Varamyr says something interesting. (SPOILERS)

[Lady Green]

Exactly. His body may die but his consciousness never will. It will live on in Ghost on hopefully jump back into his body once its not filled with holes.

But, the holes would still be there if he's resurrected, going back to unCat and unBerric, they both keep their wounds after becoming undead.

Thats one of the reasons that I think Jon is just in a coma, unJon just doesn't work as well, the Northerners, NW and Wildings aren't going to follow an undead person, even if they can see they're not a wight or Other. And that is why Jon is not dead.

[Dolorous K Dilkington]

So what? Neither Crows nor Wildlings will make that distinction if someone's dead body rises.

I think virtually any resurrection scenario, even if he never dies but recovers abnormally quickly, would freak people out. Of course the best way to convince people he's not an undead wight monster would be to say, "Hey guys, I'm not an undead wight monster. Look at my eyes. And also I can talk. Wights can't do that."

[Dolorous K Dilkington]

But, the holes would still be there if he's resurrected, going back to unCat and unBerric, they both keep their wounds after becoming undead.

Thats one of the reasons that I think Jon is just in a coma, unJon just doesn't work as well, the Northerners, NW and Wildings aren't going to follow an undead person, even if they can see they're not a wight or Other. And that is why Jon is not dead.

I was just trying to be snarky with the no-holes comment. He may very well have to bear those the rest of his life. While you raise a good point about the Night's Watch willingness to follow someone who came back from the dead, I still believe the Old Gods/warging and Red R'hollor resurrection fits his while ice+fire storyline very well.

Maybe they can skirt the undead leader thing by doing everything behind closed doors. There's no reason for full disclosure wrt the magic involved in him surviving.

[Lady Green]

I was just trying to be snarky with the no-holes comment. He may very well have to bear those the rest of his life. While you raise a good point about the Night's Watch willingness to follow someone who came back from the dead, I still believe the Old Gods/warging and Red R'hollor resurrection fits his while ice+fire storyline very well.

Maybe they can skirt the undead leader thing by doing everything behind closed doors. There's no reason for full disclosure wrt the magic involved in him surviving.

Oh sorry! The holes would be a bit of a give away that he was revived though! It does fit the storyline true but then again, wouldn't that make his parentage too obvious? If he is resurrected I see it purely being through ice, so an opposite to Dany.

Touché, clearly you have been plotting with Melisandre! Though you still have the issue of people seeing him die and then seeing him alive.

[Dolorous K Dilkington]

Oh sorry! The holes would be a bit of a give away that he was revived though! It does fit the storyline true but then again, wouldn't that make his parentage too obvious? If he is resurrected I see it purely being through ice, so an opposite to Dany.

Touché, clearly you have been plotting with Melisandre! Though you still have the issue of people seeing him die and then seeing him alive.

I don't think it would make it too obvious. Us here on the boards are in the extreme minority of die-hard fans who analyze (and over-analyze) everything, and judging by some of the "What theories don't you believe" threads, there are still some out there that deny R+L=J. I would expect it hasn't even occurred to most casual fans.

And unfortunately all this resurrection/warging thing isn't an exact science. Clearly we have some precedent with Bran, Varamyr, Cat, and Beric. We can speculate all day long but we don't have a complete set of rules for either phenomena (if there are any), so this may be the type of thing where the only solution is to wait and see. He could bear his wounds like Cat or Beric did, or GRRM could be all like, "what i didn't tell you guys, his consciousness never died so when he's reunited with his body he can heal like a normal person would lol."

ETA: and i would love it if he was resurrected solely through the old gods. I hate R'Hollor and how pushy him and and his followers are about everything. "One true god. Everyone else must convert bla bla bla save us from the scary things bla"

[Lady Green]

ETA: and i would love it if he was resurrected solely through the old gods. I hate R'Hollor and how pushy him and and his followers are about everything. "One true god. Everyone else must convert bla bla bla save us from the scary things bla"

I have my suspisions over R'hollor (I was quite anti-Mel in the Bowen Marsh's tears thread, I just don't like her, she's suspicious), I don't think he's the all good god his followers seem to think that he is. I hope you're right about the Old Gods resurrection, makes much more sense, especially because Jon identifies as a Stark, but also as you pointed out R+L=J probably hasn't occured to some people so a resurrection by ice and fire would probably confuse them.

[The Monkey]

It could be that his "death" leads to an enchantment of his warging powers, possibly up to the level that Bran currently is at.

*Wild speculation* There was a heart tree at the Tower of Joy, and Jon during his "dead" state will warg into it, at at the time Ned visited the dying Lyanna. Jon will see Ned carrying a baby (Jon), and having a conversation with Howland Reed, explaining everything. After he wakes up, Jon will finally realize he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. *Wild speculation*

[Lady Green]

I like your wild speculation ser, and that is a much more credible way of Jon finding out about his parents than hear say

[Scarlet Seastar]

It could be that his "death" leads to an enchantment of his warging powers, possibly up to the level that Bran currently is at.

*Wild speculation* There was a heart tree at the Tower of Joy, and Jon during his "dead" state will warg into it, at at the time Ned visited the dying Lyanna. Jon will see Ned carrying a baby (Jon), and having a conversation with Howland Reed, explaining everything. After he wakes up, Jon will finally realize he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. *Wild speculation*

I don't think so. Bran could only enter the weirwood net after he had eaten the weirwood paste. And even after he had eaten the paste, the only weirwood he had accessed was the tree at Winterfell. I believe it will take more than just the basic training Bran had to enter each weirwood at will. So, no Jon warging weirwoods.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Just to put it into perspective, a list of PoVs "dying" and somehow showing up being alive. Sometimes the same book, sometimes not.

