Sansa and Littlefinger - Is She Buying It?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Uh. An adult actor getting cozy with an underage girl? I would not touch that part of the series with a ten foot pole if I was in charge of the production. It's really nice on paper, of course.

They wouldn't need to get cozy exactly...just spend more time together, "talking". :)

Mycah.

A "grey" beast? Maybe?

[~Shiera Seastar~]

Sansa was making Littlefinger buy that she was buying what he was buying her. Confusing :unsure: . I think Sansa was just telling Littlefinger the words he wanted to hear to make him believe that she trusted him.

Since we do not know exactly what's in Littlefinger's mind, maybe he was telling himself, "I don't buy it, Sweetling" (with a sly smile).

[straits]

A "grey" beast? Maybe?

I am mercilessly against child murderers for whatever reason. Otherwise Jamie and Sandor would have been in my prestigious Top Five club.

Sandor is a demon. Only because he lived in hell, though, to paraphrase Blood Diamond. Jamie is just broken.

[MostInterestingManWesteros]

I am mercilessly against child murderers for whatever reason. Otherwise Jamie and Sandor would have been in my prestigious Top Five club.

Sandor is a demon. Only because he lived in hell, though, to paraphrase Blood Diamond. Jamie is just broken.

The Hound is sooo lame.

[straits]

The Hound is sooo lame.

I know. Can you believe how much crap Gregor gets over teaching him the concept of possession? :devil:

[Theda Baratheon]

The Hound is sooo lame.

:angry2:

[MostInterestingManWesteros]

I know. Can you believe how much crap Gregor gets over teaching him the concept of possession? :devil:

Hahahahahaha!!!! :rofl:

Just laughed out loud at work and got some bewildered looks. :blushing:

@ Madame Mya Bara Stone: Come on, he's sooo lame. I understand where the idea of them comes from the text, but personally I throw that whole relationship in the, "evidence GRRM is a creeper" column.

[Éadaoin]

It's a very interesting question, Éadoin. As you yourself point in your OP, Sansa becomes an increasingly subtly-written character.

I think that she is beginning to see Lord Pissant for what he is, but because of her past experiences -- her relationships with Joffrey, Tyrion, the Lannisters, and the Tyrells -- she doesn't want to let too much show, nor does she want to jump to any conclusions. But there are a couple of clues to her wising up. One is her realization of the duality in Pissant's persona: "Petyr" and "Littlefinger." Second is her mixed feelings about the idea of marrying Harry the Heir. Third is her relationship with Sweetrobin, which, while frustrating at times for Sansa, I think is genuine on both parties' parts. And fourth is how quickly Sansa realizes that Lyn Corbray's opposition to LF is a ruse engineered by LF himself. She's beginning to see how LF plays the game and how things about him aren't always as they seem.

As I write and think about Sansa's increasing subtlety, I'm reminded of a brilliant post by tze (unfortunately I can't remember which thread it's in, so I can't link it) in which she argues that Sansa as Alayne is becoming more like Jon Snow. Sansa has now walked a mile in her bastard brother's shoes and become the outsider. As such, she now has the outsider's perspective that Jon had at Winterfell. Remember how Jon was able to size everyone up as they entered Winterfell's Great Hall for the royal feast? Sansa can now do the same. She immediately picks out Lyn Corbray as LF's mole among the Lords Declarant; she's very wary of Myranda Royce; and she's unsure of the Harry the Heir plan. In fact, Sansa may be starting to view Lord Pissant the same way Jon views Melisandre: Sansa recognize's LF's power, such as it is, but she's not sure if he's a person that she ultimately wants to be indebted to.

Yes, I agree that Sansa seems to be wising up - this is what leads me to believe (or hope) that LF is not a repeat of Joffrey. She has seen so much, and learned quite a bit. Taking on the Alayne persona seems like a survival mechanism, a necessity, as others have pointed out in this thread.

