Robert vs Jamie: A Duel to the Death

[Esa1996]

The Hound isn't anywhere close to Jaime skill wise. The guy uses pure size, strength and aggression when he fights. The only times we've seen him fight one on one, he's been pretty sloppy skill wise. (Beric and Polliver). I actually think he has less of a chance than Robert because he doesn't have the advantage of the Warhammer. Sword for sword Jaime takes him 80/100 times.

When fighting against Beric he was afraid of Beric's flaming sword, and the fire pit. He hadn't been eating too well either for the last few days.

The other fight was against Polliver and Tickler at the same time while being totally drunk. He killed the other one and left the other for Arya.

Also, he's always been dreaming of killing Gregor which takes away his advantages of strength and size so he has had to train skill.

In AFfC Cersei asks Jaime to do something and when Jaime doesn't want to do it she says "I'm not asking you to beat the Hound in single combat"

Jaime himself says that the Hound is extremely quick with his sword.

[James Arryn]

Jaime looked up to him but his true hero was Arthur Dayne. He said so himself.

They refer to him as exellent when talking about the Joust. The only times they talk about his abilities, they mention his many victories in tourneys over the likes of Brandon Stark, Barristan, Dayne, etc.

2 points.

1) As weird as this seems to us, in medieval ( and by reflection,both implied and overt Westerosi) minds, the joust was far more important and far more telling about a man's martial skills than a melee or sword fight. So it would be natural to talk about this aspect more, first, and with more significance. And it's not just

some abstract...if and when knights met in real combat, it would usually be on horseback.

2) I seem to recall him being talked about as a warrior on a few occasions, with no specification applied. But this is a vague impression. I only recall specifically that it was always excellence. The only caveats I ever saw applied were actually contrary to the notion of a tourney knight...his enthusiasm is said to be less than his skill, and he didn't engage in many. But when he did, he was exceptionally successful.

I think part of the issue is it seems unlikely that he could be do elite at so many things, but that's the guy as written...and his being a prodigy at a level that makes him excellent isn't any less realistic than his being a prodigy that makes him very good.

Edit: re Dayne. Agreed. But IMO at goes further to my point. Jaime's hero is the all time greatest fighter. His values are about fighting, period. And he admires Rhaegar.

[Artos Stark]

When fighting against Beric he was afraid of Beric's flaming sword, and the fire pit. He hadn't been eating too well either for the last few days.

The other fight was against Polliver and Tickler at the same time while being totally drunk. He killed the other one and left the other for Arya.

Also, he's always been dreaming of killing Gregor which takes away his advantages of strength and size so he has had to train skill.

In AFfC Cersei asks Jaime to do something and when Jaime doesn't want to do it she says "I'm not asking you to beat the Hound in single combat"

Jaime himself says that the Hound is extremely quick with his sword.

So any average Joe with a flaming sword could be a match for this guy?

IIRC Polliver took on the Hound by himself while the Tickler looked for an open spot to stab him, Polliver was driving him back and the Hound kicked a bench at Polliver making him lose his balance and giving the Hound a chance for the kill shot. I'll have to do a re-read to confirm though.

Cersei asks him to fight Tyrion in single combat, Jaime responds that he couldn't fight with one hand and that is when Cersei makes the Hound comment. People say that the Hound is quick for his size, not that he's as quick as Jaime. None of this points to his skill being on par with Jaime's.

[Artos Stark]

2 points.

1) As weird as this seems to us, in medieval ( and by reflection,both implied and overt Westerosi) minds, the joust was far more important and far more telling about a man's martial skills than a melee or sword fight. So it would be natural to talk about this aspect more, first, and with more significance. And it's not just

some abstract...if and when knights met in real combat, it would usually be on horseback.

2) I seem to recall him being talked about as a warrior on a few occasions, with no specification applied. But this is a vague impression. I only recall specifically that it was always excellence. The only caveats I ever saw applied were actually contrary to the notion of a tourney knight...his enthusiasm is said to be less than his skill, and he didn't engage in many. But when he did, he was exceptionally successful.

I think part of the issue is it seems unlikely that he could be do elite at so many things, but that's the guy as written...and his being a prodigy at a level that makes him excellent isn't any less realistic than his being a prodigy that makes him very good.

Edit: re Dayne. Agreed. But IMO at goes further to my point. Jaime's hero is the all time greatest fighter. His values are about fighting, period. And he admires Rhaegar.

