Sansa and Littlefinger - Is She Buying It?

[Grail King]

It was a complete disappointment. :/

We already have Pocahontas story, Beauty and the Beast is just welcome. I like Disney movies ^ ^ :D

I do believe that the producers said the SanSan storyline will play out as the series continue.

[Grimwolfe]

i have a worrying feeling that LF is going to pull a viserys and attempt to claim Sansa's maidenhead before her wedding night with Harry the Heir, [which may resort in Harry killing LF and helping sansa reclaim winterfell]

[Grail King]

Sansa was making Littlefinger buy that she was buying what he was buying her. Confusing :unsure: . I think Sansa was just telling Littlefinger the words he wanted to hear to make him believe that she trusted him.

Since we do not know exactly what's in Littlefinger's mind, maybe he was telling himself, "I don't buy it, Sweetling" (with a sly smile).

did you mean this? -> Sansa was making Littlefinger buy that she was buying what he was buying selling her.

ETA: I saw later Kittykatnits phrased it in her response to a post afterwards.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

I don't think he will marry Sansa. I just don't want to see LF lord of winterfell. That would be so anticlimax to the whole ASOIAF.

LF belongs to the south, KL and court intrigues, not the North.

[Grail King]

Sansa is a child (11 in AGOT), so childish idealism is to be expected, it's pretty ridiculous to call it a "deep character flaw"

:agree: :agree:

[Grail King]

Yeah, I agree. I know lots of people think Arya is ultimately going to go on to be an assassin but I kinda think her time with the FM is more than that. She's learning how to read people, assume identities, think things through as you say. It's all skills for spying and espionage. One of my dream endings is for the two Stark sisters to team up and rule WF and the North together, they'd have many complimentary skills that would make a great combination. Now that I've said it aloud, Martin will make sure it doesn't happen. :(

Don't worry many of us said the same so there will be plenty of blame to spread around.

[Éadaoin]

Don't worry many of us said the same so there will be plenty of blame to spread around.

Yes indeed! I've spoken about this with another poster, actually. I think that once they've matured (and they have matured since the beginning of the series), Arya and Sansa could potentially make a great team. They do have many skills that complement each other, and they've both been learning so much. In this equation, I think of Arya as "fire" and Sansa as "ice". If they ever come together, people better watch out. :D

[Theda Baratheon]

I'd love to see a Sansa/Arya reunion!

[Tagganaro]

Great thread Eadaoin. I've wondered about this as well.

My general inkling is that Sansa is sort of taking a break right now- For the first time in her life since leaving WF, she's actually in a situation where her life isn't threatened on a daily basis and there is no consistent abuse/threat of rape, beating, torture. I think she sort of wants that to last for a little bit longer. LF is doing his damned best to snap her out of it though with his pedo conditioning techniques.

I'm not really sure she's in a position to question or move against LF at this point because she's actually enjoying the relative level of safety at the time, and LF hasn't done anything particularly egregious to force her to make a decision.

I imagine that's all about to change what with Sansa's upcoming nuptials to HtH and the threat of SR's demise. It is however weird that we haven't really gotten any reflection from Sansa about what Lysa said before she died. Because that's some really incriminating crap right there for LF.

So in conclusion, I don't really think Sansa is "buying" anything at the moment, she's sort of just going along with it and not letting it bother her. When push comes to shove, I'm willing to bet LF is a deadman.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

