NFL 2012 Week 14 - We want a good snow game !

[Jaime L]

Peter Tom Willis (92-93)

I can't tell if he sounds more like a pirate or a folk musician.

[Kalbear]

To put it another way: two of the most successful quarterbacks in bears history have been Eric Kramer and Jim Harbaugh.

[Independent George]

I mean, I don't love the guy. He made me endure an entire season with Tony Banks at QB. But is there any guy who gets less respect for winning as much as he did? Hell, he made the Browns a powerhouse. He's totally forgotten in head coach discussions (even though I think he's on record as wanting to return) and the only time he does come up is in discussion of guys who couldn't win the big one.

I love Marty. In 25 seasons as a Head Coach, the man had exactly two losing seasons: the 1998 Chiefs (7-9), and the 2003 Chargers (4-12). Four teams and 25 years, and he finished at .500 or above 23 times.

He was too conservative for my tastes, and his playoff record stinks - there's no escaping that - but the man was one of the greatest coaches of all time. If Earnest Byner or Marlon McCree don't fumble, he might be in the Hall of Fame. (The Marlon McCree fumble is especially bad; NFL Films has a clip of him during the pre-game warmups telling the DBs to fall down if they make the game-clinching interception).

I thought Marty getting fired from Washington was disgraceful. That team had no business finishing at .500 - and Snyder axed him for Steve Spurrier.

[Mexal]

I love Marty. In 25 seasons as a Head Coach, the man had exactly two losing seasons: the 1998 Chiefs (7-9), and the 2003 Chargers (4-12). Four teams and 25 years, and he finished at .500 or above 23 times.

Holy shit. That's incredible.

[balefired-ed]

God those Browns teams Marty had kicked ass. Clay Matthews, Bob Golic, Frank Minnifield, Hanford Dixon, Bernie Kosar, Webster Slaughter, Earnest Byner, Kevin Mack, Ozzie Newsome.

That team should have made and won a Super Bowl. Oh well.

[Jaime L]

I thought Marty getting fired from Washington was disgraceful.

Completely agree, that was a travesty. But wasn't San Diego even worse in retrospect? You mentioned the whole Marlon Mcree thing which was one of the most ridiculous mistakes I've ver seen, but if Nate Kaeding could make a damn clutch field goal in either 2004 or 2006, they still win those games. How's that on Marty?

And then to fire him for Norv Turner, Marty's exact opposite, the guy with a preternatural ability to turn chicken salad back into chickenshit? It boggles the mind.

[Maithanet]

Completely agree, that was a travesty. But wasn't San Diego even worse in retrospect? You mentioned the whole Marlon Mcree thing which was ridiculous, but if Nate Kaeding could make a damn clutch field goal in either 2004 or 2006, they win those games. How's that on Marty?

And then to fire him for Norv Turner, Marty's exact opposite, the guy with a preternatural ability to turn chicken salad back into chickenshit? It boggles the mind.

Yeah, I've heard that a lot of players really don't like him. That he would go to rather extreme and seemingly petty measures to ensure that things like curfew are followed, etc. He is without a doubt a pretty strict disciplinarian. It's possible that some owners don't like this schtick, particularly the owners who want to be best friends with their players (looking at you here Snyder).

Nonetheless, the fact that he can't get a job is pretty baffling. There are so many guys who get a second chance after woefully bad first terms as coaches, and his last two coaching stints were, in hindsight, pretty obviously successes.

[Independent George]

Completely agree, that was a travesty. But wasn't San Diego even worse in retrospect? You mentioned the whole Marlon Mcree thing which was ridiculous, but if Nate Kaeding could make a damn clutch field goal in either 2004 or 2006, they win those games. How's that on Marty?

And then to fire him for Norv Turner, Marty's exact opposite, the guy with a preternatural ability to turn chicken salad back into chickenshit? It boggles the mind.

