Varamyr says something interesting. (SPOILERS)

[protar]

I must be the only one who is looking forward to some Unjon action. I mean he's pretty much been a stereotypcial hero archetype for the entire series: I mean he's the stoic, but still has a sarcastic sense of humour, he's the fulfillment of a prophecy (maybe.) and the heir to the throne (almost definitely.). He's got some angst issues and a troubled past involving his parents. How many characters have we seen with almost that exact, specific description. Let's zombify him, making a bit more interesting.

[idiotking]

I don't think Jon is going to come back like unCat and Berric, I think he'll resurrect (if he's dead as opposed to unconcious) in a way similar to Dany in GoT.

Sweet jeebus I hope so. I'm not a big fan of our zombie friends in the Riverlands!

[jon stark I]

There is a spesific information I think all of us are forgetting GRRM said " Ohhh you think he is dead right?" Which makes me think he didn't die but he is in some sort of a coma.

[lojzelote]

Ugh, thank you, Protar, but I really don't want to read a POV of someone who has to keep a hand on his stomach, so his entrails won't come out, and wonders whether his cock is really about to fall off or whether it's just a momentary feeling he has. There's enough disgusting details in the series without a zombified protagonist.

He can come out psychically messed up even without the Undead thing. After all, a man who wargs an animal for too long becomes half an animal himself.

[Masha]

I seem to remember somebody dream or vision about cold king with blue eyes protecting the wall. I always thought is symbolized that Jon would become some sort of self-aware other and protect the wall.

[protar]

Ugh, thank you, Protar, but I really don't want to read a POV of someone who has to keep a hand on his stomach, so his entrails won't come out, and wonders whether his cock is really about to fall off or whether it's just a momentary feeling he has. There's enough disgusting details in the series without a zombified protagonist.

He can come out psychically messed up even without the Undead thing. After all, a man who wargs an animal for too long becomes half an animal himself.

Who says that's going to happen? If his body is kept frozen the ice cells as is implied, he's not going to be rotting, and his wounds are hardly gaping holes for his guts to hang out. And besides, the presence of disgusting details is part of Martin's charm. Not to mention that Jon sardonically wondering whether his penis is about to fall off would be morbidly funny.

[lojzelote]

Who says that's going to happen? If his body is kept frozen the ice cells as is implied, he's not going to be rotting, and his wounds are hardly gaping holes for his guts to hang out. And besides, the presence of disgusting details is part of Martin's charm. Not to mention that Jon sardonically wondering whether his penis is about to fall off would be morbidly funny.

Perhaps you're right, but I just can't imagine what a POV of an essentially dead person would read like. I mean, I would completely stop caring what happens to him since it would be crystal clear he will become a 100% corpse by the end of the story anyway. Just like I forced myself to believe that Lady Stoneheart isn't really Cat anymore. With Jon it could be even worse, because we would probably get into his mind.

But I can see why it wouldn't bother those who weren't interested in him before his death in the first place.

[protar]

Perhaps you're right, but I just can't imagine what a POV of an essentially dead person would read like. I mean, I would completely stop caring what happens to him since it would be crystal clear he will become a 100% corpse by the end of the story anyway. Just like I forced myself to believe that Lady Stoneheart isn't really Cat anymore. With Jon it could be even worse, because we would probably get into his mind.

But I can see why it wouldn't bother those who weren't interested in him before his death in the first place.

There's no guarantee he has to die. We don't really know how much Jon could be considered undead with a preserved body and pysche. And make no mistake I like Jon and am interested in his story, but you can't deny he falls short of Martin's usual standards of subverting character archetypes.

[Mr Hodor]

what is dead my never die....

With so many theories saying he is not dead...well i dont suppose it would be the worst thing if he was....it will be Ned all over again.

but i also think that he is only mostly dead and not all dead

[lojzelote]

There's no guarantee he has to die. We don't really know how much Jon could be considered undead with a preserved body and pysche. And make no mistake I like Jon and am interested in his story, but you can't deny he falls short of Martin's usual standards of subverting character archetypes.

Oh, I didn't mean the thing with not liking Jon as a reproach. Not at all. Sorry. I also sort of hope that the stabbing experience will make him grayer, although I would go for in a less drastic way than zombifying.