Really like the Sansa/Jon connection. These are two characters who I might have never thought to compare.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Sansa is getting closer and closer to her "Eureka Moment." The moment where she finally puts all the pieces together and makes the conscious decision to act. Given how GRRM has gone four books without Sansa's "Eureka Moment", its safe to say its gonna happen really soon and in a pretty massive way.

Sansa's gonna do something amazeballs.

As for her buying into Littlefinger's shit, its hard to say right now. It seems that shes waffling back and forth a bit on whether or not shes kosher with his crap. She seems to want to follow his lead in order to stay safe, but it also seems shes having some internal moral dilemmas. This will lead to her "Moment".

Cuz really, i dont think she will succumb to Littlefinger's bullshit. Someone made a comparison to Arya's situation and i agree. Its similar. Arya is dangerously close to becoming No One/Faceless. Sansa is facing the same thing with Pissant. But theres enough evidence that both girls will eventually chose their own way.

[Kittykatknits]

<snip>

Amazing post makes me miss the like button again

I am re-reading her now, and she is quite awesome. Originally, it was hard to forgive her for the "I love Joffrey" stuff because I never truly looked at things from Sansa's perspective, but things have changed.

Actually, I didn't much care for her at first. I changed my mind on a re-read, when I read just her chapters. It helped me to stay in only her head space and better see things from her perspective. The naive girl is still there but it also helped me to realize just how uninformed she was about much of what was happening around her in Game. That realized put me in a place where I could begin to really appreciate her.

Yep, and I'm convinced that that's the angle GRRM was going for. The TV show let me down when it came to San/San.

The TV Show let me down when it came to...I better just stop now.

As I write and think about Sansa's increasing subtlety, I'm reminded of a brilliant post by tze (unfortunately I can't remember which thread it's in, so I can't link it) in which she argues that Sansa as Alayne is becoming more like Jon Snow. Sansa has now walked a mile in her bastard brother's shoes and become the outsider. As such, she now has the outsider's perspective that Jon had at Winterfell. Remember how Jon was able to size everyone up as they entered Winterfell's Great Hall for the royal feast? Sansa can now do the same. She immediately picks out Lyn Corbray as LF's mole among the Lords Declarant; she's very wary of Myranda Royce; and she's unsure of the Harry the Heir plan. In fact, Sansa may be starting to view Lord Pissant the same way Jon views Melisandre: Sansa recognize's LF's power, such as it is, but she's not sure if he's a person that she ultimately wants to be indebted to.

If it is the post I think you are referring too, tze wrote it for a p2p thread some time ago and it's been copied and linked to ever since. It comes up all the time and is still an amazing read.

Lot's of great points in this thread. Ultimately, I don't think Sansa is buying what LF is selling but I wouldn't go so far as to say she isn't in any danger.

There are a few thoughts of hers that are rather revealing. First, she thinks to herself that LF never lifted his little finger to help her in KL. In other words, she is very aware that he did nothing to help her at a time when she was still being beaten regularly. Later, she lies to LF when he asks whether she can really be Alayne in her heart and then thinks to herself that she would leave the Vale if she had anywhere to go.

The big challenge for Sansa at this stage is her lack of trust for anyone, she's actually spun to the opposite end of the spectrum we found her in at the beginning of the series. She briefly thinks that she could go to Bronze Yohn Royce and then ultimately decides not to trust him as he never did anything for her brother. Of course, we know this is not the complete story but Sansa would not have this information.

This is the big challenge for Sansa if she is going to get out from underneath his influence I think. It's not enough to distrust him, she's going to need to figure out how to get away from his grasp and that is going to involve accepting help from others. We get some hints that she might come to do so with Mya Stone and Lothur Brune but this could still go in many different directions.

Actually, one of my favorite things to do is play the "what if" game when it comes to figuring out how Sansa is going to get out of the Vale. I am convinced she isn't going to be up in those mountains for the rest of the series.

[Theda Baratheon]

Sansa is getting closer and closer to her "Eureka Moment." The moment where she finally puts all the pieces together and makes the conscious decision to act. Given how GRRM has gone four books without Sansa's "Eureka Moment", its safe to say its gonna happen really soon and in a pretty massive way.

