Ravenhair Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Also, a number of people have noted references to T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland. I'm fascinated by the comparison. Here's my post, again from the Syrio Forel, What's in a Name thread:Here is a part of T. S. Eliot's, the Wasteland. I especially liked the "do you know nothing?" lines as references for Ygritte's telling Jon Snow, "You know nothing, Jon Snow.II. A Game of ChessThe Chair she sat in, like a burnished throne,Glowed on the marble, where the glassHeld up by standards wrought with fruited vinesFrom which a golden Cupidon peeped out 80(Another hid his eyes behind his wing)Doubled the flames of sevenbranched candelabraReflecting light upon the table asThe glitter of her jewels rose to meet it,From satin cases poured in rich profusion; 85In vials of ivory and coloured glassUnstoppered, lurked her strange synthetic perfumes,Unguent, powdered, or liquid—troubled, confusedAnd drowned the sense in odours; stirred by the airThat freshened from the window, these ascended 90In fattening the prolonged candle-flames,Flung their smoke into the laquearia,Stirring the pattern on the coffered ceiling.Huge sea-wood fed with copperBurned green and orange, framed by the coloured stone, 95In which sad light a carvèd dolphin swam.Above the antique mantel was displayedAs though a window gave upon the sylvan sceneThe change of Philomel, by the barbarous kingSo rudely forced; yet there the nightingale 100Filled all the desert with inviolable voiceAnd still she cried, and still the world pursues,“Jug Jug” to dirty ears.And other withered stumps of timeWere told upon the walls; staring forms 105Leaned out, leaning, hushing the room enclosed.Footsteps shuffled on the stair,Under the firelight, under the brush, her hairSpread out in fiery pointsGlowed into words, then would be savagely still. 110“My nerves are bad to-night. Yes, bad. Stay with me.Speak to me. Why do you never speak? Speak.What are you thinking of? What thinking? What?I never know what you are thinking. Think.”I think we are in rats’ alley 115Where the dead men lost their bones.“What is that noise?”The wind under the door.“What is that noise now? What is the wind doing?”Nothing again nothing. 120“DoYou know nothing? Do you see nothing? Do you rememberNothing?”I rememberThose are pearls that were his eyes. 125“Are you alive, or not? Is there nothing in your head?”ButO O O O that Shakespeherian Rag—It’s so elegantSo intelligent 130“What shall I do now? What shall I do?I shall rush out as I am, and walk the streetWith my hair down, so. What shall we do to-morrow?What shall we ever do?”The hot water at ten. 135And if it rains, a closed car at four.And we shall play a game of chess,Pressing lidless eyes and waiting for a knock upon the door.When Lil’s husband got demobbed, I said,I didn’t mince my words, I said to her myself, 140HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIMENow Albert’s coming back, make yourself a bit smart.He’ll want to know what you done with that money he gave youTo get yourself some teeth. He did, I was there.You have them all out, Lil, and get a nice set, 145He said, I swear, I can’t bear to look at you.And no more can’t I, I said, and think of poor Albert,He’s been in the army four years, he wants a good time,And if you don’t give it him, there’s others will, I said.Oh is there, she said. Something o’ that, I said. 150Then I’ll know who to thank, she said, and give me a straight look.HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIMEIf you don’t like it you can get on with it, I said,Others can pick and choose if you can’t.But if Albert makes off, it won’t be for lack of telling. 155You ought to be ashamed, I said, to look so antique.(And her only thirty-one.)I can’t help it, she said, pulling a long face,It’s them pills I took, to bring it off, she said.(She’s had five already, and nearly died of young George.) 160The chemist said it would be alright, but I’ve never been the same.You are a proper fool, I said.Well, if Albert won’t leave you alone, there it is, I said,What you get married for if you don’t want children?HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME 165Well, that Sunday Albert was home, they had a hot gammon,And they asked me in to dinner, to get the beauty of it hot—HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIMEHURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIMEGoonight Bill. Goonight Lou. Goonight May. Goonight. 170Ta ta. Goonight. Goonight.Good night, ladies, good night, sweet ladies, good night, good night. dark sister 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenhair Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Serie, on 30 March 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:has anyone thought of the greyjoys as Grey Joy, meaning they're no good or no fun?Ravenhair:Yes, or the idea that their joy is some how bad or wrong. Somewhat like these 3 characters from Edmund Spenser's poem, The Faerie Queene:Sansfoy, Sansjoy and Sansloy (names from the old French meaning "Faithless", "Joyless" and "Lawless"), three saracen knights who fight Redcrosse in Book One.I could swear that there is Aegon reference in the Faerie Queene, but I cannot find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenhair Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Also, a number of