I actually can put Nate Kaeding on Marty; if I recall correctly, he played typical Martyball and went for a long FG instead of trying to advance the ball. That's a legitimate criticism for him - he was way, way, way too conservative. Firing Marty for Norvilicious is bad, but somewhat more justified. The rumor I'd heard was that Marty wanted to bring his son in as OC, and AJ Smith (rightly, in my opinion) nixed the idea. Brian Schottenheimer has been awful with the Jets, but it's hard to separate him from their QBs. You could also make the case that Norv, for all his faults as a HC, is an excellent mentor to young QBs, and a needed addition for Phillip Rivers.

[awesome possum]

PFF has him rated as the 26th (out of 35 that have taken 50% or more snaps) inside LB in the league at the moment. They say he's playing pretty well in pass coverage but horrible in run defense. I think he has 10 missed tackles, the 9th most in the league.

Jay Cutler is also ranked in the 20s this season statistically. I don't think anyone would argue that he's the 20th or worst QB in the league.

[Jaime L]

Yeah, I've heard that a lot of players really don't like him. That he would go to rather extreme and seemingly petty measures to ensure that things like curfew are followed, etc. He is without a doubt a pretty strict disciplinarian. It's possible that some owners don't like this schtick, particularly the owners who want to be best friends with their players (looking at you here Snyder).

Yeah, all this, and I heard Snyder bristled at his perceived arrogance - the whole "I'm a pretty damn good coach" boast after finishing the year 8-3. Snyder was also still very much in his wannabe Jerry Jones phase and couldn't abide by a coach who would steal the spotlight from him.

I actually can put Nate Kaeding on Marty; if I recall correctly, he played typical Martyball and went for a long FG instead of trying to advance the ball. That's a legitimate criticism for him - he was way, way, way too conservative. Firing Marty for Norvilicious is bad, but somewhat more justified. The rumor I'd heard was that Marty wanted to bring his son in as OC, and AJ Smith (rightly, in my opinion) nixed the idea. Brian Schottenheimer went to the Jets as OC the next year, and was terrible. You could also make the case that Norv, for all his faults as a HC, is an excellent mentor to young QBs, and a needed addition for Phillip Rivers.

The insane conservatism was infuriating. He was a guy who figured out all the hard stuff - imposing discipline, building dominant defenses, winning games whereever he went - but when it came down to simple beneficial risk taking or understanding the percentage play in game situations, he was awful.

And sure you can put some blame on Marty for pulling a Jason Garrett and settling for a long FG. But Kaeding has always been among the most accurate kickers in football year after year...except in the clutch. It's really uncanny. He's the bizarro Adam Vinatieri. And so when it comes down to all those ridiculously brutal and uncanny playoff losses that Schottenheimer presided over I can't help but feel like an amazingly diverse set of players from Byner to Mcree to Kaeding have withered in the biggest possible moments of their career. Maybe it has something to do with the tense atmosphere Schottenheimer sets? I dunno, seems like a stretch. I don't think there's a thing Belichick did that made Vinatieri more clutch. Every Superbowl winning coach needs guys to step up in the biggest moments and for whatever reason, no-one ever did for Marty.

I'm not saying Schottenheimer should be absolved of all blame for his over-conservatism as a coach, but I think we also need to recognize how profoundly and uniquely unlucky he was as well.

[Mexal]

Jay Cutler is also ranked in the 20s this season statistically. I don't think anyone would argue that he's the 20th or worst QB in the league.

Yes, but he's graded as the 13th best QB which to me, sounds about right.

[Sivin]

So Goodell has thrown out an idea to replace kickoffs.

I kind of like it. The kickoff is such a non-event right now, I'd be in favor of replacing it with any actual football play.

That's the worst idea I've ever heard in my life. Ever.

The loyalty and number of opportunities given to Sanchez is pretty incredible. Admittedly, the team has also done things to sabotage him along the way, Tebow being the obvious example, but nonetheless, he has started, what, four years now? Five? And has been obviously below average every year.

Below Average is a generous assessment. I'd say he went from below average, to slightly closer to average, to horrible, to disgusting.