I'm sorry to sound so pessimistic, but I strongly feel that Sansa (as Alayne) will become far more morally gray, and her character dark as she falls further under Littlefinger's spell. He is a mastermind at psychological warfare, and yes, she's buying it. Hook, line and sinker. I don't have the time at the moment to quote every example from the three chapters in Feast, but as you read it, you can see how she continually rationalizes his behavior, squelches her own doubts, and begins to identify with her "captor". I mentioned in the Arya thread that I believe she has stockhold syndrome, and why not? She is so emotionally vulnerable, and LF purposesly keeps her in that state of fear and dependance. He is subtle, but if you read closely, you see his work plain as day. In one chapter, he even lays the blame of the deaths of Joffrey, Dontos and even Lysa on her shoulders, saying "Do you want even more blood on those pretty little hands? That's emotional abuse, and part of his very calculated plan to turn her into his minion. In the early chapters, she is still thinking on two levels. Alayne, and Sansa, and does question his motives and nurtures her own doubts, but by the last chapter, she's exclusively thinking as Alayne, Littlefinger's creation, ready to poison Sweetrobin, ordering around servants, flirting with knights, and allowing him to kiss her "for a long time" on the lips. She blames Lysa wholy for the moondoor incedent without ever really laying part of the blame on LF for kissing her in the first place. Her thoughts make it quite plain when she says "Littlefinger is the only true friend I have", or something to that effect. She feels hopeless, and helpless to change her situation. Doubtless, as time goes on, she will continue to defend his actions, and even if given the chance to reveal herself to someone who could help her, would be too afraid to because of LF's constant reminder that she is nothing without him, he is her big hero, and she needs to do whatever he tells her to do.

I don't see any of Sansa's supposed strength in these chapters, rather I see, quite tragically, that she is falling ever deeper into fear, doubt, co-dependance, and losing her Sansa identity completely. I fear she will continue to make decisions she thinks will please LF, and as Alayne, her actions and decisions will be drastically different than what Sansa herself would do. Because she's acting as Alayne, psychologically, morally gray choices will become ok, and defensible, because LF's passive agressive threats give her no perceived choice.

[Waylin Stark]

Also a major concern of mine.

I do hope she doesn't fall for his BS and becomes independent of his influence. Maybe she'll suddenly kill him after a while and it'll come as a shock for us where she was playing Alayne, but plotting as Sansa.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

Ì get that you like Sansa - I like her as well but I really think you are wrong. All of your argument in favour of "she will betray Petyr" are not supported by the text by actions or plans but by the logic "I want it to happen because that how it should and thats how i want". GRRM is not the author that goes by the cliches and the textbook stories - what you're thinking of reminds me more of "The Wheel of Time" series with its black and white morality, plot armor and expected outcomes (don't get me wrong i love it). So far Sansa has been in a hostile world with no one close to her after Ned's death with constant horrors and suddenly Littlefinger comes, saves her, shelters her, protects her, seemingly cares for her, lays down plans that will benefit her - he is the father figure she is looking for and so far apart from the kisses he is the perfect father to her - why would she turn on him. To me it seems more likely that she will be in league with Littlefinger and will greatly benefit from it.

I totally agree with this.. I think we are the only ones who feel this grim about the situation, lol. Ultimately, I think Sansa will pull out of this, but not after a lot of damage and darkness. My little pet theory is that she may only snap out of it when Petyr outright tries to engineer Sweetrobin's death and she has to make the choice to save the little boy, or close her eyes to it because Littlefinger tries to convince her that it's profitable politically, and/or a mercy for the child.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

I just have to add this one point about the evil genious of Littlefinger (then I'll shut up, I promise): By giving Sansa the alter ego of Alayne, he removes Sansa's responsibilities for Alayne's actions. Sansa is beholden to Sansa's experience and conscience. Alayne is Littlefinger's creation, and belongs only to littlefinger. I believe, psychologically, that it will be very easy for Sansa to morph completely and totally into Alayne, who in time, will do things that Sansa would never do because Alayne has the freedom from the same moral consequences. Such as "A lie is not wrong if it's kindly meant", ect.

[brashcandy]

I totally agree with this.. I think we are the only ones who feel this grim about the situation, lol. Ultimately, I think Sansa will pull out of this, but not after a lot of damage and darkness. My little pet theory is that she may only snap out of it when Petyr outright tries to engineer Sweetrobin's death and she has to make the choice to save the little boy, or close her eyes to it because Littlefinger tries to convince her that it's profitable politically, and/or a mercy for the child.

That's basically the situation she is facing at the end of AFFC. Clearly LF's method of getting rid of SR won't be sudden and dramatic; he's slowly poisoning him and Sansa is the only one, besides the Maester I suppose, who has knowledge of why SR's "medicine" is so dangerous. Thinking that Sansa will close her eyes to this reality - now that she's been given signs that something is definitely suspicious - doesn't jibe with her character development in the four books. She's still compassionate and caring towards others, even though she's had to develop a more pragmatic and "hardened" approach to what she's faced in the Eyrie. And despite SR's bratty behaviour, he and Sansa have come to share a kind of understanding. The night LF tells Sansa that SR will die is moments after Sansa and the boy had just survived a daring crossing on the mountain. I don't think Sansa holds the same kind of fatalistic certainty about SR's fate, and she won't be keen to contribute to his demise.

