Are religious people more or less inclined to believe in ASOIAF Gods?

[Quiet Isle]

It's turtles, all the way down....

[TheZone]

I actually I am what I call a liberal catholic, I dont follow everything because men made the laws and were interpreting what God wanted, and in my mind they interpreted it wrong, the same thing in ASOIF I think there have been examples already illustrated that Gods or magic do exist, however my religion does not dedicate my believes when reading or watching tv.

[TheZone]

I have always wondered, will humans ever be able to truly find out if there is a God or Gods?

Once you die I guess, either you die and nothing happens, or you go to the light and see God.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I'm very religious, but while I do believe there is magic in the ASOIAF universe (warging, greenseeing, reviving, glamours, fire visions, etc) I don't believe they necessarily derive from the gods. I don't think it's conclusive whether they exist or not. The Old Gods, for example, if they do exist, are not all-powerful beings (they don't have power in the South, isn't that right?). If they're real they're probably like, influential spirits.

Hmm yeah seems similar to my view. I wonder what 'makes' people believe in the ASOIAF gods though It's definitely a choice, like believing in the real world. Perhaps people believe what makes them most happy.

I disagree with this. I think scientific advances are pretty neat in Westeros. Engineering, chemistry, astronomy, meteorology (to an extinct), geology all exist in Westeros. They even have a basic form of penicillin! In the prologue to ACOK, Maester Cressen's primary complaint is that Mel has influenced people into believing that the red comet is there by the will of her god when it's just a comet with a scientific explanation.

I think most of the magic in the series can be explained by science. Wildfire and a lot of the red priest show of awe is just a bit of chemistry, for example. Most other magic operates in the scientific realm as it's something to be studied and learned, whereas magic gifted by the gods would be inherent. This is the reason I waver when it comes to the Old Gods, because I just can't seem to find a way to relegate it to science.

Sorry, got a bit off topic, but it's one of my favorite things to discuss!

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant to say "that sort of science, not no science in general. I meant that they don't have the science to prove or disprove the exsistence of the gods. Like we don't have that science in the real world either.

Raises the interesting question if we, with all our technology would eventually be able to test the magic enough to prove the exsistence of ASOIAF gods.

I'm a skeptical person and therefore an atheist in real life. That skepticism causes me not to believe in The Drowned God (basically a CPR cult) and the Faith of the Seven, since neither have shown any evidence of being real.

Through Bran we learn that there are some mystical aspects to the old gods. Whether or not there are actual gods in the traditional sense is open to question. And we have empirical evidence that there is something going on with Ruh holla! unless someone has a real world explanation for shadowy things crawling out of Melly Sander's magic box.

Har! Magic box, brilliant! Yes, the R'hllor followers do have power, but I wonder if it's just'magic and practise that everyone could learn, even without believing in R'hllor, or that the actual god gives the power to true believers. We know from Melissandre that practise is indeed necessary..

I actually I am what I call a liberal catholic, I dont follow everything because men made the laws and were interpreting what God wanted, and in my mind they interpreted it wrong, the same thing in ASOIF I think there have been examples already illustrated that Gods or magic do exist, however my religion does not dedicate my believes when reading or watching tv.

I wouldn't call it 'dedicating' believes in any case, but I can imagine religious people being more open to the existence of a divine being than non religious people. In ASOIAF it's pretty unclear whether they exist, or not, which makes it really a choice to believe in them or not.

Up until now in this thread it seems pretty unrelated though..

Once you die I guess, either you die and nothing happens, or you go to the light and see God.

You won't be able to tell anyone about it though..

[Bolivar]

I'm also Catholic, but I haven't made any conclusion yet. It's George's world, he can make it what he wants, and I think it's fascinating how ambiguous he's made it. I know his own religious beliefs change with the seasons, so I think it really could go either way.

If anything, I think the very harsh reality, horrible mutilations and (usual) finality of death makes it a pretty atheistic picture.

