believe in the Red God and The Old Gods and the Many Faced God, and am agnostic about all other gods, until we see them do something.

[JonisHenryTudor]

It's a fair question.

1. As a Catholic, I can see similarities with Christianity, but I have no real opinion as to whether the Gods in the novel are real or not. That isn't something Martin has allowed us to see, at least not in any detail. In a sense, Martin has left certain elements of magic/power of God(s) open to interpretation. One example is certainly with Thoros of Myr's ability to bring people back. My first read through in the context of the genre my initial opinion had been that Thoros had some amount of magical power, and to be honest I have not veered much from that initial opinion. Thoros believes the R'hllor is behind his power, which is similar to contemporary believers of any faith. The difference being, for me at least, is that the novel is a fantasy so it could be magic. But again you might consider why then some aspects of magic seemed to be isolated to certain followers of certain gods. The structure of Martin's magical/religious world really isn't clear and in many ways is just as grey as the characters. As a practicing Catholic, I am not immediately pulled towards believing that R'hllor gave Thoros the power, but I am inclined to believe that sure it is possible, why not.

2. As a graduate student in history, I think Martin has done an interesting job blending various religious sects within a denomination and without. I am not going to draw a line and argue paganism verse Judeo-Christian and Islamic principles, but what I can see is a blend of various aspects of the great world religions extending as far back to the ancient world up to the modern era. To me it seems that Martin has given it a tremendous amount of thought, but has delivered little information beyond the superficial existence of religion in Westeros and beyond.

3. As a Catholic (Christian), I am not draw to one or the other religious institutions in the story. I favor the Old Gods, however, but that has everything to do with my love for the Starks.

[Jorah the Explorer]

I'm a Deist in real life. I read religion in aSoIaF with some scepticism, not sure what to believe as there are many different factors at play. It all seems a bit weird, especially R'hllor who has probably gotten the most page time. My favourite reading about god(s) that I ever did was in The Iliad. The Olympians pitted against each other in war, imbuing the opposing humans with strength and protection? Very cool. Oftentimes the original is the best.

[Viserys_The Transformed]

I always saw Life as One Huge Story. So there must be an Author or Director of the story.

I see God as that Invisible Force which writes the Story of Life.

[Dany Girl]

I was raised Christian but have developed more into a spiritual belief than religious one as I've grown up. Meaning I believe in a higher power, not a book. I believe in helping others when you can and doing your best not to harm others. I believe in reincarnation over afterlife. I believe in fate and forces of nature, but not that are lives are defined.

With that, I don't believe that the gods of Plantos are what people think they are. There are no Seven. There is no drowned god or faceless god. Nature spirits sound about right, the Old Gods seem more believable to me than the rest, also the Red God, but I doubt they're really what their followers believe they are.