[

I just have to add this one point about the evil genious of Littlefinger (then I'll shut up, I promise): By giving Sansa the alter ego of Alayne, he removes Sansa's responsibilities for Alayne's actions. Sansa is beholden to Sansa's experience and conscience. Alayne is Littlefinger's creation, and belongs only to littlefinger. I believe, psychologically, that it will be very easy for Sansa to morph completely and totally into Alayne, who in time, will do things that Sansa would never do because Alayne has the freedom from the same moral consequences. Such as "A lie is not wrong if it's kindly meant", ect.

Alayne may be LF's creation, but it's disputable about who's really shaping that identity. So far, we've seen Alayne becoming a mother of sorts to SR, however reluctantly; bonding with Mya Stone and taking an interest in her romantic future; continuing to have thoughts of Sandor Clegane, along with Sansa's bastard brother, Jon Snow. Alayne is also not very happy about the marriage betrothal her father has made to HtH. Unless you stick to a very superficial reading, and ignore telling signs and symbols, Sansa is clearly the driving force behind Alayne. It's her "bastard brave" identity, the one that she can use to explore the kind of agency and sense of freedom that Sansa has not enjoyed for a long time.

[Éadaoin]

I totally agree with this.. I think we are the only ones who feel this grim about the situation, lol. Ultimately, I think Sansa will pull out of this, but not after a lot of damage and darkness. My little pet theory is that she may only snap out of it when Petyr outright tries to engineer Sweetrobin's death and she has to make the choice to save the little boy, or close her eyes to it because Littlefinger tries to convince her that it's profitable politically, and/or a mercy for the child.

I think a few others were concerned as well. Thank you for your thoughts, the thread has been pretty positive thus far and it is nice to get some different opinions in. I agree that Sansa will ultimately not be a pawn of Littlefinger's, and I actually think that she will probably take him down, but I too am concerned about what damage she could undergo on the way to that. Poor girl has seen enough. However, thanks to this thread (and I really need to find some PtP posts on it, too), I am feeling optimistic.

Great thread Eadaoin. I've wondered about this as well.

My general inkling is that Sansa is sort of taking a break right now- For the first time in her life since leaving WF, she's actually in a situation where her life isn't threatened on a daily basis and there is no consistent abuse/threat of rape, beating, torture. I think she sort of wants that to last for a little bit longer. LF is doing his damned best to snap her out of it though with his pedo conditioning techniques.

I'm not really sure she's in a position to question or move against LF at this point because she's actually enjoying the relative level of safety at the time, and LF hasn't done anything particularly egregious to force her to make a decision.

I imagine that's all about to change what with Sansa's upcoming nuptials to HtH and the threat of SR's demise. It is however weird that we haven't really gotten any reflection from Sansa about what Lysa said before she died. Because that's some really incriminating crap right there for LF.

So in conclusion, I don't really think Sansa is "buying" anything at the moment, she's sort of just going along with it and not letting it bother her. When push comes to shove, I'm willing to bet LF is a deadman.

Thank you, Tag. And yes, I like the idea that Sansa is taking a bit of a break right now, but that when push comes to shove, LF will be a goner.

[Newstar]

Thinking that Sansa will close her eyes to this reality - now that she's been given signs that something is definitely suspicious - doesn't jibe with her character development in the four books.

Well, no:

AGOT: Closes her eyes to Joffrey and Cersei's evil after Lady's execution and blames the affair on Arya, maintains her denial until Ned's execution

ACOK: Convinces herself that Dontos is her saviour, maintains that illusion until Petyr tells her the truth in ASOS

ASOS: Convinces herself that Margaery and the Tyrells are sweetness and light, refuses to listen to Dontos (more likely Littlefinger-via-Dontos) that the Tyrells are Lannisters with better PR, maintains that illusion (despite her disappointment about the Tyrells dropping her like a bad habit after the wedding) until Petyr tells her about Olenna's role in the PW

ASOS: Convinces herself that Sandor kissed her the night of Blackwater, maintains her denial until ???