[TheNorthForgets]

Im a Christian but I dont find any religons in ASOIAF particulary enticing. A lot of them involve a lot of physical magic, fortune telling and are shallow. (from the reader viewpoint) Half of them are just meant for praying to in exchange for good luck. The other half is for the ability to use magic for personal ends. IMO magic and magical creatures exist in in ASOIAF but not gods, the magic is interpreted as god's work. I could be wrong but thats my view.

[Daenerys is my queen]

I'm a religious person IRL but I personally find it hard to believe that any of the gods in the series are real. Well, I do think the old gods are real. But I don't think they're gods exactly but more like Children of the Forest/spirit type things.

[LuisDantas]

I read an interesting thread yesterday with a discussion about whether the Gods in ASOIAF exsist, or that the is 'just' magic and natural forces, and the Gods are just invented to explain them.

Some people believe one thing, and some the other, and it made me wonder whether people who are religious are more inclined to believe in true religions in ASOIAF.

I think it is difficult to answer such a inquiry in any meaningful way without first specifying which of the various possible definitions of "religion" and "religious people" are being used. There are those who say that Buddhism isn't a religion, while I would be hard pressed to consider Ann Coulter or Sarah Palin religious.

A closely related matter is what you consider as being the boundaries among religion, tradition, belief and superstition. That is a major can of worms in real life, somewhat less so in Westeros and Essos.

It can work both ways; if you already are religious, it might make you more open to the possibility of real gods in the books, but on the other hand it could make it harder to believe that there can be any other god besides your own, even in books.

Few monotheists seem to have a problem with C.S. Lewis and Tolkien depictions of gods, however. Even if the Middle Earth is only sort-of monotheistic. It probably helps that both writers are so explicitly Christian.

I think a true atheist, might never want to accept the possibility of any sort of God, but an agnostic might be very open to it.

Most atheists are also agnostics, however. In practice there is little difference. Atheism as a defining trait is definitely over-rated.

For what it is worth, very few atheists make an effort to "refuse" the idea of the existence of a god. We just notice that it is so unlikely that there is any. Ultimately, belief in God is far more of an aesthetical inclination than a choice. Many people try to force themselves into believing, but I'm convinced that true belief is so to speak a vocation that one is sort of born with.

So I would like to invite people to discuss here if they're religious themselves, and if they believe in ASOIAF Gods.

The Old Gods are very hard to doubt, since they are shown to be real outright. The question that remains is whether they should be considered deities. I would say that they should not, mainly because there is not really much of a difference between what they are shown to be and "simply" supernatural or paranormal creatures. That said, "god" is a very ill-defined concept, often enough intentionally so.

R'hllor is all but certain not to exist, however. If he did, he would be either a very sadistic, stupid or insane god, since he seems to make a point of not helping his devotees into making wise or at least informed decisions.

The Faith of the Seven is very interesting and respectable in its approach of wisdom-over-blind faith, which makes the actual existence of the Seven a moot point.

The Faceless Men are if anything even wiser in their sort-of-belief, that shows great anthropological insight.

Now, do I believe in the existence of any gods other than the Children in the world of Song? Certainly not. The idea of literally extant gods is somewhat self-contradictory in any world, real or fictional. It is no coincidence that religions tend to lose their way when they make a point of relying on their existence.

[DavosSeaworthy]

I'm an atheist, but regarding the SOIAF universe I've tended to believe in the Old Gods, they make the most sense and have a naturalist sort of view. I also understand that religion is not really a choice in our world or theirs for that matter, it is highly conditional as to where you are from. I don't think a Umber would wake up one day and say "golly gee, that drowned god sure has something going on doesn't he" . Look at Theon, he is Ironborn and still holds to the Drowned God despite being raised in Winterfell with the Old Gods and the Seven present. With R'holler, I see it as being one of the old gods to be honest, it may seem crackpottish, but I've always felt that this god was just one of the many old gods who had followers who learned how to use the related magics. It is an alternate world to ours, so it is hard in a world with magic to determine where religious power ends and magic begins.