The late 90s in general was not a great time for qb play. There were a lot of great qbs in the 90s, like Young, Aikman, Moon, Kelly, Marino, and Elway, but by around 2000 all those guys were either retired or well past their prime. Most of the great quarterbacks of the 2000s weren't on the scene yet, with the exception of Brett Favre.

Maybe it's because I didn't start watching football until around 2005, but I've always had a low opinion of Brett Favre. He was a high-turnover guy who didn't pull his team to victory on his back like the (in my opinion) truly elite do.

[Jaime L]

That's the worst idea I've ever heard in my life. Ever.

Uh, why?

[Maithanet]

Maybe it's because I didn't start watching football until around 2005, but I've always had a low opinion of Brett Favre. He was a high-turnover guy who didn't pull his team to victory on his back like the (in my opinion) truly elite do.

He's not my favorite either, but there were about five years when he was arguably the best quarterback in the league. And before the Packers defense fell apart on him, he was a real terror. If Terrell Davis wasn't so ridiculous, he would have been Super Bowl MVP two straight years.

[Independent George]

Maybe it's because I didn't start watching football until around 2005, but I've always had a low opinion of Brett Favre. He was a high-turnover guy who didn't pull his team to victory on his back like the (in my opinion) truly elite do.

Yeah, then you missed the MVP years in the 90s, where he just dominated the league with a bunch of nobodies at WR. He had Sterling Sharpe for one season before he broke his neck and had to retire, and a young Greg Jennings (full of potential, but he really hadn't yet learned to play yet). Donald Driver was probably the best receiver he ever had.

[balefired-ed]

That kickoff idea is terrible. The good returners have already adapted to the new rule and have figured out how and when to return kickoffs. The kickoff is not a non-event, it is still an important part of the game.

Also, this basically spells the removal of the onside kick, which really pisses me off. Surprise onside kicks can change the face of the game, and I imagine recovering a non-surprise onside kick is drastically easier than converting a 4th and 15 for a team trying to make a desperate comeback.

[trickster]

The late 90s in general was not a great time for qb play. There were a lot of great qbs in the 90s, like Young, Aikman, Moon, Kelly, Marino, and Elway, but by around 2000 all those guys were either retired or well past their prime. Most of the great quarterbacks of the 2000s weren't on the scene yet, with the exception of Brett Favre.

I think you need to include Favre in the 90's as well; he won 3 MVPs in the 90's. He was really up and down in the 2000s.

[trickster]

Yeah, then you missed the MVP years in the 90s, where he just dominated the league with a bunch of nobodies at WR. He had Sterling Sharpe for one season before he broke his neck and had to retire, and a young Greg Jennings (full of potential, but he really hadn't yet learned to play yet). Donald Driver was probably the best receiver he ever had.

QFT; people now often forget how good Favre was. He never got to play with a truly elite receiver. He made Sidney Rice and Javon Walker look like all pros.

[Jaime L]

That kickoff idea is terrible. The good returners have already adapted to the new rule and have figured out how and when to return kickoffs. The kickoff is not a non-event, it is still an important part of the game.

It is a non-event. Feels like 8 times out of 10, there is no kickoff return. The vast majority of the time it's a triviality between two commerical breaks.

Even when there is a return now, most of the time the guy gets to the 15. Why are we so desperate to keep this?

Also, this basically spells the removal of the onside kick, which really pisses me off. Surprise onside kicks can change the face of the game, and I imagine recovering a non-surprise onside kick is drastically easier than converting a 4th and 15 for a team trying to make a desperate comeback.

Dude, have you seen the conversion rates on non-surprise onside kicks? It's under 10%. 4th and 15 is about the perfect corollary and at least that's based on actual skill as opposed to a lucky bounce.

And sure I'll miss that one surprise onside kick every third week in the NFL, but somehow I'll get by.

[Mexal]

It has now been reported. AJ Smith and Norv Turner to be fired at the end of the season. No surprise.