E-Ro Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Yea tywin is nothing special, in fact I would go so far as saying he is not even that good a politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Island Bruiser Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 None of Tywin's children are remotely competent as rulers except Tyrion whom Tyrwin did nothing to teach hm anything except low self worth and how to be a jerk. Jaime is mediocre at best when it comes to politics and governing and the less said about Cersei, the better. I see no reason to think he'd have done better with Tommen.Since Cersei was his heir after Jaime joined the KG (2-3 years before her marriage), second in line before this (he never counted Tyrion), not teaching her anything about ruling was just dumb.Well he hoped to tempt Jamie back (somehow) and hated Tyrion both for the laughter he drew and for 'killing' Joanna. Jamie would probably have made a competant lord, if not a great one. He seems to be well liked, at least amongst the Lannister family and their bannermen, is a decent general, was a great swordsman and you can see from his handling of the tidy up in the Riverlands that he is now a pretty good negotiator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Soprano Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 He's better than most military leaders because of his tenacity and willingness to achieve his goals at any cost. He's also a good politician, who can deal with enemies diplomatically just as well as militarily. But, like any man, he has his flaws, and I think Tywin's biggest flaw was ignorance towards his family, particularly towards Jaime and Cersei. We see how he treats Tyrion, calling him insulting names, blaming him for Joanna's death, and at the same time, he turns a blind eye to pretty much everything Cersei and Jaime do. In conclusion, I'd say that Tywin is far from perfect, but in the end, his qualities as a leader, both on the field of battle and in the noble courts, outweigh his flaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grip Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Tywin certainly isnt perfect, far from it..He is good at giving that impression to others though, he is good at putting on a show. Tywins advantage always seems to have been to play the Lord, IE behave like one/dress like one etc. His actions when looked at more closely reveal that he did infact make many mistakes, just like any other Lord or Lady out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 He controls lots of gold mines...Tytos had those mines, but since he was weak he lent out the gold he mined and got nothing back. You still need a bit of power behind you.As for Tywin, he's not a bad politician, but he does have one infuriating tendency: to cause all discussions about him to devolve into a "Tywin wasn't perfect"/"Tywin sucks" false dichotomy. Bonus points if someone manages to draw an intellectually dishonest correlation between the Red Wedding and his death/ the problems of the Lannisters or mention how crushing the Reynes and Tarbecks was easy, I assume that they have troop numbers and a thorough strategical overview of the situation.Since Cersei was his heir after Jaime joined the KG (2-3 years before her marriage), second in line before this (he never counted Tyrion), not teaching her anything about ruling was just dumb. I keep hearing this. What makes you think that Cersei knows nothing. Cersei understands the nuts and bolts of ruling. She understands the political situation, she is simply insane. You can have all the knowledge in the world, you still make decisions based on your personality. You take a Cersei that has become deeply cynical after a decade of forced marriage and powerlessness and extremely paranoid after a series of unlikely murders and you get a person that is simply using her tools the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Tywin is way overrated:- crushing Reynes and Tarbeck would be as easy as a grown adult beating up two twelve-year-olds- he was Hand during peacetime without any problems to deal with- Defiance of Duskendale, he didn't stop it in it's early tracks, later it was as easy as Klitschko beating up a twelve-year-old- didn't get good marriages for his children and lost his heir without a proper spare- started a blood feud with Dorne that will last generations for something he would have gotten either way- started a war at a likely 1:8 disadvantage attacking the Riverlands- pure dumb luck got Bob killed before he crushed the Lannisters once and for all- LF and Varys got Ned imprisoned and Cersei in control instead of the other way around, which would have doomed the Lannisters once more- got a plot gift by heaven when Stannis besieged Storms End instead of KL- got another plot gift when Stannis killed Renley instead of the other way around- sat on his ass in Harrenhal, losing the War- got plot gift No 1000 when Balon made an idiot out of himself and attacked the North- LF kept the Vale from joining Robb, crushing the Lannisters again- pitted Tyrion and Cersei against each other- through LF and luck, the Tyrells saved the Lannister behind and Tywin took credit for it- got a marriage alliance with the Tyrells and his grandson/king killed for a price- started a blood feuf for centuries with the North and the Riverlands- made enemies out of the Vale, the Faith and everybody concerned with basic decency as well- gave LF, the untrustworthy guy, power over two regions- raised Cersei to be an evil psychopath jeopardizing Lannister future- got Jaime to forsake House Lannister- got Tyrion to shot him in the groin and start a war against House LannisterIn short, from a weak but temporary situation, Tywin led House Lannister to a situation where every single misstep will result in it's extermination, everybody is interested in that misstep and the Lannisters are making do without strength of their own. He caused the downfall of House Lannister inside the next 20 years. No, he is in no way too perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordouche Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Yea tywin is nothing special, in fact I would go so far as saying he is not even that good a politician. He was the most feared man in all of Westeros... Bar none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 He was the most feared man in all of Westeros... Bar none.Being feared isn't the same as being a good politician. Far from it in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Tytos had those mines, but since he was weak he lent out the gold he mined and got nothing back. You still need a bit of power behind you.I know, I was just being a bit sarky. