flidderman Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Re. the Renly thing. I think Stannis just doesn't place any value in the arbitrary Westerosi notion of 'honour'. Why is killing someone with sorcery inherently more immoral than killing someone with a sword? In his view it isn't, they are both merely weapons. Why is killing your brother inherently more immoral than killing any other man? He didn't love his brother -- at least he didn't believe that he did prior to killing him -- and why should he? The idea that love is unconditional is irrational; love is contingent on its mutual expression. Regardless of their relation, Renly committed a crime (treason on a grand scale) and was treated as a criminal and an enemy.Stannis is virtually an Übermensch in the Nietzschean sense. A further, perhaps less controversial, example of this is his adamance that Shireen inherit the crown when he dies, which shows a complete disregard for traditional Westerosi gender roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevumar Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Nope. Dragons have been living in the wilderness before Valyrians have learned how to harness their power. Shadowbabies didn'. And what Stannis did is kinslaying.They were going to be fighting a battle anyway. Everyone understood that when you raise an army and lead it in the field, it's possible you may die. The superstitions surrounding "kinslaying" are excessive in Westeros, but there's no reason to fault Stannis for killing the commander of the opposing force. Renly should get a pass just because he's the brother of the guy on the other side of the field? Makes no sense...Meanwhile, the shadow assassins are scary and unnatural (but ask how a dragon is any less scary or unnatural to someone who has never seen a magical creature of anykind) but they are an outgrowth of blood magic (or life force magic, if you prefer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Nope. Dragons have been living in the wilderness before Valyrians have learned how to harness their power. Shadowbabies didn'. And what Stannis did is kinslaying.Nonsense, hypocrisy and nonsense. So because the dragons have been around for a long time using them as a weapon of war is ok? What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I have to say, I have read some crazy things on this board, but damn, that wins the prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevumar Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Nonsense, hypocrisy and nonsense. So because the dragons have been around for a long time using them as a weapon of war is ok? What?And that's ignoring the fact that blood magic has probably also been around since the dawn of humanity. It's pretty easy to observe that blood is what carries the life force of people and it's a short step beyond that to try to free and harness that power for another purpose. Our own history has numerous examples of it and magic doesn't even work here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfell Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Re. the Renly thing. I think Stannis just doesn't place any value in the arbitrary Westerosi notion of 'honour'. Why is killing someone with sorcery inherently more immoral than killing someone with a sword? In his view it isn't, they are both merely weapons. :agree:Thank you, this bugs the hell out of me, I can understand the argument that sorcery is unethical because it's relatively uncounterable and underhand, but if people are going to claim that it's inherently wrong then they have to back that up with evidence and there is none; in fact, the shadow babies are arguably more ethically sound than using human assassins as you're not exposing another person to danger or asking them to murder and the cost of creating them is borne voluntarily by Stannis himself.And besides that it's not as if Renly was willing to fight fair, he had superior numbers and he pragmatically chose to use them, Stannis had sorcery and he pragmatically chose to use that; to be honest either of them would have been stupid to hold back on using their advantages, much as I hate the shadow babies as a plot device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherAnduin Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 And that's ignoring the fact that blood magic has probably also been around since the dawn of humanity. It's pretty easy to observe that blood is what carries the life force of people and it's a short step beyond that to try to free and harness that power for another purpose. Our own history has numerous examples of it and magic doesn't even work here.That logic also conveniently ignores how dragons were extinct and were resurrected by blood/black magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Full-Faced Braavosi Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Is that wrong, though? Robert's forces usurped (a word I hate anyway, because it reminds me of Dany's annoying petulance) the throne from Aerys because he had stopped being worthy of being the king, through his insanity, sadism and cruelty. They did not hide their identities, they came in through the front door, in public, and they did it. Contrast that to Cersei trying to pass off her bastards as Baratheons for no good reason other than wanting to consolidate her own power. This is not the Lannisters officially supplanting the Baratheons; it's Lannisters trying to pass themselves off as Baratheons, because it is still the Baratheons who are the legal royal family.So I think the Baratheon victory and Cersei's are kind of two different animals.Is it wrong that "might makes right" in the world of Westeros? Not really. It just becomes silly, once we recognize that (or Varys's "power resides where men believe it resides") to whine about others trying to take the throne. Whoever controls the throne, controls the throne. It's only "rightfully" Stannis's, if he can control it... and apparently he cannot. Once we agree that there aren't any real rights beyond what you can enforce, he is basically calling himself out.Cersei and Stannis's claims are the same - they are both using the post-war legitimization of legal/religious/whatever claims to the throne as the rightful heir (albeit Cersei's is a lie). Both are saying, the rules say Y is the rightful heir to X, and because X took W's throne, Y is the rightful heir to W's throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 There are plenty of problems with Stannis, even if you discount the shadowbabies: his treatment of Cresswen a man who grew old serving him, his treatment of his wife,his callous taunting of Gilly, his chilly mention to Jon that he "find a better match for her than Ramsay Snow.". Like I said earlier, the man is hard, cold and incapable of pity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevumar Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 That logic also conveniently ignores how dragons were extinct and were resurrected by blood/black magic.This is the last I'm going to say about dragons, since they're only mentioned for the sake of comparison. There's some indirect evidence that dragons still existed in Asshai at the start of the story, perhaps because Asshai behaves as kind of a sorcerous hot spot in the world.The spell Stannis worked with Melisandre can't really be considered equivalent, as another poster already pointed out that Stannis is the one who paid the cost for the magic, while Dany murdered someone else to power her spell. The magic on Drogo's pyre hatched three dragons, when Dany will only ever be able to ride one.If you want to start a thread debating the ethics of various applications of magic in the series, I think it would be an interesting one and I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevumar Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 There are plenty of problems with Stannis, even if you discount the shadowbabies: his treatment of Cresswen a man who grew old serving him, his treatment of his wife,his callous taunting of Gilly, his chilly mention to Jon that he "find a better match for her than Ramsay Snow.". Like I said earlier, the man is hard, cold and incapable of pity.I don't think anyone is contending that Stannis is a particularly nice or cuddly guy. He's not, and that's what the challenge is with him. But that's a far different question than whether Stannis is honorable or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I don't think anyone is contending that Stannis is a particularly nice or cuddly guy. He's not, and that's what the challenge is with him. But that's a far different question than whether Stannis is honorable or not.He isn't honourable either-it is not honourable to mock an old man in open court or a young girl whose father used to rape her. It is not honourable to abandon your elder brother to his death when you could easily have taken steps to warn him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolex Baratheon Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 So.... Stannis uses shadowbaby to kill a guy with a much larger army who is annexing the Throne and gets hated for it? Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 People think that Stannis knew Gilly was raped? Where'd you get that from? He probably thought it was consensual, a sick custom of the barbarians north of the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 So.... Stannis uses shadowbaby to kill a guy with a much larger army who is annexing the Throne and gets hated for it? Lol. Yeah, what world do we live in where people gets hated for murdering their brothers? The horror... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 So.... Stannis uses shadowbaby to kill a guy with a much larger army who is annexing the Throne and gets hated for it? Lol.Renly was his brother; at least, don't kill him like that. And I am a Stannis fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 People think that Stannis knew Gilly was raped? Where'd you get that from? He probably thought it was consensual, a sick custom of the barbarians north of the wall.Huh, you know, if he's first reaction to "her father got this child on her" is "she must have seduced him", t makes him out to be a sick jerk rather than just a callous one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Renly was his brother; at least, don't kill him like that. And I am a Stannis fan.How else should he kill him? Renly had til dawn, didn't surrender, died at dawn, it's not like he wasn't warned.Huh, you know, if he's first reaction to "her father got this child on her" is "she must have seduced him", t makes him out to be a sick jerk rather than just a callous one.What? I didn't say he thought she seduced him. I said he probably thinks it's a custom of those north of the wall, ie, something normal and not looked down upon up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolantero Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 There are plenty of problems with Stannis, even if you discount the shadowbabies: his treatment of Cresswen a man who grew old serving him, his treatment of his wife,his callous taunting of Gilly, his chilly mention to Jon that he "find a better match for her than Ramsay Snow.". Like I said earlier, the man is hard, cold and incapable of pityYes, Selyse the poor thing. How does Stannis even dare not warming up to such a charismatic, good-hearted and exceptionally pleasant character... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 What? I didn't say he thought she seduced him. I said he probably thinks it's a custom of those north of the wall, ie, something normal and not looked down upon up there.Again, if that's his first thought, he's sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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