Are religious people more or less inclined to believe in ASOIAF Gods?

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I read an interesting thread yesterday with a discussion about whether the Gods in ASOIAF exsist, or that the is 'just' magic and natural forces, and the Gods are just invented to explain them.

Some people believe one thing, and some the other, and it made me wonder whether people who are religious are more inclined to believe in true religions in ASOIAF. It can work both ways; if you already are religious, it might make you more open to the possibility of real gods in the books, but on the other hand it could make it harder to believe that there can be any other god besides your own, even in books.

I think a true atheist, might never want to accept the possibility of any sort of God, but an agnost might be very open to it.

So I would like to invite people to discuss here if they're religious themselves, and if they believe in ASOIAF Gods.

I personally am not religious, nor have I been raised that way, but I'm not a real atheist either. I see myself more like an agnost, and think there might be something more, but I see it more like a natural power/power of life, than like any religion described in books.

And that is exactly how I see the magic in the books. Powers that cannot be explained, but aren't necessarily divine. I think all religions eventually are the same thing; an explanation for the forces and magic of nature. Yes, even R'hllor. No doubt there is power (in the books) in fire and blood, but I think it's a 'natural' force, with no actual thinking god behind it.

So I'm looking forward to find out whether personal religion influences your view on book religion or not :)

PS. I really want no religion-bashing or anything like that here. I hope everyone can respect each others personal beliefs, nobody is stupid or naive for believing something different than you!

[Dr. Pepper]

This is one of those topics that make me wish the forum had a survey option thingy.

I'm atheist, but that does not necessarily mean that I'm less inclined to believe in the gods in this series, or in any piece of literature. I don't automatically incorporate my faith in science into what I'm reading. If sufficient evidence is given to prove that the gods in X story are real, then I will trust that they are real in that imaginary world. I've read a number of good books where the gods were real.

At this point, I don't not think sufficient evidence has been given in ASOIAF to prove the existence of gods. I do waver sometimes when it comes to the Old Gods and have spent quite a bit of time contemplating the definition of god and deity and divinity and such.

I do think that my background makes me a lot more critical of religions and religious leaders in the books. I grew up in a very conservative, bible-loving area. Being an atheist is nearly the worst thing ever in my hometown and family. My personal evolution from super believer to atheism wasn't an easy one so I find myself casting a more suspicious and critical eye when trying to assess the various religions and fanatics in the books.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I'm an agnostic leaning towards atheism, but I'm willing to believe that gods exist in this universe, provided enough evidence is given.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

This is one of those topics that make me wish the forum had a survey option thingy.

I'm atheist, but that does not necessarily mean that I'm less inclined to believe in the gods in this series, or in any piece of literature. I don't automatically incorporate my faith in science into what I'm reading. If sufficient evidence is given to prove that the gods in X story are real, then I will trust that they are real in that imaginary world. I've read a number of good books where the gods were real.

At this point, I don't not think sufficient evidence has been given in ASOIAF to prove the existence of gods. I do waver sometimes when it comes to the Old Gods and have spent quite a bit of time contemplating the definition of god and deity and divinity and such.

I do think that my background makes me a lot more critical of religions and religious leaders in the books. I grew up in a very conservative, bible-loving area. Being an atheist is nearly the worst thing ever in my hometown and family. My personal evolution from super believer to atheism wasn't an easy one so I find myself casting a more suspicious and critical eye when trying to assess the various religions and fanatics in the books.

Yes a survey option would be great for this, but alas we have to manage without.

I think you basically see it the same way as I do, seeing it in the light where we see no actual proof that the magic comes from gods, but not ruling out the possibility. But I know there are people on the forum who do think the evidence is sufficient to prove the existence of at least some of the gods. I hope to see some replies from them too.

It's an interesting question; what exactly a god or deity is, that's probably very personal too.

I'm an agnostic leaning towards atheism, but I'm willing to believe that gods exist in this universe, provided enough evidence is given.

Interesting. I'm getting the sense from the few replies that agnostic/atheist people deal with it in a similar way. Open to the possibility, but only if convincing evidence is given, and just the existence of magic isn't enough.

Thanks for the replies both of you :)

[House Cearl]

I'm an agnostic leaning towards atheism, but I'm willing to believe that gods exist in this universe, provided enough evidence is given.

I'm agnostic as well (although raised in a hard Christian family), I wouldn't whip out the worship until I see proof lol. I think I'd carry the same belief and thoughts if I lived in Westeros even with the magic running around.

[RedBean]

It depends on the story - I think there's enough evidence shown in ASOIAF to make me believe that supernatural events take place there. I'm not sure about the gods being behind it, though. I feel like most things in the books can be explained away by just plain magic. Only R'hllor seems to actually give help of some sort to his followers, but that can also be seen as Mel's magic. So yeah, I'm sort of undecided against the existence of gods in Westeros, or at least if they exist, I don't think they really concern themselves with the happenings of mere humans.

