Let's talk about transhumanism

[Sci-2]

Could nanites ever shepherd the development of fetuses in the womb? Could we plug in genes where they are lacking to ensure the baby is smarter/faster/harder/stronger?

[Simadhor_saan]

Anything to make human beings better than we are is cool in my book. The whole idea makes me think of

[Larry of the Lawn]

During that period where the technology is available to some but too expensive for others there ought to be an explosion of 'underdog' art with the biologically pure, inferior hero pitted against the improved human antogonist. It'll be like a century of watching Gattacca and listening to OK Computer over and over again.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Anything to make human beings better than we are is cool in my book. The whole idea makes me think of

He lost me at, "I want to smell dark matter". :ack:

[Simadhor_saan]

but what does it smell like and what is smell if you don't have a nose?

[Sci-2]

One thing I'm curious about is the range of surgeries that alter the body. This isn't exactly transhuman, but in time I think this will pave the way towards an acceptance of body modification.

I'm specifically thinking of Otherkin here and the ability to alter one's body. It presents an interesting case when considering the extremes - in principle you would want such people to be free from discrimination but what if someone really does want to have a face that looks like a shrimp?

I suspect we'll see some balance, where some level of alteration falls under protection from discrimination but not heavy amounts of transformation.

From there, of course are the people fitted with better limbs or eyes or maybe parts of the brain [after an accident]. Do they get a leg up in society? What if you can patch your brain with external devices [based on those prosthetics] to boost IQ and memory?

And what happens when you think your kids need one of those brain boosters to compete?

[Francis Buck]

By balance here I see...hypocrisy I guess? It's basically going to depend on the smell test, someone wanting to cut off their penis can be made sympathetic and such but I think that far too many people just find the sort of changes you're talking about...icky. I would think that for practicality's sake the line would be drawn at what would permanently affect your ability to fit in with human society, e.g. you don't get to have snails for arms or something.

Why draw the line there when it has already been crossed with people like this.

[Spring Bass]

I think the only real "transhumanism" would be if we either create AI/simulated humans that are vastly more intelligent than human beings, or we somehow figure out how to gradually replace neurons and connections in the brain with artificial neurons (or even neurons virtualized in a computer server) while maintaining continuity of consciousness throughout the process. The other stuff entails some vast changes in human existence and lives (particularly stuff like on-going Desire and Mood Modification without the need for drugs), but it's not really "trans"-human.

One thing to keep in mind is that while there are often unexpected gains, there can be unexpected barriers and engineering issues down the line as well.

[Francis Buck]

I think the only real "transhumanism" would be if we either create AI/simulated humans that are vastly more intelligent than human beings, or we somehow figure out how to gradually replace neurons and connections in the brain with artificial neurons (or even neurons virtualized in a computer server) while maintaining continuity of consciousness throughout the process. The other stuff entails some vast changes in human existence and lives (particularly stuff like on-going Desire and Mood Modification without the need for drugs), but it's not really "trans"-human.

One thing to keep in mind is that while there are often unexpected gains, there can be unexpected barriers and engineering issues down the line as well.

As often seems to be the case, I pretty much totally agree. I also think that -- aside from the direct digitization of the brain and/or creation of super A.I.'s -- a lot of the stuff we now think of as being totally crazy transhuman tech will actually rather gradually integrate itself into society "without anybody really noticing". In other words, we already have stuff like cybernetic hearing implants, robotic prosthesis, people having fangs surgically grafted into their mouths, super extreme body modification (The Vampire Woman), so on and so forth. So while making your face look like a cat or something seems over-the-top extreme right now (even though people are already trying to do it), I think the steps up to that point will be slow and "smooth" enough that there won't be as massive a backlash to it as people might expect. This is also part of why I disagree with Ray Kurzweil's whole singularity idea, in that I don't believe there will really be as much of an "explosion" of this tech, so much as a relatively gradual adoption of it. It will still be fast by historical (and possibly even modern) standards, but I don't believe we're going to wake up one day with super-human intelligence being a reality.

[Spring Bass]

A lot of it will definitely "sneak up" on people. Prosthetic legs and arms, for example, have greatly improved over the years, but most people aren't more that slightly aware of this. I tend to think that a lot of new body modifications and implants will show up the same way. It might take them much longer to spread beyond medical use, particularly if they require invasive surgery.

[Castel]

A lot of it will definitely "sneak up" on people.

You already see the crazy modifications being put on TV and passing as little more than daily curiosity stories. Icky stories but stories to be discussed for five minutes then forgotten.