If he "survived," I guess he could become Coldhands 2.0 and live at Nightfort. I don't think he would want it, though. UnBeric was fed up with his unlife and chose permanent death in the end. UnCat will certainly too, once her revenge is finished. (Unless smallfolk with pitchforks end her first.)

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

I see what you're getting at now, so because Jon's mind is 'protected' in Ghost he isn't going to be zombiefied because he isn't suffering from memory loss, if Mel then uses R'hollor to bring him back straight away then it would appear to everyone else that he's still alive and never actually died.

Though my personal belief is that Jon is just unconcious and will be for a while and warging into ghost is simply a wolf dream.

I like this better. My buddy and I have discussed this at great length. He likes to quiz me on what I would find acceptable. I don't want Jon to be reanimate, I want him alive. I want his wounds to heal and he be alive. I don't want an UnJon with gaping wounds and such.

We were quite drunk at this point, but my friend asked if I would accept Jon dead and body burnt, but somehow he comes back, like some sort of god. I admitted drunk I would accept it more than an Undead or totally dead Jon, but my whole perspective on the books would change.

[Lady Green]

UnJon just wouldn't work, too many issues for it to happen. As someone pointed out, Stark's are hard to kill.

(Though in Aurane Waters' words I hear removing the head is pretty fatal).

[Scipio Africanus]

And undead Jon would have the problem that he couldn't remember anything long term like Beric and likely Cat can't. Which poses a problem with what the author said: that Jon would know his true lineage at some point.

I don't think Jon will turn out like Beric or Cat for this reason. If alone that he can do something which they couldn't, namely warg in another living being and keep their conscience for at least a short while.

[ladyofslytherin]

I know that the dramatic nature of the scene reads like a death, but I actually have serious doubts about that being Jon's fate as well after re-reading the text.

First, there are only two confirmed grievous wounds: Bowen Marsh's "gut punch" and the knife between the shoulder blades. Wick Wittlestick only grazed Jon's throat; while that was enough to draw blood, so is a scratch from a cat's claws. And the last two lines: "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold..." We have no real evidence that a fourth knife wound was actually inflicted; only that Jon believed one was coming but he couldn't feel whether or not it landed because his body was going into shock from the other two, which was exacerbated by the fact that he had just fallen face-first into snow. So only two wounds both confirmed and serious.

Now, we don't know how deep the wound in his back is. If the knife was shoved forward in a punching motion with the blade horizontal, then there's a good chance it missed the ribs and spine to pierce the lungs or heart. But such a blow would be awkward when striking at a person's back because of a person's natural posture, even for someone standing over a kneeling victim and especially if that victim is hunching forward because of a wound already inflicted, therefore convexing the spine towards the attacker.

It's a more natural swing in this case to hold the blade vertically and swing down into the back in an arc, which puts more power behind the blow. The idea behind that is to try and punch the blade down through the bones that would be in the way of the blade's path to the heart or lungs. Problem is that if that strike isn't aimed perfectly, the blade can get caught by the spine or ribs and not penetrate deep enough to damage anything within the rib cage. So we don't have any guarantees that the blow to the back was even potentially fatal.

The belly wound is possibly more dangerous than the one between the shoulder blades. Stomach wounds are rarely immediately fatal, but tearing open the large intestine means that you have a high incidence of infection and septicemia, which takes days to kill someone.

Interesting to note that this is somewhat parallel to how Lyanna Stark probably died: based on Ned's memories of finding her in the ToJ, it's likely that she was carried off by puerperal septicemia, caused by an infection contracted during labor. If Jon really is her son, that's very sneaky symmetry on GRRM's part.

However... *gets back to the point*

We've got a perfect example of how Red Priests can call upon the power of Red Rahloo to cleanse infected wounds: ADWD Chapter 56- The Iron Suitor. Victarion's hand has turned all sorts of nasty and vile colors, pustulent and foul-smelling, in the wake of a wound he took on the Shield Islands. The maester he had on board couldn't stop the wound's festering and his only answer was amputation. But Moqorro was able to cure it with a Red ritual. While the flesh was blackened, it was living and cleansed.

So assuming that someone stopped the attack (which there were plenty of people around that would), Jon's injuries weren't necessarily severe enough to put him in immediate mortal danger. Melisandre could easily cleanse and heal the wounds using her skills as a Red Priestess, and he would wake up damaged but alive without any need to warg into Ghost to preserve his consciousness.