Oh, and I'm athiest. Because my dad's an athiest, and my mom doesn't care to practise her religion very often.

[Kolantero]

I'm agnostic (although slightly leaning towards theism, something in the lines of 55% chance that there is some sort of God, 45% chance that there is not.)

About the books i was inclined to believe with a 90% certainty that at least some gods are true, such as the Red God or the Old Gods although there wasn't any irrefutable proof for that, just circumstansial evidence (e.g. Old Gods sending the Direwolf pups?). Less inclined to believe the same about the Seven since their follower do not show any extraordinary ability as far as i remember.

But then i read somewhere that GRRM said something in the lines of "no god will show up in the books or take direct part in the conflict" which dropped the chances i give to gods existing in ASOIAF to around 65%.

[Quiet Isle]

I don't think we'll see any gods in this series. I think that the Others up North, and the Others down south in Ashai are either humanoids or something innately natural in this world. and yes, i think there are some down south that caused the Doom. and I believe that the ice are male, the fire are female, dualities. now there has to be some magic thrown in, but no gods.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

Magic and sorcery certainly exist in the form of shadowbabies and various spells and things. Actual sentient, powerful gods are a little more questionable. I'm an atheist when it comes to The Drowned God and The Seven, agnostic toward the old gods, but inclined to believe that there is something to Rhllaasld;fal;sdf#@!; at the very least some dark magic if not actual gods.

[Tommen]

I was raised a Sikh, although personally I have difficulty reconciling belief in God with my more rational leanings and for the last few years I've identified tentatively as an atheist. I don't believe that there's any reason to believe in any of the gods in ASOIAF given that there's no real evidence for their existence. That said, I have a great respect for the religion of the Old Gods in particular, specifically because the Old Way seems to eschew austere ritual in favour of more practical ways such as adherence to a code of honour (sacred laws of hospitality, "he who passes the sentence should swing the sword" etc.) and humility and respect for the power of nature (because, after all, winter is coming). It's very easy to see the ways in which R'hllor and the Faith of the Seven, far more organised religions, are used control people rather than improve their lives.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I'm agnostic as well (although raised in a hard Christian family), I wouldn't whip out the worship until I see proof lol. I think I'd carry the same belief and thoughts if I lived in Westeros even with the magic running around.

I think I might be inclined to believe in some gods if I was living in Westeros. I would be seeing al this magic, that couldn't be explained. Maybe if the Westeros world was as evolved as ours, it could be explained by some sort of science, but in Westeros that science doesn't exsist. And the magic seems to be related to things that are seen as gods (R'hllor/Old Gods).

It depends on the story - I think there's enough evidence shown in ASOIAF to make me believe that supernatural events take place there. I'm not sure about the gods being behind it, though. I feel like most things in the books can be explained away by just plain magic. Only R'hllor seems to actually give help of some sort to his followers, but that can also be seen as Mel's magic. So yeah, I'm sort of undecided against the existence of gods in Westeros, or at least if they exist, I don't think they really concern themselves with the happenings of mere humans.

Oh, and I'm athiest. Because my dad's an athiest, and my mom doesn't care to practise her religion very often.

Oh I'm truly hoping to see some posts from religious people, and see if they have a different take on it :D

[Quiet Isle]

I was raised a Sikh, although personally I have difficulty reconciling belief in God with my more rational leanings and for the last few years I've identified tentatively as an atheist. I don't believe that there's any reason to believe in any of the gods in ASOIAF given that there's no real evidence for their existence. That said, I have a great respect for the religion of the Old Gods in particular, specifically because the Old Way seems to eschew austere ritual in favour of more practical ways such as adherence to a code of honour (sacred laws of hospitality, "he who passes the sentence should swing the sword" etc.) and humility and respect for the power of nature (because, after all, winter is coming). It's very easy to see the ways in which R'hllor and the Faith of the Seven, far more organised religions, are used control people rather than improve their lives.

I absolutely agree with everything you said. but i don't think R'hollor is a god either.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I'm agnostic (although slightly leaning towards theism, something in the lines of 55% chance that there is some sort of God, 45% chance that there is not.)

About the books i was inclined to believe with a 90% certainty that at least some gods are true, such as the Red God or the Old Gods although there wasn't any irrefutable proof for that, just circumstansial evidence (e.g. Old Gods sending the Direwolf pups?). Less inclined to believe the same about the Seven since their follower do not show any extraordinary ability as far as i remember.

But then i read somewhere that GRRM said something in the lines of "no god will show up in the books or take direct part in the conflict" which dropped the chances i give to gods existing in ASOIAF to around 65%.

Well this is interesting, cause it seems like you're slightly more religious in your personal life than the posters before you, and simultaneously maybe slightly more inclined to believe in ASOIAF gods.