AFFC: Convinces herself that Littlefinger's judgment is best, maintains her denial until ???

AFFC: Convinces herself that "Petyr," whom she considers her protector, her true friend, clever, brave, gentle, funny, etc. etc., is the real Littlefinger and not the sinister, calculating "Littlefinger," despite the fact that she's watched him order Dontos' death, watched him murder Lysa, and that he's convinced her to cover up Marillion's murder and subtly threatened her with more blood on her "pretty hands," maintains her denial until ???

You seeing a pattern here? Closing her eyes to reality despite all evidence to the contrary until she's forcibly shaken out of it is kind of Sansa's "thing," and that's just as true now as it was five books ago. All that she has managed to do is swap one blind spot (Joffrey/Dontos/the Tyrells) for another.

She's still compassionate and caring towards others, even though she's had to develop a more pragmatic and "hardened" approach to what she's faced in the Eyrie.

It didn't seem terribly compassionate and caring when she was wishing "they" could stomp out the Lords Declarant like ants. (That sounds a lot like something Cersei would say, doesn't it?). Or when she thought coldly and condescendingly of the maester that "he cares only for the boy" (like that isn't a good thing?), and "Father and I have larger concerns" (i.e. concerns other than Sweetrobin's, an innocent child's, health and wellbeing).

Heck, given what we've seen of Arya's behaviour, her many friendships, her attempts to help others, etc. etc. in Braavos, I'd say Arya comes across as the compassionate and caring one these days, and Arya's the sister who's training to be a baby assassin!

I don't see that "life in the Eyrie" is somehow to blame for Sansa's moral decline. Is a loss of compassion and a callous disregard for human life a form of altitude sickness?

And despite SR's bratty behaviour, he and Sansa have come to share a kind of understanding. The night LF tells Sansa that SR will die is moments after Sansa and the boy had just survived a daring crossing on the mountain. I don't think Sansa holds the same kind of fatalistic certainty about SR's fate, and she won't be keen to contribute to his demise.

This strikes me as wishful thinking. I mean, you can think this, but Alayne doesn't seem to be tending in that direction on her own. Something may bring her around, but, as I said, it would have to be something incredibly drastic, even more drastic than Ned's execution, I think, which is what it took for her to realize that Joffrey was bad news.

Alayne may be LF's creation, but it's disputable about who's really shaping that identity. So far, we've seen Alayne becoming a mother of sorts to SR, however reluctantly; bonding with Mya Stone and taking an interest in her romantic future; continuing to have thoughts of Sandor Clegane, along with Sansa's bastard brother, Jon Snow. Alayne is also not very happy about the marriage betrothal her father has made to HtH. Unless you stick to a very superficial reading, and ignore telling signs and symbols, Sansa is clearly the driving force behind Alayne. It's her "bastard brave" identity, the one that she can use to explore the kind of agency and sense of freedom that Sansa has not enjoyed for a long time.

And yet, Moon-Pale maiden has raised several textual examples of the disturbing signs as to Alayne being morally and psychologically compromised by Petyr's conditioning and increasingly identifying with him and his way of doing things, which you've ignored, probably because they go directly against your theory that Sansa's stint as Alayne is something that's mostly positive and empowering.

I would also point out that the same chapter where she thinks of how sweet it would be to see Jon Snow, where she thinks of the "ghost wolf," etc. etc., is the same chapter where she (referencing my earlier example) orders Sweetrobin dosed with sweetsleep and steamrolls the maester's objections without a second thought or hint of concern as to the boy, thinking instead "Father and I have larger concerns." She doesn't sound like a Stark here: to be honest, she sounds like Cersei. I don't see how matchmaking for Mya or dreaming of a kiss that never happened (something Littlefinger also did, although more than a kiss was involved) somehow outweigh that. Given that, I think the "very superficial reading," which focuses entirely on Sansa's Starkness without paying attention to what's happening to her morality or her identification with Petyr, is yours.

[Wouter]

I'd love to see a Sansa/Arya reunion!

