Ice Turtle Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Truthfully we never see him doing anything great, everything memorable (Castemere, keeping Aerys in charge) happened in the past. Even RW was work of Roose and Freys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear Us Roar Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 He had his flaws. being blind to the incest of his kids. Seriously he should have sent them on different sides of the continent.Anyway he was top form in most regards but his family was most important to him, at least that the name live on. Had his wife lived things may have been totally different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bronn Stokeworth Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Unless someone who caught them told him (which I doubt they did), I can't blame Tywin for missing it. Whose going to suspect their children screwing each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavosSeaworthy Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Tywin was blind to the abilities of Tyrion, who could have been a huge asset instead of his downfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Tywin was perfect if you only pay attention to his successes. Even those are marred with controversy. History is truly written by the victors. Everyone will remember (but no one will mention) that Tywin never beat Robb in the field. All of the marriage ideas he had for his children flopped. Jon Arryn made Cersei queen, not Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wall Crusher Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 So basically the guy never makes any mistakes and is able to plan extremely intricate stuff way a head of time (Red Wedding).The only flaw he has in the series is hubris which leads him to getting beat by Robb Stark a few times but he still beats Robb in the end.I mean even when Tywin was younger he knew EXACTLY how and why Jon Connington would fail when it was announced that JonCon would become the new hand of the king.I just think he's a little TOO elite sometimes.Thoughts?If Tywin was perfect he would have truly shit gold in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Went Whent Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 If he were really that flawless, he'd've never been killed by his own son while sitting on the shitter. All the strategic brilliance in the world can't make up for that kind of end.That's why I don't wanna grow old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Tywin had his flaws but those were overshadowed by his qualities.The failed with his children in that he made the mistake of forgetting that they had wills of their own and in most other things he either managed to turn reversals or he was successful.He crushed the Reynes and Tarbecks, he ruled for twenty years as Hand of Aerys, he integrated himself into the rebel cause and married his daughter with the king, he was to knowledge unbeat on the field of battle, he's to smart to fall into obvious traps and he knows enough to put the right man to the right task. As seen with both Tyrion and Gregor. Furthermore he would, if anyone could, have raised Tommen to become a good and true king and given the realm peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor227 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Tywin was a harsh guy for sure, and vengeful. He didn't take things to the absolute scorched-earth when slighted, as we see when he negotiated with the defeated Riverlords and offered decent terms to end the war, but parties that slight him directly? They're utterly screwed, as are people who are -used- to slight him.The Reynes and Tarbecks to start, but it doesn't end there. Aerys declines the marriage offer with Cersei and Rhaegar? Guess whose men are tromping around the Red Keep killing Aerys grandchildren? Ellia? The unwitting pawn of her mother paying back an insult by a grieving Tywin, and utterly nonsensical person to kill with no husband and other Targs? Dead. Very dead. Tyrion's captured, and Tywin automatically defaults to "teach the Riverlands a harsh lesson"-mode to tell the realm the Lannisters aren't to be trifled with.It made them enemies, sure. But it also won Tywin a -ton- of respect. He had the administrative chops from ruling the realm in Aerys' stead for twenty years, and he was a guy that everyone in the realm was utterly sure could be trusted to do the absolute most ruthlessly effective thing when it's called upon, and take any personal slights very, very, seriously. Heck, Vargo Hoat took Jaime's hand, and it still wasn't enough to convince Roose Bolton to turn back to the Stark cause. Instead he sent Jaime back off to King's Landing on his -word- (No one takes Jaime's word, ever).There were a few downsides to it of course. For one, he died. No matter the circumstances of it, he built up the Lannister cause mostly around his own personal reputation, and didn't do enough for anyone who would proceed him to give them that same atmosphere of danger and respect. He should have remarried and produced more heirs, and definitely taken earlier to grooming someone to take over after him. He gave Tyrion a small shot with limited power in King's Landing, but that only served to play him off against Cersei and set them both up to be subordinate to him when he returned. He wasn't a spry young man, and he still acted like he was immortal.He was an effective guy, there's no doubt about that. Everyone from King's Landing to the Wall hears about his death and goes "This changes -everything-". But that speaks to his flaws as well. He was renown for a mix of ruthlessness, vengeful violence, pragmatism, and outright generosity to his allies. He was a guy who's friend you wanted to be, and who's enemy you wanted to stop being as quickly as possible, but he neglected to create a legacy that could put that attitude behind the Lannister name rather than just his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King.In.Yellow Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 It's my personal opinion that Tywin held the essence of Varys' power riddle. He was probably an efficient commander and administrator, but most of his reputation was based on a perception of power. I. E., he was powerful because he was seen as powerful. He cast a large shadow, just like Tyrion. The Reynes and Tarbecks were part of building up this rep. After the nigh-incompetent Lord Tytos, Tywin had to build himself up as a man to be feared. That meant that Houses Reyne and Tarbeck had to be annihilated. Working as Hand, he probably had the good sense to put right people in the right places (as he did later in his military activities). The same thing happened during the Defiance of Duskendale. He sent Barristan Selmy to do a job he was best suited to. That's one of the two paramount qualities of leadership. Overall, power resided with Tywin because men believed power resided with Tywin. That's one lesson that Cersei and Tyrion have yet to learn and Jamie already understands it. He trains with a mute illiterate just so people can fear him, assume he's just as good as before, although it is on a much less grand scale than Cersei's, Tywin's and Tyrion's politicking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helgar Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Well