I know that the series we're reading lends itself to the fantastic pretty easily, but I for one would like a nice prosaic resolution to this issue.

[Mace Cooterian]

In ADWD's prologue when Varamyr is reflecting about seeing Jon Snow, he says that the boy has the gift and it's very strong in him. I think this important statement reflects the fate of Jon Snow at the end of ADWD and warging into Ghost. Problem is if he did, he will slowly start to lose control of himself to the animal. Kinda ironic how Ghost might contain the ghost of Jon Snow. Just a little observation.

The Varamyr prologue is one of my top five chapters in the thus far series of books as it goes into great detail about the abilities, limitations and consequences of wargs and skinchangers.

I would put myself in the crowd that Jon Snow will live to see another day. Ghost may very well be the holding vessel until his human body is reborn, healed, reanimated, call it what you will.

Once again, GRRM never ceases to amaze by reinforcing ideas in a mystique sort of hidden way. The quote from Varamyr "the boy has the gift and it's very strong in him" suggests that we are not done hearing about the escapades of young Jon.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

Just wanted to add the interesting points that Maester Aemon makes during his final speech to Sam. Sam wonders why Maester Aemon's wits have been wandering as they are on the ship outside of Braavos, and why his decline is so rapid. Here is what M. Aemon says:

"Or I am an old man, feverish and dying." He closed his white eyes wearily, then forced them open once again. "I should not have left the Wall. Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes, but cold preserves. The Wall... but it is too late to go running back. The Stranger waits outside my door and will not be denied. Steward, you have served me faithfully. "

Maester Aemon understands that the magic of the wall has preserved his vigor in some respect, for his 102 years, and he declines rapidly when he leaves the wall. The same magic, I believe, will be used to preserve Jon, even at the last thread of his life, until he can return to his body. I also noticed that they keep mentioning the ice cells. For some reason I feel as thought Jon will be put into an ice cell. The two bodies that were in there didn't rise into wights. Was it that they wouldn't, or couldn't? Perhaps the magic of the wall prevents this, as certainly, cold hands can't pass under the wall. Jon will be put into an ice cell so the others cannot use his body to become a wight. The magic of the wall above him will preserve his life until he resumes his body.

This also jives with the dream that Bran has in GoT:

"Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. "

[Quiet Isle]

Maybe it's just me, but if Jon DOES hypothetically die for good, I have no problem with his fate being him dying and permanetly warging into Ghost. But that's just me.

That's kind of a bittersweet end to him, IMO.

And something else I think that, if GRRM intends to kill Jon Snow, this is THE ONLY chance to do so. If Jon Snow comes back or survives at all, then there's no way GRRM will be able to effectively kill Jon again within the story with anywhere near the same level of suspense/surprise.

Nope. He's got a lot of things in the future that could kill Jon, like riding a dragon, facing the Others, etc. But imho it won't because Jon survives.

[Lady Green]

Talking about Jon's stabbing (as ladyofslytherin so kindly described), I want to bring up a point I've made before:

At this point Jon is a highly unreliable narrator, you're not likely to think straight if you're being stabbed, and as ladyofslytherin pointed out, the 4th knife could have been imagined. So we're reading what Jon is expecting to happen and what we expect to happening not what actually is happening.

And there's always some slight crackpotty chance that Jon is having a vision that feels real (Melisandre is projecting it to him).

[Grimwolfe]

i'm not sure jon will die or come back in an UnJon state, i think GRRM has done that too many times, i think (and hope) jon is in more of a coma like state after the stabbing, but wargs into ghost properly for the first time, aware of everything going on in the nights watch through Ghost, maybe even using Borroq and his boar to communicate to Tormund.

Safe to say when he comes back he will be the undisputed badass of westeros.

*also its been speculated that Jon is potentially the most powerful warg in westeros, even more so than Bran, next to maybe bloodraven but he's 'mastered' his skill so to speak and is also a greenseer, so this could be a key factor in warging into Ghost post stabbing.

[Lady Green]

Grimwolfe

I'm not disputing what you've said, but what makes you think that Jon is the most powerful warg in Westeros, and what difference does that make? (I'm just curious!)