I suspect we will get this, maybe as the very first Stark (partial) reunion. There is an SSM somewhere wherein Martin says that "Sansa and Arya have a lot to work out" (about their relationship and what happened between them in AGOT presumably, given the context of the question). The way it was phrased made me feel that he was indeed planning to write them "working things out".

As for the question about "Alayne" buying into LF or not, I think there is textual evidence to go both ways and it's often rather subtle. The last chapter indeed suggests she is going more LF's way, but then she also does not like the marriage plan and earlier she decided she would play LF's faithful daughter under the motto "lies and arbor gold". To what extent is the last chapter evidence of Sansa either really getting in her role (to make LF think she buys it) or actually buying it? I'm not sure, and I would really like Sansa's next chapter (of which GRRM felt it starts a new (sub) storyline, apparently) to find out her reaction to LF's proposals. The proof of the pudding being in the eating, I wonder especially how she will act toward Sweetrobyn from now on. Will she still be willing to have the sweetsleep administered? Will she willingly go along with the plan to woo Harry, or will she have misgivings (and act on them to the extent she would dare act on them)? I'm not sure either way, can't wait to find out though (please a Sansa chapter in the US paperback!).

One thing though, I don't think it's entirely fair to say Sansa had SR poisoned in her last AFFC chapter. She overruled the maester in having him given a dangerous medicine, but I don't think Sansa saw the poison aspect. A dangerous, risky treatment, sure, but not an actual attempt to poison him. When LF tells her that SR will die, she is surprised by the certainty in his statement. Consequently, Sansa did not consider it impossible that he would live to reach adulthood. If she realised that LF was consistently and purposefully feeding him sweetsleep, she wouldn't have been surprised by his matter-of-fact statement.

When she did have the sweetsleep administered, as Brash pointed out there was also a relatively good reason to make use of it. As it was, his shaking came close to killing him on the way down from the mountain and that's with the medicine in use.

That's not to say I'm confident Sansa could not be tempted to by the promise of a powerful role in the Vale (as presumed step towards power over Winterfell) combined with getting rid of a troublesome childlord, but I hope she will stop short of that and her initial reaction to the Harry plot certainly lacked enthusiasm. Martin's indication that a new phase in her story will start may well point to Sansa making a decision, one way or the other, in her very next chapter (though I guess it could also the arrival of, say, Harry the Heir or the Blackfish, or even an abduction attempt by the Mad Mouse).

[brashcandy]

Well, no:

AGOT: Closes her eyes to Joffrey and Cersei's evil after Lady's execution and blames the affair on Arya, maintains her denial until Ned's execution

Well no. Actually she gets upset with everyone involved, including Cersei and Joffrey, but after time passes, and Joffrey returns to his princely demeanour and her betrothal is still in place, she resolves to forgive him. I think we can all agree that early-AGOT Sansa is at her most naive and trusting state. Using it to prove a pattern of behaviour is just nonsensical in my opinion.

ACOK: Convinces herself that Dontos is her saviour, maintains that illusion until Petyr tells her the truth in ASOS

Nice spin, but missing some crucial details. Sansa knows that Dontos is not an ideal saviour, but he becomes one of the only people she can have some trust and hope in to help her escape the Lannisters. Let's remember that Sansa is the person who saves Dontos first - their relationship is only possible because of her intervention, and at the end, Dontos did come to believe himself that he was acting as a "true knight" no matter how pathetic and tragic his ending is. And LF is a manipulator, not a truth teller. He tries to disillusion Sansa and make her believe that he's the only one who was acting in her best interest. Dontos may have accepted money, but he also did try his best to protect Sansa at times and give her good advice.

ASOS: Convinces herself that Margaery and the Tyrells are sweetness and light, refuses to listen to Dontos (more likely Littlefinger-via-Dontos) that the Tyrells are Lannisters with better PR, maintains that illusion until Petyr tells her about Olenna's role in the PW

Nonsense. After much prodding and questioning, she confesses the truth to the Tyrells, decides that a marriage to Willas will be her best hope, and tries to build a relationship with her new family based on honesty and trust. That the Tyrells abandon her after Tyrion's wedding does not reflect on Sansa's decision to trust them. She was taking a chance and trying to secure a better outcome than relying on Dontos's promises. But didn't you just denigrate her for viewing Dontos as a saviour? Hmmm..