I would think that it would more likely become a big issue if someone legislates or rules on it, which I have the nagging suspicion would happen. God forbid one of these extreme modification people gets diagnosed with some illness and ends up suing.

[Happy Ent]

What I think is completely plausible is “eugenics at home.”

The egalitarian utopia (which I share) is that society will increasingly stratify along cognitive parameters: intelligence (rather than wealth, beauty, class, race, religion) will become the individual variable that most strongly correlates with your life outcome. (This is already true in large parts of the world, especially the Enlightened West.)

At the same time, our understanding neuorophysiology, cognition, population genetics, prenatal development, diagnostics, etc. increases dramatically.

It seems completely plausible to me that we will be able to offer pretty accurate pre-natal diagnostics for intelligence, so that we can artificially select for intelligence privately.

(Few of the other transhumanist predictions seems plausible to me, in particular those involving digital Strong A.I. Of course, this may be because I understand A.I. pretty well. Maybe if I knew more about the genetics of intelligence, I’d not believe that either… Transhumanism may require ignorance.)

[AverageGuy]

He lost me at, "I want to smell dark matter". :ack:

On Soviet planet, dark matter is you.

[Spring Bass]

At the same time, our understanding neuorophysiology, cognition, population genetics, prenatal development, diagnostics, etc. increases dramatically.

It seems completely plausible to me that we will be able to offer pretty accurate pre-natal diagnostics for intelligence, so that we can artificially select for intelligence privately.

I'm not so sure. Even with extensive knowledge of human cognitive development, there might not be in-womb "precursors" that predict expected intelligence in youth and adulthood to any useful degree. Or there may be situations like with genetically analyzing cancer, where trying to tie down which genetic factors are tied to which progression of development is incredibly difficult (simply because there are so many of them, as with mutations in a malignant tumor).

(Few of the other transhumanist predictions seems plausible to me, in particular those involving digital Strong A.I. Of course, this may be because I understand A.I. pretty well. Maybe if I knew more about the genetics of intelligence, I’d not believe that either… Transhumanism may require ignorance.)

Strong AI requires mental capabilities far beyond those of a baseline human . . . whatever that means. Like a human mind, only vastly faster? That's something I've heard from people arguing for full-brain simulation - that once they've created a simulated human mind, they can put it in a simulated environment and run the subjective speed of the whole thing for many, many times faster than our normal experience. Like a computer, only able to do . . . more?

Honestly, I'm not sure what a transhuman intelligence is actually supposed to do, aside from simply being able to do more stuff (like a computer analyzing tons of data for certain patterns).

[Sci-2]

@HE: Read my mind, I was wondering about IQ-selective abortions. Though that's really part of the ice-berg that's above the surface:

Corporations/governments will need test subjects for varied procedures, so I can see a market for "humans" that are modified to never have more intellect than, say, a pig or a rabbit.

Instead of getting rid of fertilized eggs or "wasting" them on stem cell research, why not grow these Sranc pseudo-humans and use them? As artifacts of the Tekne, we can be assured they have no souls right?

In some ways, assuming pseudo-humans will be used is sort of idealistic. More likely various organizations will just snatch up kids that would otherwise end up as street children.

[Spring Bass]

There's no need, since they can probably find volunteers for a couple hundred bucks. Quite a few people in the developing world will already sell a kidney for a few thousand dollars, for example.

Besides, I think you under-estimate how quickly stuff ends up on camera these days.

[Happy Ent]

Corporations/governments will need test subjects for varied procedures, so I can see a market for "humans" that are modified to never have more intellect than, say, a pig or a rabbit.

Nah, I can’t see that work. You mean for medical research? A room full of lobotomised pieces of flesh that react correctly to various treatments but are otherwise disposable? I don’t think that’s compatible with our ethics trajectory, which goes towards being increasingly inclusive of intellectually deviant humans.

Also, it would have zero impact on society. Marginally better cosmetics with fewer rashes.

[Sci-2]

@HE: You don't think security/profit motivated organizations will need test subjects for genetic/cybernetic modification?

I suppose utilizing mental/physical prothestics on the willing will gets us past a certain point, but I'm not convinced there will be a way to avoid some "dark night" period.

(To be fair, the Sranc-human thing is sort of a joke.)

[Castel]

I can see a sort of career guinea pig that can selectively turn off certain sensations (like pain) I just can't see it being forced on anyone except through a lack of other options.

[Happy Ent]

I can see a sort of career guinea pig that can selectively turn off certain sensations (like pain) I just can't see it being forced on anyone except through a lack of other options.

Most of all, I can’t see it change anything. So what if a million people are subjected to horrible lives in some kind of Dunyain torture chamber? It will have zero effect on civilisation.