Sansa's gonna do something amazeballs.

As for her buying into Littlefinger's shit, its hard to say right now. It seems that shes waffling back and forth a bit on whether or not shes kosher with his crap. She seems to want to follow his lead in order to stay safe, but it also seems shes having some internal moral dilemmas. This will lead to her "Moment".

Cuz really, i dont think she will succumb to Littlefinger's bullshit. Someone made a comparison to Arya's situation and i agree. Its similar. Arya is dangerously close to becoming No One/Faceless. Sansa is facing the same thing with Pissant. But theres enough evidence that both girls will eventually chose their own way.

Yes. All of this. I really can't wait until this happens.

[otherbeef]

Sansa is already used to putting on an act to stay safe (Kings Landing), I have to think deep down she knows LF isn't to be trusted (first hand view of his lying about Marillion) and will break free of him eventually. could still learn a thing or two from him along the way though.

[Theda Baratheon]

Sansa is already used to putting on an act to stay safe (Kings Landing), I have to think deep down she knows LF isn't to be trusted (first hand view of his lying about Marillion) and will break free of him eventually. could still learn a thing or two from him along the way though.

Yeh, definitely

[Naathi Prince]

Sansa is currently stuck with Baelish, but I wouldn't call her "under his control". Sansa is conflicted about Petyr, but she does not trust him fully, because she has good reason not. She sees that Petyr doesn't really care for anyone besides himself, and the quick and emotionless way he disposed of both Ser Dontos and Lysa. She also knows she doesn't have much of a choice. This will all change soon, she is at the Gates of the Moon now, with Nestor and Myranda Royce, and Petyr Baelish has taken Ser Shadrich into his service.

[redviper9]

Yes, I agree that Sansa seems to be wising up - this is what leads me to believe (or hope) that LF is not a repeat of Joffrey. She has seen so much, and learned quite a bit. Taking on the Alayne persona seems like a survival mechanism, a necessity, as others have pointed out in this thread.

Really like the Sansa/Jon connection. These are two characters who I might have never thought to compare.

There are some interesting parallels, especially when you think of how their arcs have been reversed. Sansa started off on top of the world as the girl betrothed to the Crown Prince, and now she's a "bastard" accused of regicide. Jon started off as the sullen bastard, but he rose through the ranks of the Night's Watch -- his name is even known in Braavos now, as we learn in one of Arya's chapters -- and, as confirmed by the app, he can (if he's still alive) claim the title of King in the North. I also think it's not an accident that you see Jon and Sansa increasingly thinking of each other as their arcs progress.

Sansa is getting closer and closer to her "Eureka Moment." The moment where she finally puts all the pieces together and makes the conscious decision to act. Given how GRRM has gone four books without Sansa's "Eureka Moment", its safe to say its gonna happen really soon and in a pretty massive way.

Sansa's gonna do something amazeballs.

As for her buying into Littlefinger's shit, its hard to say right now. It seems that shes waffling back and forth a bit on whether or not shes kosher with his crap. She seems to want to follow his lead in order to stay safe, but it also seems shes having some internal moral dilemmas. This will lead to her "Moment".

Cuz really, i dont think she will succumb to Littlefinger's bullshit. Someone made a comparison to Arya's situation and i agree. Its similar. Arya is dangerously close to becoming No One/Faceless. Sansa is facing the same thing with Pissant. But theres enough evidence that both girls will eventually chose their own way.

Agreed; and I think that's a result of her past experiences with Joffrey and company. She's learning to be warier and not take things at face value. Again, look at how she senses Pissant's duality and Lyn Corbray's true role with the Lords Declarant. I think part of her waffling though is also a result of the fact that she's still a good person. She knows that the world isn't the way it's portrayed in the songs she loved, but she also hasn't become so cynical to the point that she's just given up on everything and everyone, including LF.

If it is the post I think you are referring too, tze wrote it for a p2p thread some time ago and it's been copied and linked to ever since. It comes up all the time and is still an amazing read.