It would be natural for him them to talk about the Joust before the sword. But they never talked about him with the sword at all. I can't recall anyone ever mentioning him being great or even good with a sword, I can't recall any single combat that he had and only one battle in which he was slain. Everything we hear about him is joust joust joust and the one time they speak of him drawing his sword, he is slain.

[J. Stargaryen]

2 points.

1) As weird as this seems to us, in medieval ( and by reflection,both implied and overt Westerosi) minds, the joust was far more important and far more telling about a man's martial skills than a melee or sword fight. So it would be natural to talk about this aspect more, first, and with more significance. And it's not just some abstract...if and when knights met in real combat, it wold usually be on horseback.

2) I seem to recall him being talked about as a warrior on a few occasions, with no specification applied. But this is a vague impression. I only recall specifically that it was always excellence. The only caveats I ever saw applied were actually contrary to the notion of a tourney knight...his enthusiasm is said to be less than his skill, and he didn't engage in many. But when he did, he was exceptionally successful.

I think part of the issue is it seems unlikely that he could be do elite at so many things, but that's the guy as written...and his being a prodigy at a level that makes him excellent isn't any less realistic than his being a prodigy that makes him very good.

Bobby Fischer once objected to being called a 'chess genius', insisting that he was an all around genius unlike Kasparov, for example. Ironic, considering that Kasparov has displayed a level of diversity in his life that Fischer never seemed capable of. In this vein, perhaps we can think of Rhaegar as an all around 'genius', while Jaime was only a 'genius' with his sword.

[James Arryn]

It would be natural for him them to talk about the Joust before the sword. But they never talked about him with the sword at all. I can't recall anyone ever mentioning him being great or even good with a sword, I can't recall any single combat that he had and only one battle in which he was slain. Everything we hear about him is joust joust joust and the one time they speak of him drawing his sword, he is slain.

He is slain after an apparently epic battle with one of the greatest warriors of his age, who has an advantage of motivation and weaponry. His one battle is the stuff of legend.

That plus the fact that no one makes a distinction about him not excelling at swordplay make me very hesitant to ascribe limitations in that regard.

[James Arryn]

Bobby Fischer once objected to be called a 'chess genius', insisting that he was an all around genius unlike Kasparov, for example. Ironic, considering that Kasparov has displayed a level of diversity in his life that Fischer never seemed capable of. In this vein, perhaps we can think of Rhaegar as an all around 'genius', while Jaime was only a 'genius' with his sword.

Excellent analogy.

And also raises another aspect...like in chess, or boxing, or tennis baseball or w/e, styles often make the fight. Tyson was by all accounts a better boxer than Douglas, but Douglas was built to beat Tyson.

Some people just have your number, and better doesn't enter into it. The 49ers are by most objective criteria on a different plane than the Rams, but the Rams just match up so well that it was almost a 2 game tie.

Again, love the line of thinking.

[Esa1996]

So any average Joe with a flaming sword could be a match for this guy?

IIRC Polliver took on the Hound by himself while the Tickler looked for an open spot to stab him, Polliver was driving him back and the Hound kicked a bench at Polliver making him lose his balance and giving the Hound a chance for the kill shot. I'll have to do a re-read to confirm though.

Cersei asks him to fight Tyrion in single combat, Jaime responds that he couldn't fight with one hand and that is when Cersei makes the Hound comment. People say that the Hound is quick for his size, not that he's as quick as Jaime. None of this points to his skill being on par with Jaime's.

I wouldn't call Beric an average Joe. He's better than average although he's not on the 1st tier (Jaime, Sandor) or the 2nd (Gregor, Garlan) but the 3rd (Bronn, Brienne)

[Brienne Of Bombay]

Jaime. He is quicker and more naturally skilled. Even Ser Barristan mentions his skill despite of despising Jaime.

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

Ah the what if fight where the world decides the fate by using other battles for example.

Robert was a very skilled fighter, and this is all fallacy about swords. I mean Robert has used his warhammer all through the Rebellion and at Greyjoys Uprising meaning he has survived battle after battle using just his hammer. I think we are giving Robert too little credit and Jamie too much.

If both men are in plate armor, Jamie using his sword and Robert using his warhammer, both in their prime the edge goes to Robert.

What we've had described about the warhammer it is very heavy, yes Ned might have been exaggerating about lifting it but he may have been speaking more of wielding it. And without much evidence we'll go with 5-6 feet, alittle bit longer than your average sword.