I think for some people the fact that there is no direct intervention of any god, doesn't influence their belief in them, similar to real life basically.

I don't think we'll see any gods in this series. I think that the Others up North, and the Others down south in Ashai are either humanoids or something innately natural in this world. and yes, i think there are some down south that caused the Doom. and I believe that the ice are male, the fire are female, dualities. now there has to be some magic thrown in, but no gods.

Magic and sorcery certainly exist in the form of shadowbabies and various spells and things. Actual sentient, powerful gods are a little more questionable. I'm an atheist when it comes to The Drowned God and The Seven, agnostic toward the old gods, but inclined to believe that there is something to Rhllaasld;fal;sdf#@!; at the very least some dark magic if not actual gods.

May I ask if you both are religious in your personal lives, and if you think that influences your take on the ASOIAF gods?

I was raised a Sikh, although personally I have difficulty reconciling belief in God with my more rational leanings and for the last few years I've identified tentatively as an atheist. I don't believe that there's any reason to believe in any of the gods in ASOIAF given that there's no real evidence for their existence. That said, I have a great respect for the religion of the Old Gods in particular, specifically because the Old Way seems to eschew austere ritual in favour of more practical ways such as adherence to a code of honour (sacred laws of hospitality, "he who passes the sentence should swing the sword" etc.) and humility and respect for the power of nature (because, after all, winter is coming). It's very easy to see the ways in which R'hllor and the Faith of the Seven, far more organised religions, are used control people rather than improve their lives.

Yes I have a very deep respect for the Old Gods as well. I like the whole idea of honour, respect, and also the idea of worshipping nature (which is a more personal thing, for I see nature as the source of life in the real world, not that I'm really the treehugger type)

[Lady Lea]

I'm very religious, but while I do believe there is magic in the ASOIAF universe (warging, greenseeing, reviving, glamours, fire visions, etc) I don't believe they necessarily derive from the gods. I don't think it's conclusive whether they exist or not. The Old Gods, for example, if they do exist, are not all-powerful beings (they don't have power in the South, isn't that right?). If they're real they're probably like, influential spirits.

[TheMysteriousOne]

It depends on what I'm reading. In LOTR, there's Eru Illuvatar, and I believe he exists because it has been stated. I am personally, more or less Catholic, and I have struggled with my faith before. But I don't believe in the gods of ASOIAF.

[Quiet Isle]

Well this is interesting, cause it seems like you're slightly more religious in your personal life than the posters before you, and simultaneously maybe slightly more inclined to believe in ASOIAF gods.

I think for some people the fact that there is no direct intervention of any god, doesn't influence their belief in them, similar to real life basically.

May I ask if you both are religious in your personal lives, and if you think that influences your take on the ASOIAF gods?

Yes I have a very deep respect for the Old Gods as well. I like the whole idea of honour, respect, and also the idea of worshipping nature (which is a more personal thing, for I see nature as the source of life in the real world, not that I'm really the treehugger type)

Sure. Roman Catholic here, but have studied many religions and have drawn on them. the seven appear to align well with christianity, but the rituals are more RC. and i still say no gods in this series.

[Dr. Pepper]

I think I might be inclined to believe in some gods if I was living in Westeros. I would be seeing al this magic, that couldn't be explained. Maybe if the Westeros world was as evolved as ours, it could be explained by some sort of science, but in Westeros that science doesn't exsist. And the magic seems to be related to things that are seen as gods (R'hllor/Old Gods).

I disagree with this. I think scientific advances are pretty neat in Westeros. Engineering, chemistry, astronomy, meteorology (to an extinct), geology all exist in Westeros. They even have a basic form of penicillin! In the prologue to ACOK, Maester Cressen's primary complaint is that Mel has influenced people into believing that the red comet is there by the will of her god when it's just a comet with a scientific explanation.

I think most of the magic in the series can be explained by science. Wildfire and a lot of the red priest show of awe is just a bit of chemistry, for example. Most other magic operates in the scientific realm as it's something to be studied and learned, whereas magic gifted by the gods would be inherent. This is the reason I waver when it comes to the Old Gods, because I just can't seem to find a way to relegate it to science.

Sorry, got a bit off topic, but it's one of my favorite things to discuss!

[TheMysteriousOne]

I have always wondered, will humans ever be able to truly find out if there is a God or Gods?

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

I'm a skeptical person and therefore an atheist in real life. That skepticism causes me not to believe in The Drowned God (basically a CPR cult) and the Faith of the Seven, since neither have shown any evidence of being real.

Through Bran we learn that there are some mystical aspects to the old gods. Whether or not there are actual gods in the traditional sense is open to question. And we have empirical evidence that there is something going on with Ruh holla! unless someone has a real world explanation for shadowy things crawling out of Melly Sander's magic box.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Yeah, I believe that if any of these Gods are 'sentient', they wouldn't be gods in the traditional sense, they could be more like nature spirits.