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AzureOwl

The Extent of the Valyrian Empire

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Considering that we have as yet not heard about a building like the Dragonpit in Valyria, it's actually very likely that all the Valyrian dragons nested around the Fourteen Flames. I'd not be surprised if originally every dragonriding family claimed one volcano for their family dragons, until the number of dragonlords climbed over fourteen.



It's also possible that the Valyrians realized early on that the dragons were both the source of their power as well as the main reason for infighting and a mortal danger. This could have led to a law forbidding any dragonrider to enter the city of Valyria on dragonback, similar to the law forbidding Roman generals and their legion to enter the sacred city. If Rome is any indication, then such a law was ignored from time to time, but it could have prevented the dragonlords from housing their dragons on their own estates within the city walls.



If the Valyrians had housed their dragons in small buildings on their estates for thousands of years, the explanation that the Dragonpit may have slowed the growth of the Targaryen dragons later on would not be very convincing. That is as long as the Valyrian dragons did not suffer the same fate (and that seems not to be the case).


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If the Valyrians had housed their dragons in small buildings on their estates for thousands of years, the explanation that the Dragonpit may have slowed the growth of the Targaryen dragons later on would not be very convincing. That is as long as the Valyrian dragons did not suffer the same fate (and that seems not to be the case).

In my opinion, The Princess and the Queen completely disproves the "Dragonpit as cause for the stunting of the dragons" theory. Now we know that the main nesting place of the dragons was in Dragonstone.

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Yes, that seems to be the case. But if the Valyrians had had buildings similar to the Dragonpit for their dragons the Dragonpit explanation would not have made much sense when people first came up with it (or tried to plant it as a smokescreen).



The fact that Vermithor, Dreamfyre, and Silverwing are really big dragons who all hatched about the time Maegor finished the Dragonpit cast major doubts on this theory, especially since Vermithor and Silverwing, the dragons of the king and queen, must spent most of the reign of Jaehaerys in KL.


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The best I can come up with is that perhaps in Valyria they controlled the dragon population. Just because the Targaryens were a minor dragonlord family, they couldn't be allowed to own more dragons than the great families. And the great families number of usable dragons would be restricted by the number of members of that family.

Or else the dragon population might have been limited by the available and allocated dragon pastures. At Dragonstone, how many hatchlings did Cannibal devour?

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The Lands of Ice and Fire also clearly shows cities on the Dothraki Sea that were of Ghiscari origin: Ghazdaq and Hazdahn No. The cities of Sarnor also sound more Valyrian to me: Essaria, Sarnath, Kasath, Sathar, Gornath, Sallosh, Saath and Morosh. It's possible that Sarnor was a client-kingdom of Valyria founded later on, or an amalgamation of Valyrian influences and more local origins. If Sarnor covered most of the western and central Dothraki Sea, its ancestors could have been more peaceful versions of the Dothraki who were keener to settle down.

On this basis, the Ghiscari borders could have pushed down into the Red Waste to Qarkash and as far east almost to the Bone Mountains. However, Adakhakileki and Yinishar sound like they could be part of a different cultural tradition. The former sounds like it could come from the same naming convention as Kayakayanaya, to the north-east beyond the mountains.

The latest update of the Ice and Fire App clarifies a lot of these speculations.

Sarnor was a great and ancient kingdom that at its height stretched from the Forest of Qohor in the west to beyond the now vanished Silver Sea in the east. That cluster of Sarnori cities in eastern Sarnor were built on the shores of that sea, which would make those lakes in the maps remnants of that sea.

It was a confederation of city-states, each with its own king, but the Kingdom was ruled by a High King.

Sarnath, Kasath, Sathar, Gornath and Sallosh, were Sarnori cities. Saath is all that is left of Sarnor.

Essaria was a Valyrian colony and Morosh is a Lorathi colony.

References to a Sarnori king who allied himself with the Dothraki against the other Sarnori kings after the Doom implies that at the time of the Doom Sarnor was not ruled directly by Valyrian governors, which makes me think that Sarnor was a client kingdom. The fact that Essaria was the only Valyrian colony in the region, as opposed to the Free Cities region which is full of them, also supports this.

Also, Most of the cities in the Red Waste are Qartheen, with Port Yhos marking the westward limit of Qartheen power.

The people of Yinishar were kin of the people of Samyriana and the people of Adakhakileki were a people apart that no one will miss.

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Do we know if Morosh existed at the time of the Doom or if it has been founded by Lorath since?