ASOS: Convinces herself that Sandor kissed her the night of Blackwater, maintains her denial until ???

Do you think by pulling these things out of context that it somehow helps your argument? Sansa's mismemory has everything to do with her complicated feelings towards Sandor Clegane and the overwhelming emotional tumult of that night. Please explain how any of what you've highlighted so far goes to show that Sansa would willingly and knowingly contribute to SR's death?

AFFC: Convinces herself that Littlefinger's judgment is best, maintains her denial until ???

AFFC: Convinces herself that "Petyr," whom she considers her protector, her true friend, clever, brave, gentle, funny, etc. etc., is the real Littlefinger and not the sinister, calculating "Littlefinger," despite the fact that she's watched him order Dontos' death, watched him murder Lysa, and that he's convinced her to cover up Marillion's murder and subtly threatened her with more blood on her "pretty hands," maintains her denial until ???

You seeing a pattern here?

No, not seeing a pattern. Just your usual tired attempts to take Sansa's story out of context and ignore textual evidence which contradicts your points. Sansa makes a very conscious decision to feed LF "lies and arbor gold" in the first chapter, and since then has had to play along with his games in order to survive. I'm going to say this one final time: his revelations at the end of AFFC are a game changer. He is now plotting against an innocent and wants to arrange a marriage that Sansa does not want. These are not things that Sansa can ignore. Whenever there's a crisis or a situation where she can lend a helping hand, she does so. We've seen it with Dontos, Lollys, the women at the Blackwater battle, with Sandor, with Margaery and with Mya and Dontos. That's the pattern that I expect to continue. What you've listed is pure and simple attempts at character denigration.

And yet, Moon-Pale maiden has raised several textual examples of the disturbing signs as to Alayne being morally and psychologically compromised by Petyr's conditioning and increasingly identifying with him and his way of doing things, which you've ignored, probably because they go directly against your theory that Sansa's stint as Alayne is something that's mostly positive and empowering.

Really? Last time I checked MPM said she didn't have time to cite the textual evidence. But by all means, bring it to my attention. I don't have a "theory" that Alayne is mostly positive and empowering. If you would pay attention to the textual evidence, you'd note that this is what Martin explicitly reveals in AFFC. I direct you to look at her thoughts during the mountain crossing in the final chapter. Please let me know if you need additional evidence.

I would also point out that the same chapter where she thinks of how sweet it would be to see Jon Snow, where she thinks of the "ghost wolf," etc. etc., is the same chapter where she orders Sweetrobin dosed with sweetsleep and steamrolls the maester's objection without a second thought or hint of concern as to the boy, thinking instead "Father and I have larger concerns." She doesn't sound like a Stark here: to be honest, she sounds like Cersei.

Well, you're welcome to your readings and whoever else you can manage to convince with them. Sansa had to make sure that SR did not another dangerous episode on the mountain and that he was presentable as Lord of the Eyrie on that descent. Given that she's actually trying to safeguard SR's position, whilst (as she's now aware) LF clearly isn't, it makes sense that we'll see her acting to do just that in the future in opposition to what LF wants. She was mistaken when she thought to herself that LF cared for the Lord, but for some reason, you and others want to act as though she said to herself: "yes, poison him for all I care!"

[Newstar]

He is now plotting against an innocent and wants to arrange a marriage that Sansa does not want. These are not things that Sansa can ignore.

Well, Sansa assisted in plotting against someone who, while not an "innocent," was certainly innocent of the act for which Sansa helped frame him, an act which condemned him to death, and she was married off against her will already and had a traumatic experience the last time she acted to reject another unwanted marriage (to Sweetrobin), a very much unwanted marriage to which she initially acquiesced, so I think it's a bit hasty to insist that Sansa can't "ignore" these things. She has already, to a lesser extent.