people have noted references to T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland. I'm fascinated by the comparison. Here's my post, again from the Syrio Forel, What's in a Name thread:Here is a part of T. S. Eliot's, the Wasteland. I especially liked the "do you know nothing?" lines as references for Ygritte's telling Jon Snow, "You know nothing, Jon Snow.II. A Game of ChessThe Chair she sat in, like a burnished throne,Glowed on the marble, where the glassHeld up by standards wrought with fruited vinesFrom which a golden Cupidon peeped out 80(Another hid his eyes behind his wing)Doubled the flames of sevenbranched candelabraReflecting light upon the table asThe glitter of her jewels rose to meet it,From satin cases poured in rich profusion; 85In vials of ivory and coloured glassUnstoppered, lurked her strange synthetic perfumes,Unguent, powdered, or liquid—troubled, confusedAnd drowned the sense in odours; stirred by the airThat freshened from the window, these ascended 90In fattening the prolonged candle-flames,Flung their smoke into the laquearia,Stirring the pattern on the coffered ceiling.Huge sea-wood fed with copperBurned green and orange, framed by the coloured stone, 95In which sad light a carvèd dolphin swam.Above the antique mantel was displayedAs though a window gave upon the sylvan sceneThe change of Philomel, by the barbarous kingSo rudely forced; yet there the nightingale 100Filled all the desert with inviolable voiceAnd still she cried, and still the world pursues,“Jug Jug” to dirty ears.And other withered stumps of timeWere told upon the walls; staring forms 105Leaned out, leaning, hushing the room enclosed.Footsteps shuffled on the stair,Under the firelight, under the brush, her hairSpread out in fiery pointsGlowed into words, then would be savagely still. 110“My nerves are bad to-night. Yes, bad. Stay with me.Speak to me. Why do you never speak? Speak.What are you thinking of? What thinking? What?I never know what you are thinking. Think.”I think we are in rats’ alley 115Where the dead men lost their bones.“What is that noise?”The wind under the door.“What is that noise now? What is the wind doing?”Nothing again nothing. 120“DoYou know nothing? Do you see nothing? Do you rememberNothing?”I rememberThose are pearls that were his eyes. 125“Are you alive, or not? Is there nothing in your head?”ButO O O O that Shakespeherian Rag—It’s so elegantSo intelligent 130“What shall I do now? What shall I do?I shall rush out as I am, and walk the streetWith my hair down, so. What shall we do to-morrow?What shall we ever do?”The hot water at ten. 135And if it rains, a closed car at four.And we shall play a game of chess,Pressing lidless eyes and waiting for a knock upon the door.When Lil’s husband got demobbed, I said,I didn’t mince my words, I said to her myself, 140HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIMENow Albert’s coming back, make yourself a bit smart.He’ll want to know what you done with that money he gave youTo get yourself some teeth. He did, I was there.You have them all out, Lil, and get a nice set, 145He said, I swear, I can’t bear to look at you.And no more can’t I, I said, and think of poor Albert,He’s been in the army four years, he wants a good time,And if you don’t give it him, there’s others will, I said.Oh is there, she said. Something o’ that, I said. 150Then I’ll know who to thank, she said, and give me a straight look.HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIMEIf you don’t like it you can get on with it, I said,Others can pick and choose if you can’t.But if Albert makes off, it won’t be for lack of telling. 155You ought to be ashamed, I said, to look so antique.(And her only thirty-one.)I can’t help it, she said, pulling a long face,It’s them pills I took, to bring it off, she said.(She’s had five already, and nearly died of young George.) 160The chemist said it would be alright, but I’ve never been the same.You are a proper fool, I said.Well, if Albert won’t leave you alone, there it is, I said,What you get married for if you don’t want children?HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME 165Well, that Sunday Albert was home, they had a hot gammon,And they asked me in to dinner, to get the beauty of it hot—HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIMEHURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIMEGoonight Bill. Goonight Lou. Goonight May. Goonight. 170Ta ta. Goonight. Goonight.Good night, ladies, good night, sweet ladies, good night, good night.Here's T.S. Eliot's own notes on The Wasteland where he indicates a reliance on the Holy Grail legend:Not only the title, but the plan and a good deal of the incidental symbolism of the poem were suggested by Miss Jessie L. Weston’s book on the Grail legend: From Ritual to Romance (Macmillan). Indeed, so deeply am I indebted, Miss Weston’s book will elucidate the difficulties of the poem much better than my notes can do; and I recommend it (apart from the great interest of the book itself) to any who think such elucidation of the poem worth the trouble. To another work of anthropology I am indebted in general, one which has influenced our generation profoundly; I mean The Golden Bough; I have used especially the two volumes Attis Adonis Osiris. Anyone who is acquainted with these works will immediately recognise in the poem certain references to vegetation ceremonies. 