- Bran

- Arya

- Arya

- Theon

- Asha

- Davos

- Davos

- Sam

- Sam

- Tyrion

- Brienne

- Jaime

List of povs being killed in their PoV and showing up undead:

- Cat

List of PoVs being killed and staying dead:

zero. Prologues don't count.

[Gi_Varotti]

*Wild speculation* There was a heart tree at the Tower of Joy, and Jon during his "dead" state will warg into it, at at the time Ned visited the dying Lyanna. Jon will see Ned carrying a baby (Jon), and having a conversation with Howland Reed, explaining everything. After he wakes up, Jon will finally realize he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. *Wild speculation*

I didn't know about the tree at the ToJ and I like your idea and I think that the crazy guess I had might fit here (I posted it in the Bloodraven & Ghost topic):

At first, I thought that Ghost could be a sort of BR's reincarnation or that they shared some bound (BR being involved in Jon finding Ghost) because of their appearance but as I couldn't find anything to support this I think their similarity is just because they both are albinos...

BUT...

I think they know each other (I'm not sure if BR can or has already warged into Ghost). We know from Jon's POVs that, sometimes, when Ghost went out to hunt it usually took him days to come back and that Jon saw the lack of game up north of the Wall as the reason why (I agreed with him until I learnt of the cave, the CotF and BR).

What if, in one of those days out, Ghost has found the mentioned cave? It could have been by chance or he could have followed a raven or even a prey that BR had warged into.

During Jon's stabbing, we 'heard' him whispering Ghost's name so, here's the insane theory I came up with, I that that Jon, warged into Ghost, will go out and meet BR and Bran's crew in the cave and this will be when he'll learn about his parents (maybe Howland has told Meera about what happened at the Tower of Joy and she'll tell Jon; or Bran will have a vision; or even BR - he could have known about it while warging around -> "how many eyes does Bloodraven have? A thousand and one") and that it'll also have a part to play in the process of Jon being reborn.

What made me think this was the dream Jon had about the darkness, the scent of blood, wolf, boy and tree:

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only ...

A weirwood .

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’sface. Had his brother always had three eyes? Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow. He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark.

No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

I don't think this dream meant the Winterfell crypts but, instead, was a foreshadowing of the cave. I remember that Bran saw some bones on its entrance.

Maybe Ghost, while 'Jonned', will head to the cave, have a chat with Bran and BR and warg into the sadi tree. It's crazy but it could happen, couldn't it?

[Gi_Varotti]

Just to put it into perspective, a list of PoVs "dying" and somehow showing up being alive. Sometimes the same book, sometimes not.

- Bran

- Arya

- Arya

- Theon

- Asha

- Davos

- Davos

- Sam

- Sam

- Tyrion

- Brienne

- Jaime

List of povs being killed in their PoV and showing up undead:

- Cat

List of PoVs being killed and staying dead:

zero. Prologues don't count.

Ned?

[Lion of Judah]

Varamyr says a lot of important things and also a lot of weird things as well. It does seems as though Jon is stronger than Varamyr, it's just that he has not been taught. But he says something things that give insight into the Starks children ability to warg and in particular how strong their bond to their wolves are. Varamyr had different animals that he could warg at the same time, it made me think about Arya and her pack. If that girl ever learns how to warg all those wolves at the same time like Varamyr did, then OMFG! Varamyr has a freaky side as well, he used to warg into the wolves while they were mating. :ack:

[The Red Pope]

ETA: and i would love it if he was resurrected solely through the old gods. I hate R'Hollor and how pushy him and and his followers are about everything. "One true god. Everyone else must convert bla bla bla save us from the scary things bla"

A shadowbaby has been dispatched to punish the blasphemy.

Yours truely, the Red Clergy.

[SeanF]

Maybe it's just me, but if Jon DOES hypothetically die for good, I have no problem with his fate being him dying and permanetly warging into Ghost. But that's just me.

That's kind of a bittersweet end to him, IMO.

And something else I think that, if GRRM intends to kill Jon Snow, this is THE ONLY chance to do so. If Jon Snow comes back or survives at all, then there's no way GRRM will be able to effectively kill Jon again within the story with anywhere near the same level of suspense/surprise.

Maybe Melisandre will keep Ghost/Jon as a pet.

[Gi_Varotti]

Varamyr has a freaky side as well, he used to warg into the wolves while they were mating. :ack:

Interesting (ew, not that point!). We don't know anything about the direwolves' father, do we?

[Lion of Judah]

Interesting (ew, not that point!). We don't know anything about the direwolves' father, do we?

I don't recall any mention of the direwolves' father.

[Ingelheim]

Interesting (ew, not that point!). We don't know anything about the direwolves' father, do we?

I think the direwolves were sent by Bloodraven; but that's other theory.

And yes, Jon is gonna warg into Ghost if he wants to live. But I don't know how he could return to his body.

[Gi_Varotti]

I don't recall any mention of the direwolves' father.

I think the direwolves were sent by Bloodraven; but that's other theory.

And yes, Jon is gonna warg into Ghost if he wants to live. But I don't know how he could return to his body.

I also think BR is involved with the pups. Maybe he is their father?

[Lady Green]

Just to put it into perspective, a list of PoVs "dying" and somehow showing up being alive. Sometimes the same book, sometimes not.

- Bran

- Arya

- Arya

- Theon

- Asha

- Davos

- Davos

- Sam

- Sam

- Tyrion

- Brienne

- Jaime

List of povs being killed in their PoV and showing up undead:

- Cat

List of PoVs being killed and staying dead:

zero. Prologues don't count.

Arys Oakheart is pretty dead dead too