I see a lot of Sansa fans saying "Sansa can't," Sansa won't," "Sansa would never," etc. etc. and respectfully, unless they're GRRM posting under a pseudonym, they can't possibly know what she will or won't do, so I think it's a little funny to see them posting with such authority and confidence that "Sansa would never allow Littlefinger to harm Sweetrobin" or "Sansa would never agree to another unwanted marriage." Dude, you don't know that! I bet you thought at one time, just as Arya did in her innocence, that Sansa would never marry Tyrion (or someone like him), would never frame someone for a murder he didn't commit, would never let Littlefinger kiss her for any length of time, and yet somehow, these things happened.

Well, you're welcome to your readings and whoever else you can manage to convince with them. Sansa had to make sure that SR did not another dangerous episode on the mountain and that he was presentable as Lord of the Eyrie on that descent. Given that she's actually trying to safeguard SR's position, whilst (as she's now aware) LF clearly isn't, it makes sense that we'll see her acting to do just that in the future in opposition to what LF wants. She was mistaken when she thought to herself that LF cared for the Lord, but for some reason, you and others want to act as though she said to herself: "yes, poison him for all I care!"

Yeah, this is an...extremely generous reading of the passage with Sansa and Sweetrobin. Even if you can buy that the sweetsleep was absolutely a necessary evil and that there was no choice but to give Sweetrobin this drug to get him down the mountain safely (which is not true...it was the only politically expedient way to do so, but that's not the same thing), there's no evidence that Sansa thinks twice about ordering him dosed, that she cares about the maester's objections, that she feels anything but condescension for the maester's primary concern with "the boy" as opposed to "larger concerns," that she loses any sleep over the potential consequences to Sweetrobin, or that she is sufficiently concerned or troubled about the maester's words to follow up with Littlefinger later on. Indeed, she immediately puts it out of her head, too busy gossiping with Myranda and grilling Littlefinger about the swag he's brought back for her, no doubt. What was it you were saying about caring and compassion again?

[Winter Warden]

I think that Sansa/Alayne's current condition is very confusing and complicated.

A superficial reading could be used to justify either the position that being Alayne is leading to Sansa's empowerment or the position that Sansa is well on her way to being Littlefinger's lackey. In reality, there is abundant evidence that, while Sansa is becoming 'bastard brave,' cunning and learning to tell Littlefinger what he wants to hear (rather than the truth), she is also falling deep into Littlefinger's orbit, becoming more and more comfortable with his lies, deception, plotting and sexual abuse all through AFFC. At this point, I think that Sansa could swing either way, and I am not sure that I actually have a preference regarding which way she goes, so long as it's written well and interesting.

There are two additional remarks which I would like to make as well which relate to points raised earlier in the discussion. Firstly, to those who like to see Jon Snow in Alayne, this is a shrewd interpretation of her character, but one might just as easily see Littlefinger in her. As one of the lowliest lords in the Seven Kingdoms, Peter Baelish has always resented his low birth and sought to better his social position, often taking incredibly bold risks in order to do so (the duel with Brandon, murdering Jon Arryn, playing the Starks for fools, killing Lysa... etc...). He also excels at seeing through the airs the high lords put on -- much like Jon. The reality is that, in many respects, were it not for the deeply rooted decency Ned Stark taught all his children, Jon would not be all that different from Littlefinger, except in that Jon prefers to fight with swords, while Littlefinger fights with dragons (of the golden variety, of course). Currently, Alayne is walking a similar path to both of these characters. Which way she will go from here will depend on whether or not Littlefinger is able to twist around Sansa's moral compass to match his own.

Secondly, it has now been suggested a couple of times that Sansa was being wily in not mentioning to Littlefinger what Lysa said right before she died. However, as it happens, she did discuss what Lysa said with Littlefinger; it merely happened off screen:

"The things her aunt had said just before she fell still troubled Sansa greatly. “Ravings,” Petyr called them. “My wife was mad, you saw that for yourself.” And so she had. All I did was build a snow castle, and she meant to push me out the Moon Door. Petyr saved me. He loved my mother well, and . . .

And her? How could she doubt it? He had saved her.

He saved Alayne, his daughter, a voice within her whispered."

So, Lysa's words are not some secret weapon she's keeping back from Littlefinger. In fact, I am fairly sure that Sansa did not quite understand their implications, or chose not to understand their implications. To me, that is more worrying than encouraging, although, in all fairness, Sansa is still only thirteen years old. It might be that the implications of Lysa's ravings simply went right over her head.