Now as we have seen not many people have anything but swords, so we can assume that all of his battles Robert fought sword users with his hammer and didn't seem to get injured once. So he is very good with it and a renowned fighter.

Now surely Rhaeger wasn't the best but he certainly was far from the worse and while Jamie is good can we gurantee Jamie was the best sword fighter either? No, we have seen Jamie only fight Brienne really and Payne with his missing hand. Against Brienne they were about even and we can say Jamie was holding back but Brienne is probably roughly of size of Robert in his youth and her strength was hard for him to deal with if I remember correctly.

From the info page and George himself: Brienne is well over six feet tall, but not close to seven, no. Just off the top of my head, I would say Brienne is taller than Renly and Jaime and significantly heavier than either, but nowhere near the size of Gregor Clegane, who is the true giant in the series. Shorter than Hodor and the Greatjon, maybe a bit shorter than the Hound, maybe roughly the same height as Robert.[1]

Now a warhammer is a great weapon against plate, it is not made to pierce, it is ment to demolish, dent and destory the nice and soft parts underneath. While Jamie is trying to get at the weak points of Roberts armor all Robert would have to do is hit an arm, a leg, his chest, head, even a glancing blow would stagger him if we assume the head weighed 25-30 lbs to give credit to its weight.

A warhammer also gives as much reach if not more than a sword meaning to even stab at Robert, Jamie would have to get close and well within range of the hammer which Robert could swing quite a bit if his battles give any regards to his endurance. He wasn't nearly as big as Gregor and even then it seemed that large man only began to tire after a few stabs from that spear got in his armor and we have to remember the spear gave Oberyn the necessary reach.

One on one, sword vs hammer plate vs plate where both men in their prime and both famous warriors; Robert would probably come out the victor and I say probably only because both sides have a good chance. But all it would take is a glancing blow from the hammer to give Robert his in to hit again. Jamie is quick but he would get just as tired dodging as Robert would swinging, he couldn't risk taking a blow and to be honest couldn't block as much either, a weight like that hitting a sword blade would just as likely shatter his forearm as it would the sword itself.

If Jamie could bleed Robert like all the other fast vs slow(big) fights we've seen then yes he'd have a really good chance but all Robert needs to win is one or two blows and Jamie would be injured or staggered and once a rib or two is broken or a wrist it would be quick work for Robert to cave his skull in.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

it seems like the books describe rhaegar and jaime as being equal in skill in combat.

The stuff about Rhaegar being an amazing fighter mostly comes from Dany, and Targaryens are known to inflate their own accomplishments. No doubt Rhaegar was skilled, but I doubt he was on the level of Jaime Lannister.

That said I think Robert could definitely at least give Jaime a run for his men, though overall I'm leaning towards Jaime coming out on top just because of his precision and greater level of speed and agility as opposed to Robert. That's not to say Robert couldn't put a serious dent on him if nothing else though.

[James Arryn]

The stuff about Rhaegar being an amazing fighter mostly comes from Dany, and Targaryens are known to inflate their own accomplishments. No doubt Rhaegar was skilled, but I doubt he was on the level of Jaime Lannister.

I don't think any of it comes from Dany. Some of it is said to Dany in response to query. And that response is measured, careful, and still entirely praise.

Again, in that no distinction about sword vs. lance was made, we might be free to make any assumption, but IMO any qualifier other than excellence in whatever it was that has been assessed is not based on the text.

Every observation about his fighting skills has been that he was exceptional.

[J. Stargaryen]

Excellent analogy.

And also raises another aspect...like in chess, or boxing, or tennis baseball or w/e, styles often make the fight. Tyson was by all accounts a better boxer than Douglas, but Douglas was built to beat Tyson.

Some people just have your number, and better doesn't enter into it. The 49ers are by most objective criteria on a different plane than the Rams, but the Rams just match up so well that it was almost a 2 game tie.

Again, love the line of thinking.

And both lost to my mighty Vikings(!), the Ironborn of the NFL. :)

Btw, thanks.

[James Arryn]

And both lost to my mighty Vikings(!), the Ironborn of the NFL. :)

Btw, thanks.

lol, that hurt.

No offence, but that game...unlike the Giants or Seachickens ass whooping, or even the Rams games, that one felt entirely like a loss of our own creation. it felt like we had control of the game from the beginning. but just kept shooting ourselves in the foot. That said, as a running back myself, and a Noles fan, I like your team, and greatly appreciate your beating G.B.