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I keep hearing this. What makes you think that Cersei knows nothing. Cersei understands the nuts and bolts of ruling. She understands the political situation, she is simply insane. You can have all the knowledge in the world, you still make decisions based on your personality. You take a Cersei that has become deeply cynical after a decade of forced marriage and powerlessness and extremely paranoid after a series of unlikely murders and you get a person that is simply using her tools the wrong way. There are plenty of indications that Cersei lacked the knowledge necessary for a competent ruler. For example, she (and Jaime too) didn't know the specifics of the struggle between the Faith and the early Targs and how many problems the Faith resistance caused Maegor the Cruel which lead to the huge blunder of allowing the rearming of the Faith. She has no idea that the Iron Bank's MO is to dethrone monarchs who don't pay their debts to them, something that even Jon Snow knew before he had any dealings with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordouche Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Being feared isn't the same as being a good politician. Far from it in fact.Not like this is a feudal society or anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 If he were really that flawless, he'd've never been killed by his own son while sitting on the shitter. All the strategic brilliance in the world can't make up for that kind of end.How could Tywin have possibly seen that one coming? :) I don't think it effects that he was the most well rounded stragegist in Westeros in his lifetime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 How could Tywin have possibly seen that one coming? :) I don't think it effects that he was the most well rounded stragegist in Westeros in his lifetimeWas dissed by Aerys as Hand, got pwned by Robb on the field and was outplayed by LF, Varys and the QoT in his second stint as Hand, and finally murdered by his dwarf son.If you call that "well rounded" strategy...Not like this is a feudal society or anything...?Only thing constant fear earns a prince is hatred. This was true in the city states of Greece BC, Italian cities in the Rennaissance, and its true even today.As soons as the oppressed subjects smell weakness they begin to plot against the tyrant. Its far better to be respected then to be feared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed Lannister Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 perfect denotes that he has no flaws but by far he was the most ideal lord,hand,or even king with the diverse pool of different characters in the world of westeros.he is an effective hand,lord,warden,father and commander in times of peace and war. give him a task and he will carry out it to completion.(governance,warfare,finace,diplomacy)he only scores weaker points when managing the large lannister family mainly driven by his love for the lannister family in it's wholesome as a clan (sired children,siblings,cousins)people chide him for tyrion but he did remarkably raising a dwarf raising and elevating him up to the standards the lannisters hold themselves to, despite the ridicules and slights directed to him coz of having a dwarf as a son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 perfect denotes that he has no flaws but by far he was the most ideal lord,hand,or even king with the diverse pool of different characters in the world of westeros.he is an effective hand,lord,warden,father and commander in times of peace and war. give him a task and he will carry out it to completion.(governance,warfare,finace,diplomacy)he only scores weaker points when managing the large lannister family mainly driven by his love for the lannister family in it's wholesome as a clan (sired children,siblings,cousins)people chide him for tyrion but he did remarkably raising a dwarf raising and elevating him up to the standards the lannisters hold themselves to, despite the ridicules and slights directed to him coz of having a dwarf as a son.I am compelled to ask, is this a joke? Because you lost right around the time you called him an effective father and my confusion only grow when you claimed he had a great love for the Lannister family and that he did really well raising Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Was dissed by Aerys as Hand, got pwned by Robb on the field and was outplayed by LF, Varys and the QoT in his second stint as Hand, and finally murdered by his dwarf son.If you call that "well rounded" strategy...?Only thing constant fear earns a prince is hatred. This was true in the city states of Greece BC, Italian cities in the Rennaissance, and its true even today.As soons as the oppressed subjects smell weakness they begin to plot against the tyrant. Its far better to be respected then to be feared.I wouldnt say he got pawd by rob. Rob made a smart decison and Tywin underestimated him and over estimated Jamie. Then he quickly adapted. I think this still shows a good tactician. You can't win every battle but how do you react to setbacks.Arys dissing him was Arys making a poor tactical move that cost him everything....and Tywin won that war.What i mean by well rounded stategy was that he was good at both the political end, the military end, and the finaical end of politics. He knew how to hedge his bets and cover his bases and use the right tool for the job. I don't think he was infalible....but he general made the right decision with the information he had available. Like a goalie...you can't stop every puck...but you can put yourself in a good position to play the odds. This was Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I am compelled to ask, is this a joke? Because you lost right around the time you called him an effective father and my confusion only grow when you claimed he had a great love for the Lannister family and that he did really well raising Tyrion.It is a joke. It has to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 It is a joke. It has to be.I want it be a joke but tone and context sometimes doesn't get through in a written format. I can not, in any way, wrap my head around the idea of Tywin being a good father to Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 It is a joke. It has to be. If it's, it's a pretty elaborate one. Look at his other posts, most of them are in the same vein, always defending and praising Tywin and the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I want it be a joke but tone and context sometimes doesn't get through in a written format. I can not, in any way, wrap my head around the idea of Tywin being a good father to Tyrion.I will say this. Aside from being a great and well rounded leader....Tywin like most powerful figures had failings as a father....i do believe he thought he was doing the best things for his children. Remember he had a father he felt raised him and treated his vassals with far to much leniency which almost was the downfall of the house. He wishes he was given the firm hand that he is trying to give his children. I think it is obvious he has some serious issues with Tyrion that he can't get past...but i believe in his mind he is doing right by what they need...not by what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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