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Ravenhair Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Yes, I noticed this as well. Here's my quote from the Syrio Forel What's In a Name thread?quote name='Ravenhair' timestamp='1333210991' post='3093257']The Dan Haggard interviews Are good. I especially like his comparison of Lancelot and Jaime. I'm an attorney now, but t majored in English. You could use these books to write a thesis or paper that would be a teacher's wet dream. Just think Cersei/Jaime and the Jacob/ Esau comparison from the bible. The comparison of Bran's story to Bran the Blessed from a Welsh story, "Mari somethi ng" and to the Fisher King legend. A comparison of Cersei to Circe, and as some poster noted, Cersei did end up killing Robert with a Boar. Jaime possibly being a reference to the French J'aime--I love. If you really want to go take this far, do some research on Edmund Spenser's poem, The Faerie Queene, and even T. s. Eliot's the Wasteland.The Welsh stories I could not remember are the Mabinogionand I believe Bran the Blessed suffered a Pierced thigh or foot injury in them. I haven't read through all the reference and homage posts, but I'm relatively certain this has been noted before. So sorry for the repetition; I just thought it was cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62077-brans-weirwood-visions/@ Ravenhair We talked about the Grail King connection on this thread about Bran's weirwood visions. There are references in ASOIAF about holding the leader accountable for a bad harvest - in Pentos they elect the Prince for life but if the crops fail they execute him. This led to discussion about the sacrifice of the Winter King to end a particularly bad winter, a practice in some primitive societies; this seemed a dark omen about why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Link posted above. If you can wade through all the business about eye color that is intermingled, it was an interesting discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenhair Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62077-brans-weirwood-visions/@ Ravenhair We talked about the Grail King connection on this thread about Bran's weirwood visions. There are references in ASOIAF about holding the leader accountable for a bad harvest - in Pentos they elect the Prince for life but if the crops fail they execute him. This led to discussion about the sacrifice of the Winter King to end a particularly bad winter, a practice in some primitive societies; this seemed a dark omen about why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Link posted above. If Gyou can wade through all the business about eye color that is intermingled, it was an interesting discussion.I saw that, but when someone posted their fear that Jon would have to make the ultimate sacrifice to end the Long Winter, I thought it might be too possible an ending, and it was very depressing. I suppose I must go back and retread the thread, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I saw that, but when someone posted their fear that Jon would have to make the ultimate sacrifice to end the Long Winter, I thought it might be too possible an ending, and it was very depressing. I suppose I must go back and retread the thread, though.I thought Bran might make the sacrifice in Jon's stead. Either one is dreadful. Ravenhair 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I do apologise if this has already been brought up (I read the first 15 pages or so and didn't see it, I'll read the rest later), but I think there are strong parallels between the Glencoe Massacre and the Red Wedding.To give some background, the Glencoe Massacre happened after the first Jacobite rebellion. To cut a long story very short, there were religious issues and the kingdom of Scotland (i.e. the north of Britain) considered seceding from the joint kingdoms of England (and Wales) and Ireland and proclaiming a separate king, as was the case in the past. This did not happen, but there were those who tried to do it in a rebellion. When this was crushed, those responsible were offered pardons should they swear loyalty by a certain date. The Glencoe chief was three days late in swearing loyalty, though no issue was made at the time because there was bad weather and whatnot. Anyway, a plot was made regardless to kill the MacDonalds of Glencoe regardless and was signed by the king himself. What happened was that soldiers stayed at Glencoe in traditional highland custom, and then after two weeks massacred those who kept them as guests.Parallels:-The massacre was in violation of guest rights in Scotland. Admittedly it was reversed - the guests killing the hosts - but the idea is there. Indeed, this idea of hospitality ran deep enough that there was a charge of "murder in trust" for such occasions, so deeply ingrained was the idea of guest rights. It was just as unthinkable to do what the Campbells did to the MacDonalds as it was for the Freys to kill their guests. This is still remembered in Scotland today as something utterly abhorrent and reprehensible. The North remembers. ;]-The massacre was related to the northern part of the realms wishing to become independent again.-The massacre was related to issues with swearing an oath to the king.-The massacre had Scots killing Scots at the behest of a king to the south.