[LuisDantas]

We have examples of choosing a religion in defiance of the beliefs one was grown into, however. Even among the Ironborn.

It is true that such stances are invariably linked to one's life experiences, as expected.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

Many people try to force themselves into believing, but I'm convinced that true belief is so to speak a vocation that one is sort of born with.

Sorry to OP for derailing, but I just want to say I think that this is so true, and the main reason that I have a serious problem with the idea that just because I don't believe the "correct" theology then I am doomed to hell. For so many years I lied to myself that I believed; tried for so long to believe after I stopped lying to myself. I still want to believe. But goddammit, I can't.

//end digression

[MisterCrist]

I've always kinda believed in ASOIAF that there is either

1. One god with multiple personalities hence why he can be worshiped in many forms. The rise of the Others is his fault by accident and he sets up precautions to stop the doom that has been created AAR.

or

2. That the gods of the world aren't deities but instead the magical forces which then men come along and put a 'face' to them.

I'm Agnostic

[Quiet Isle]

I've always kinda believed in ASOIAF that there is either

1. One god with multiple personalities hence why he can be worshiped in many forms. The rise of the Others is his fault by accident and he sets up precautions to stop the doom that has been created AAR.

or

2. That the gods of the world aren't deities but instead the magical forces which then men come along and put a 'face' to them.

I'm Agnostic

see two above.

[Kolantero]

For what it is worth, very few atheists make an effort to "refuse" the idea of the existence of a god.

I 've met way more atheists who would try to convince me that there is no god compared to religious people trying to convince me about their religion. So i guess it depends on where you live.

Most atheists are also agnostics, however. In practice there is little difference. Atheism as a defining trait is definitely over-rated.

No. (i 'm not expanding on the subject since it would be off-topic. But No.)

[LuisDantas]

I 've met way more atheists who would try to convince me that there is no god compared to religious people trying to convince me about their religion. So i guess it depends on where you live.

It does, but this is not what I was talking about.

What I said (and you quoted) was that Atheism does not take an active effort. It is simply a natural state of being, albeit not quite an universal one. Some people are born sort of "wired" as to believe in God. I don't think they are very many, however.

No. (i 'm not expanding on the subject since it would be off-topic. But No.)

Feel free to PM me if you would like to elaborate. I'm certainly curious.

[TheMysteriousOne]

I've barely every questioned the existence of God, I've only ever questioned if he actually cares what about goes on in the world and if I have it wrong.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I'm a Christian that had some agnostic thoughts & feelings for awhile. I look at the books this way...they are written by a nonbeliever, why would he put a "true" God in his books?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I consider myself a Christian but not an organized/dogmatic/evangelical one. I do not believe the gods in ASOIAF exist.

[TheZone]

Sorry to OP for derailing, but I just want to say I think that this is so true, and the main reason that I have a serious problem with the idea that just because I don't believe the "correct" theology then I am doomed to hell. For so many years I lied to myself that I believed; tried for so long to bielieve after I stopped lying to myself. I still want to believe. But goddammit, I can't.

//end digression

I totally agree, and I am Catholic I hate when people say "do this or you will go to hell" Honestly if you want to believe and you are a truly good person, that is all God can want from you. only God can decide if you go to hell, so the people who think that they are doing good by saying that are the ones who are doing wrong.

My Great Uncle, a Dominican priest has thought me some parts and others I have gained as well. I know you don't believe but I just wanted to let me you know that not all people who have religion are total assholes. Another end of digression.

[Kolantero]

It does, but this is not what I was talking about.

What I said (and you quoted) was that Atheism does not take an active effort.

I took the meaning of the verb "refuse" to be similar to "deny", as in "very few atheists make an effort to deny (publicly or in a debate) the idea of the existence of a god". Anyway since that wasn't what you meant, nevermind.

Feel free to PM me if you would like to elaborate. I'm certainly curious.

I'll send a PM tomorrow, don't have time now