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I'd guess that Morosh was founded after the Doom, since it would have been a Valyrian and not a Lorathi colony if it would have been founded before the Doom. That is, if Lorath was not independent before the Doom took Valyria. It's somewhat strange to imagine Lorath as a colony controlled directly from Valyria until Doom, if Braavos was close by, and apparently never discovered by the Valyrians. It could very well be that Lorath was a colony that was de facto independent some time before the Doom struck.


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I'd guess that Morosh was founded after the Doom, since it would have been a Valyrian and not a Lorathi colony if it would have been founded before the Doom. That is, if Lorath was not independent before the Doom took Valyria. It's somewhat strange to imagine Lorath as a colony controlled directly from Valyria until Doom, if Braavos was close by, and apparently never discovered by the Valyrians. It could very well be that Lorath was a colony that was de facto independent some time before the Doom struck.

But take into account that we don’t know how old Lorath is. It could have been founded shortly before the Doom, so they didn’t have time to discover Braavos.

If that’s the case, Braavos’s days were numbered. The Doom not only allowed them to reveal themselves, it may have also saved them from discovery.

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What about Sarys? If it's not Sarnori, what is it?


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What about Sarys? If it's not Sarnori, what is it?

Damn! I screwed up and didn't include Sarys on the list.

Sarys was a Sarnori city. In fact it was the last Sarnori city to fall to the Dothraki.

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Excellent. Do we know what city was the capital? I'm guessing Sarnath, from the name.


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Hm for the first time I actually feel compelled to buy the app. Or is all this stuff in the free version because it's not information from a specific book?


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Excellent. Do we know what city was the capital? I'm guessing Sarnath, from the name.

You got it right! Sarnath of the Tall Towers was the seat of the High King of Sarnor.

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Ohhh, please feed me with information! What does it say about Yi Ti and other lands?

Thank you about the info of Kingdom of Sarnor, Azure!

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Ohhh, please feed me with information! What does it say about Yi Ti and other lands?

Yi Ti is said to be ruled by a God-Emperor, but he seems to be a figurehead, as the kingdom is made up of a patchwork of princedoms that really run things. It also extends much further north than I imagined, since the city of Tiqui is one of its ancient capitals, so it’s unlikely it sat too near the border. Asabhad sits on its western border of Yi Ti but it’s unclear if it’s part of the kingdom or not.

Leng is very rich and ruled by god-empresses. The people of northern Leng are descended from the people of Yi Ti, while southern Leng is inhabited by a different people who were native to the island. Leng Ma is the capital.

Most of Great Moraq’s population lives in the western coast.

As for the trade, if you put together the hints in all the entries of the locations in the Jade Sea, you get a clear idea of how it works. The way I interpret it, because of the prevailing winds, there’s only one way in and one way out of the Jade Sea. You go in thru Qarth and the Jade Gates, and then the trader’s circle goes all the way around and comes back out thru the Cinnamon Straits. Most of the trade passes thru Zabhad on the way out. I speculate that most of the ships coming out of the Cinnamon Straits head towards Qarth with their cargos rather than risk running the gauntlet between Valyria and the pirate infested waters of the Basilisk Isles.

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Omg. This god emperor thing sounds like Chinese emperors and the Pharaoh. Well I figure it out myself that Tiqui was a Yi Ti city as it sounds like YiTish. Do we know how do they look? I think Asabhad is a sister city of Bayasabhad, Samyriana and Kayakayanaya. Thank you so much!!

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Are the Five Forts on the borders of Yi Ti? And are the capitals of Yi Ti and Leng identified?


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Do we know how do they look? I think Asabhad is a sister city of Bayasabhad, Samyriana and Kayakayanaya. Thank you so much!!

No description of the people of Yi Ti.

Bayasabhad and Samyriana are said to be remnants of a long fallen civilization called the Patrimony of Hyrkoon*, whose heartland is assumed to have been in what is today the Great Sand Sea.

Are the Five Forts on the borders of Yi Ti? And are the capitals of Yi Ti and Leng identified?

The Five Forts are conspicuously without an entry.

Leng Ma is called the chief city of Leng, but the current capital of Yi Ti is unmentioned, only that Tiqui was “one of the ancient capitals” and “home to some of its god-emperors in days past”. Yin is called the great port city of that kingdom and Jinqi has no entry. I’m assuming that in further similarity to China, Yi Ti has changed its capital several times over the millennia.

* I'm asuming Hyrkoon is an allusion to something or somebody in fantasy or sci-fi but I'm drawing a blank.

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Hyrkoon is a city in the John Carter of Mars series :)


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Patrimony :o I thought they were like the Amazons and have a matriarchal culture but well it could change over time.

Okaaay. What about Jogos Nhai, the winged men and such?! :p

I hope I'm not bothering you :(

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