Yes, Kittykatknits, that is the post I'm referring to. I'm searching for it now -- there's so much PtP material to wade through -- so I can link or quote it here, because I think it can be useful to this conversation (and it gives me an excuse to read it again).

Regarding how Sansa gets out of the Vale, I think the Lords Declarant might play a role there. Sansa already knows that Lyn Corbray is playing them false. And now that she's down from the Eyrie and amongst more of the Vale's nobility, she might learn the real reason why the knights of the Vale didn't lend their support to Robb. If she finds out that they wanted to fight with him all along -- even if they didn't necessarily recognize him as their king -- she might decide that they can be trusted. Of course, this is just speculation on my part.

[Theda Baratheon]

I wonder if Mya will have a part to play :read:

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I am mercilessly against child murderers for whatever reason. Otherwise Jamie and Sandor would have been in my prestigious Top Five club.

Sandor is a demon. Only because he lived in hell, though, to paraphrase Blood Diamond. Jamie is just broken.

Oh, I see.

Actually, I didn't much care for her at first. I changed my mind on a re-read, when I read just her chapters. It helped me to stay in only her head space and better see things from her perspective. The naive girl is still there but it also helped me to realize just how uninformed she was about much of what was happening around her in Game. That realized put me in a place where I could begin to really appreciate her.

Yeppers, that is what did it for me as well. I was also able to fully appreciate how much she went through emotionally and physically. Her later chapters in King's Landing were truly heartbreaking.

[Kittykatknits]

But then this needs to be executed in a way that will properly convey implied romantic undertones, many of which are only perceived due to how the reader experiences the scene. I find myself to catch certain hints and oddities while reading books, but any hint of budding romance between Sansa and Sandor sailed way past my head. I just didn't mark this down as something that would be a desirable development, I guess.

Which is why the changes to the show were made. I think the differences made sense considering the different mediums. Still hate the show...

I saw him more as a teacher than them ever developing anything romantically, but if they did I'd trust GRRM to make it work. :dunno:

Martin confirmed the romantic angle between the two of them in a Sword and Laser interview he did last summer. It's not a student/teach or father/daughter relationship at all.

Yes, I agree that Sansa seems to be wising up - this is what leads me to believe (or hope) that LF is not a repeat of Joffrey. She has seen so much, and learned quite a bit. Taking on the Alayne persona seems like a survival mechanism, a necessity, as others have pointed out in this thread.

Really like the Sansa/Jon connection. These are two characters who I might have never thought to compare.

In an earlier p2p thread, I put together a long argument on how Sansa and Alayne are actually the same thing. I'm to lazy to find it however so I'll do my best to rewrite a (very) short summary. In the final chapter, we got some clues that Sansa is still there, such as when she hears the ghost wolf. The Alayne persona comes across as Sansa loosing herself or perhaps falling victim to LF's machinations but I don't think that is the case. Rather, Sansa is learning to explore who she is and is finding a freedom in being Alayne that she could not while publicly known as Sansa Stark. In her thoughts, Sansa thinks on how Alayne has no claim or birth the way Sansa does which gives her a sense of freedom that has been lacking. There is no expectation for Alyane to be dutiful or to lie in court. It's Sansa stretching her wings, so to speak.

I do believe that Sansa will eventually take what she has learned during her time as Alayne, the sense of freedom and increased self-confidence and incorporate that in to Sansa Stark's future character development. So, I look at Alayne not as proof of Sansa losing herself but as a way to grow Sansa.

Actually, I look at Arya's time as no one in the house of black and white in the same way. I don't think Arya is losing herself, but growing in a way that she would not otherwise be able to and will take that and further her own character development. I have no doubt that either sister will come back to herself in the end.

[straits]

I wonder if Mya will have a part to play :read:

Never.

[Ludd]

I think that Miranda Royce is well aware of who Sansa is. The many questions designed to trick her. Sansa knew the name Jon Snow - a sure give away of her origins. No bastard girl raised in Essos would know that name.