said, King.In.Yellow. Tywin did what he had to do to ensure that the Lannisters would be respected and feared. After Tytos's disastrous rule as Lord of Crapperly Rock he had to show the world what the Lannisters were made of (which he did... at the end of ASOS, in the privy). I cannot deny that he was a shrewd and ruthless man without deluding myself but I can say that all his efforts to reinforce the legacy of his House were demolished by the fact that he forgot to raise his children properly. What's the point in making a big name of your House if you don't train your children to continue it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Truthfully we never see him doing anything great, everything memorable (Castemere, keeping Aerys in charge) happened in the past. Even RW was work of Roose and Freys.Agreed. In fact, with the exception of the battle he was supposed to win (Roose's feint,) and the battle the Tyrells led (the Blackwater,) I'm not sure Tywin actually won a single battle during the entirety of ASOIAF. In my opinion, everything particularly proficient that Tywin has done has had more to with with being pragmatic and morally bankrupt than it has to do with skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Tywin's overrated as hell. The only reason he looked like he was winning the war when he died was a streak of really lucky break. WEithout the shadow baby, he would've been crushed easily and would've deservedly looked like an idiot for starting a war alone against the whole realm. People keep saying what a political mastermind he is yet Varys and LF trickedhim time and time again and he had no clue.The cult here for this psychopath is kind of disgusting. He wasn't a great person, he was a monster. Murdering him was the best thing Tyrion did by far.Furthermore he would, if anyone could, have raised Tommen to become a good and true king and given the realm peace. Just like he raised his own kids to be good persons and competent rulers who keep the peace, right? Oh, wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Island Bruiser Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Tywin took House Lannister from bankruptcy and mockery to being one of the most powerful and richest houses in Westeros. OK he was defeated in battle by Robb but the biggest defeats House Lannister suffered were whilst someone else was in charge.He equally managed to suppress the Riverlands and the North, placing his men (well to an extent) in charge of them and harnassing the power of Highgarden to his yoke. It falls apart only after he died and let's be honest it's pretty hard to forsee that you imprisoned, dwarf son will escape and appear in front of you of you with a crossbow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Just like he raised his own kids to be good persons and competent rulers who keep the peace, right? Oh, wait...Tywin never raised them to be good persons but to fit as feudal nobility in a feudal world ruled by the nobility. Jaime has shown himself to both pretty competant leader as far as I can tell, not among the best but far from bad. And Cersei was never raised with the intention that she would rule anything at all, likewise with Tyrion. The parts we see with Tywin and Tommen are pretty clear indications to me that Tommen would have grown up to be a fairly competent king. He may not have been Baelor the Blessed but that's not the kind of persons needed to rule feudal kingdoms either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toos Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Tywin took House Lannister from bankruptcy and mockery to being one of the most powerful and richest houses in Westeros. OK he was defeated in battle by Robb but the biggest defeats House Lannister suffered were whilst someone else was in charge.I don't understand why people give Tywin credit for this. Lannisters were always rich, even during Tytos' reign they had enough gold because they lent money to their bannermen. Maybe they weren't super rich but I doubt that they were in bad position regarding money. And Tywin didn't restore Lannister's power in Westerland, it was his castellan because Tywin spend most of his time in KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Tywin never raised them to be good persons but to fit as feudal nobility in a feudal world ruled by the nobility. Jaime has shown himself to both pretty competant leader as far as I can tell, not among the best but far from bad. And Cersei was never raised with the intention that she would rule anything at all, likewise with Tyrion. The parts we see with Tywin and Tommen are pretty clear indications to me that Tommen would have grown up to be a fairly competent king. He may not have been Baelor the Blessed but that's not the kind of persons needed to rule feudal kingdoms either. None of Tywin's children are remotely competent as rulers except Tyrion whom Tyrwin did nothing to teach hm anything except low self worth and how to be a jerk. Jaime is mediocre at best when it comes to politics and governing and the less said about Cersei, the better. I see no reason to think he'd have done better with Tommen. Since Cersei was his heir after Jaime joined the KG (2-3 years before her marriage), second in line before this (he never counted Tyrion), not teaching her anything about ruling was just dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starks Revenge Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Even when Tywin was alive he had been forced to give alot of power to the Tyrells, it would be interesting to see how he dealt with them seeing as he badly needed them to keep the Lannisters in power. I think he would have known about the incest, but he had noting to gain by calling them on it, if he acknowledged it he would lose the throne so he probably did his best to ignore it and keep them well away from eachother.I think his.. i wouldn't call it fear but waryness of Stannis might have forced him to take control of the situation in the north while allowing the Tyrells to spend troops and reasources fighting the new Targ threat, he would want the Tyrells as weak as possible if anything happens. But I think he did more harm than good to the Lannisters overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Island Bruiser Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I don't understand why people give Tywin credit for this. Lannisters were always rich, even during Tytos' reign they had enough gold because they lent money to their bannermen. Maybe they weren't super rich but I doubt that they were in bad position regarding money. And Tywin didn't restore Lannister's power in Westerland, it was his castellan because Tywin spend most of his time in KL.Tytos led the house to be openly mocked and seen as weak. Tywin restored this and more in the space of 1 generation. Say what you like but a man who has the reputation to shit gold must be able to generate money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Tytos led the house to be openly mocked and seen as weak. Tywin restored this and more in the space of 1 generation. Say what you like but a man who has the reputation to shit gold must be able to generate money.He controls lots of gold mines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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