[J. Stargaryen]

I don't think any of it comes from Dany. Some of it is said to Dany in response to query. And that response is measured, careful, and still entirely praise.

Again, in that no distinction about sword vs. lance was made, we might be free to make any assumption, but IMO any qualifier other than excellence in whatever it was that has been assessed is not based on the text.

Every observation about his fighting skills has been that he was exceptional.

I think we all agree that Rhaegar was 'excellent' with a sword, but there are different levels of excellence. For whatever reason, Jaime has acquired a greater reputation as a swordsman than Rhaegar had, and I think that shouldn't be ignored here. There is little in the way of proof to be found in this sort of hypothetical. After all, how do we know that Robert didn't defy the odds when he slew Rhaegar? We don't. But Robert defeated Rhaegar in combat, so we use that as a proxy for their martial skill the same way GRRM uses jousting. It's imprecise, but fair.

[J. Stargaryen]

lol, that hurt.

No offence, but that game...unlike the Giants or Seachickens ass whooping, or even the Rams games, that one felt entirely like a loss of our own creation. it felt like we had control of the game from the beginning. but just kept shooting ourselves in the foot. That said, as a running back myself, and a Noles fan, I like your team, and greatly appreciate your beating G.B.

FSU is my favorite college team, and Peter Warrick is my favorite player in college football history. I forgive everything else you said. :lol:

[James Arryn]

I think we all agree that Rhaegar was 'excellent' with a sword, but there are different levels of excellence. For whatever reason, Jaime has acquired a greater reputation as a swordsman than Rhaegar had, and I think that shouldn't be ignored here. There is little in the way of proof to be found in this sort of hypothetical. After all, how do we know that Robert didn't defy the odds when he slew Rhaegar? We don't. But Robert defeated Rhaegar in combat, so we use that as a proxy for their martial skill the same way GRRM uses jousting. It's imprecise, but fair.

Oh, I agree. I think Jaime has been described as best enough that we can give him the benefit of the doubt, even though it's still academically uncertain.

I meant more along the lines of Robert vs. Rhaegar...I think Robert had advantages that also apply this fight with Jaime, and that fight seemed to be pretty even, so I am reluctant re:judgment of Robert > Rhaegar and/or the idea that Rhaegar is just 'good.'

I would bet on Jaime before I would bet on Rhaegar, but I think he still faces an uphill battle against Robert in this specific head to head because it plays so clearly to RBs advantages.

I think I take Jaime and Rhaegar in general in war, or on horseback, or in 'undetermined', and I take JIme. s. Rhaegar probably everywhere and almost certainly anywhere but on horseback...but on foot, sword vs. warhammer, I just think that's Robert's home field, if you get me.

[James Arryn]

Serious problems with formatting on this tablet.

Anyways, I think I go:

In general warfare/versatile opponents/setting,

1) Jaime

2) Rhaegar

3) Robert

On horseback exclusively, either tourney or isolated combat

1/2) Jaime/Rhaegar undetermined.

3) by a long shot, Robert.

On foot, variable setting, equal weapons (ie swords all but somehow assuming Robert is equally trained in swordplay, which I think probable)

1) Jamie

2/3) Robert/Rhaegar undetermined

On foot, isolated, each with with seeming weapon of choice.

1) Robert

2) Jamie

3) Rhaegar

[Wankerfell]

Jaime may have been the finest swordsman in the realm in his prime, but Robert carried a warhammer, so the question simply becomes who is the better fighter. I think, without any question, the answer is Robert. We can only really go by renown, and you have to tip your cap to Baratheon on that front. He was widely considered to be a great warrior.

[willy york]

The stuff about Rhaegar being an amazing fighter mostly comes from Dany, and Targaryens are known to inflate their own accomplishments. No doubt Rhaegar was skilled, but I doubt he was on the level of Jaime Lannister.

That said I think Robert could definitely at least give Jaime a run for his men, though overall I'm leaning towards Jaime coming out on top just because of his precision and greater level of speed and agility as opposed to Robert. That's not to say Robert couldn't put a serious dent on him if nothing else though.

it comes from the fact that he beat both barristan selmy and arthur dayne, the two greatest knights, on the lists. thats about as legit as it really gets when you are doing who vs who math.