-There was even a marriage relation between the man in charge of the massacre and the chief of Glencoe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenhair Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 All of the references and homages everyone has noted are fascinating, even if we may be overreaching. Last night, I was looking up something on Arthurian legends and noted that there was a St. Carranock (Welsh Carranog) who has one of the only two noted encounters with an "Arthur," who it has been argued could be an actual historical Arthur. Anyway, this St. Carranog (crannog anyone) was known for having a moving or portable altar (Greywater Watch moves also). Just thought it was interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterborn Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 I doubt this is a direct reference, but the "demon mask" tattoo that Jorah receives in ADWD as punishment for being a rebellious slave reminds me of Gully Foyle's mask tattoo in The Stars My Destination, as does his unchecked rage and his single-minded quest to track down his silver-haired paramour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch-MaesterPhilip Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 The Watch reminds me less of the Knight's Templar (Warrior's Sons) and more like the French Foreign Legion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corm Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I don't know if this actually counts but Valyria seems just like Rome and the Dothraki seem like the Germanic tribes that took over afterwards (On horseback they came down from the mountains, just like the Huns from Mongolia) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloocanary Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Neurosis, I think you're thinking of Sir William Marshall. Ser Arthur Dayne might owe something to him. Someone suggested that Margaery's situation at the end of FFC resembles Anne Boleyn's. Anne was accused of witchcraft, incest with her brother George (whose wife gave evidence against them), and adultery with one of her musicians (Mark Smeaton) and four other male courtiers. Cersei is suspicious of a connection between Margaery and a male musician, and while I haven't seen any reason to think the Tyrell siblings are incestuous, they are quite close. Margaery has been examined and found not to be a virgin--not the same as Anne's problem, but it could lead to trouble.I ran across this from several years ago and the Margaery/Anne Boleyn thing suck out very strongly in my mind as well when I was reading about Cersei's plans to bring her down. Cersei's complaint of Tyrells everywhere (in multiple positions of power) is very reminiscent of the Boleyns being instilled throughout the court once Anne married Henry. Margaery's welcomed as a courtly, joyous breath of fresh air by both the common people and the court (very much like Anne Boleyn) while the king's former consort is put aside in disgrace. Margaery's accused of sleeping with multiple men, including a singer (Marillion/Smeaton) and the Queen considers accusing her of incest as well (as Anne was with George, who, interestingly enough has been portrayed as bisexual/gay). At any rate, Natalie Dormer should have absolutely zero difficulty playing Margaery after her run as Anne Boleyn the Tudors! dark sister 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaz Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Wun Wun saying "Eat now?" made me think of Larry Kubiac http://seventeenprecisely.tumblr.com/post/5647969662 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Theon is similar to Gollum. Credit idea to The Black Wolf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch-MaesterPhilip Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Inigo Montoya vs. The Six Fingered Man equals Oberyn Martell vs. The Mountain Ravenhair 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) Inigo Montoya vs. The Six Fingered Man equals Oberyn Martell vs. The MountainHello. My name is Inigo Montoya Oberyn Martell. You killed my father sister. Prepare to die become a semi-dead, possibly headless, monstrous science experiment. Edited April 20, 2012 by Jem Ravenhair, rmholt and dark sister 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch-MaesterPhilip Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya Oberyn Martell. You killed my father sister. Prepare to die become a semi-dead, possibly headless, monstrous science experiment.The way he repeats it over again reminds me of how the Red Viper repeats "Her Name was Elia of Dorne!" Ravenhair 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) The glass candles are like the palantir in LOTR. Credit to wyman's cook.And Craster giving his sons to the Others, substituting sheep if no sons are available, is an evil perversion of Abraham, Isaac, and the new covenant. Edited April 20, 2012 by Teal'c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandorLives Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) Inigo Montoya vs. The Six Fingered Man equals Oberyn Martell vs. The MountainThe Mountain showed won, and The Six Fingered Man blatantly lost the fight.I suppose that's accurate in that both are revenge epics. Edited April 22, 2012 by MVPacMan23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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