The Stark that married into the Vale and the 'southron ambitions'

[lucaszc]

According to the books and the wiki, Lord Rickard's aunt, a Stark, has married a younger son from House Royce.

First question is: why would the Stark family marry a daughter of their house to a younger son from the Royces instead of one of their own bannermen or one of the other lord paramounts or their heirs?

Second question is: as seen in the books, everything below Moar Cailin is "south" for the northeners. So, were the 'southern ambitions' of the Starks really 'started' by Lord Rickard?

Thanks for your time. Any thoughts?

[TheButcherCrow]

According to the books and the wiki, Lord Rickard's aunt, a Stark, has married a younger son from House Royce.

First question is: why would the Stark family marry a daughter of their house to a younger son from the Royces instead of one of their own bannermen or one of the other lord paramounts or their heirs?

Second question is: as seen in the books, everything below Moar Cailin is "south" for the northeners. So, were the 'southern ambitions' of the Starks really 'started' by Lord Rickard?

Thanks for your time. Any thoughts?

I've got no good answer. It is always possible I suppose, that the Stark girl & the Royce boy met & fell in love. Lol, ikr? In a GRRM book? Surely not? But hey, I'm guessing it does happen occasionally..

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Great possibility I've seen is that the Stark who married the younger Royce of the junior branch was, uh, in a delicate condition when she did so and it was more or less a throwaway marriage. The daughter of a paramount lord would not be marrying the younger son of a junior branch. And doing that would also not serve any southron ambitions purposes, given that it'd make more sense to marry her to the oldest son of a Lannister, Arryn, Baratheon, Hightower, Tyrell, etc. So I'd say there's an alternate explanation for it.

[lucaszc]

Great possibility I've seen is that the Stark who married the younger Royce of the junior branch was, uh, in a delicate condition when she did so and it was more or less a throwaway marriage. The daughter of a paramount lord would not be marrying the younger son of a junior branch. And doing that would also not serve any southron ambitions purposes, given that it'd make more sense to marry her to the oldest son of a Lannister, Arryn, Baratheon, Hightower, Tyrell, etc. So I'd say there's an alternate explanation for it.

like the Lysa thing, you mean?

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

This is kind of random, but it strikes me that Lord Edwyle Stark's unnamed sister (the one whose descendants Catelyn wants Robb to name as his heirs instead of Jon) probably ended up in that particular marriage in the first place because she was already pregnant out of wedlock at the time.

She goes to marry a younger son of the junior branch of House Royce---given the status of House Stark, there was probably something hinky going on with that marriage. Marriage to an unattractive (politically, socially, etc.) groom is apparently a somewhat common tactic when a noblewoman is pregnant with someone's bastard (that's why Cersei assumes that Sylvia Santagar must have "a bastard in the belly" when she's sent to marry someone like Lord Estermont, who was incredibly old and already had a ton of heirs). The junior branch of House Royce held no lands before Littlefinger gave them the Gates of the Moon (which is also kind of odd, given that lands seem to be a prerequisite for founding a cadet branch in the first place, but I digress), and this was a younger son of that junior branch, which means that there was no chance of "their" firstborn child inheriting anything---which seems like it would be exactly what people would want if everybody involved knows the new bride is already pregnant with a non-Royce but a "deal" has been struck which involves passing that bastard child off as a legitimate Royce.

The junior-branch Royce son gets a wife who's far more highborn than any he'd likely be eligible for elsewise, but with no chance of any Royce holdings "accidentally" passing to the Stark lady's "secretly-a-bastard" firstborn child (as her husband would have had no shot at any holdings). The lady gets honorably married off, her child is not considered a bastard by society at large (and thus, is eligible for a greater range of marriage possibilities than otherwise), and House Stark gets to keep the whole scandal quiet.

Not quite sure how that factoid could be relevant (except for the literary irony---it would mean Catelyn was trying to get Robb to skip over a bastard Stark (Jon) in favor of (quite possibly) a technically-bastard Stark line). Also, there's a decent chance (given the timeline) that Lord Edwyle's sister will show up in "The She-Wolves of Winterfell", so we might see the events that led to this marriage play out there.

For that matter, though we don't have a full family tree, supposedly one of Lord Edwyle's sister's daughters married a Waynwood, and we know Jon Arryn's sister Alys, Harry the Heir's grandmother, married a Waynwood (Elys Waynwood), and it's entirely possible that Elys Waynwood---and therefore his descendants--was a descendant of the unnamed Stark lady (via the daughter who married the Waynwood). Which could mean, if the speculation that Timett of the Burned Men is actually Harry the Heir's cousin (the son of Harry's mother's older sister, who was carried off by Burned Men), then Timett might be a distant cousin of the Stark children. (Not to mention, it could mean that Catelyn was inadvertently trying to get Robb to name "Harry the Heir" as his own heir.)

I knew I remembered discussion on this topic.

[Tony Soprano]

Definitely. Rickard did have southern ambitions. The betrothal of Brandon to Cat pretty much proves it. The North is quite remote, and most of the time, northerners stay out of the games of the southern lords, but suddenly, Rickard wants to marry his heir to one southern lord, and sends his second son to be a ward of another.

All the High Lords, with the exception of Tywin, were friends. They were planning something, the betrothals and wards prove it. They were building alliances...perhaps they wanted to overthrow Aerys themselves?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

like the Lysa thing, you mean?

Yes! And Mr. Giant has helpfully provided the discussion to which I refer.

[Ser Leftwich]

:agree:

Is there any information on the age of Stark woman that married into the Vale?

If she was either sufficiently younger than Lord Edwyle that she had never married before he died or was a widow, it might have been the start of the "southern" match-making done by Lord Rickard.

tze explanation's is quite elegant.

[JoeJoe]

Those came about because of the situation with the she wolves of winterfell.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I saw a reference to this topic in a thread about the relationship between the North and the Vale, did a search, and a-ha! I am glad I found it! And it stands to reason that it was Tze who put forth such an elegant and plausible explanation as to why a daughter of a Great House should make such a mesalliance with a younger son of a junior, landless branch of the Royces. Tze, awesome as always! :thumbsup:

And I agree with Tze's reasoning. I think there is something strange afoot, and it is plausible that Ned's great-aunt who married so far beneath her was pregnant out of wedlock - or, at the very least, may have got herself a bad reputation that she couldn't easily shake and/or her father buy off.

That could also be a reason why this Lady Stark was married off so far away - into the Vale - perhaps it was a way of keeping a scandal that most of the Northern houses knew about, hushed up and sending her off to where no-one knew about it.

I also wonder why Alys Arryn - another daughter of a Great House - also married beneath her, to a second son. Was she unattractive or otherwise undesirable? None of the daughters that lived to marry, married very well either. I wonder what influences whether a woman gets to make a good marriage or not.

It would be funny if Harry the Heir really WAS in the running to be a Stark heir! A crackpot - this may play out somehow if he marries Sansa and they take control of the Vale and the North - it may be an excuse to maneuver the combined Stark/Hardyng House into ruling the united North and Vale depending on whether Rickon and/or Sweetrobin are around at the end of the books or not.

[lcd52]

According to the books and the wiki, Lord Rickard's aunt, a Stark, has married a younger son from House Royce.

First question is: why would the Stark family marry a daughter of their house to a younger son from the Royces instead of one of their own bannermen or one of the other lord paramounts or their heirs?

There had been issues between the North and the Vale in earlier times; maybe the marriage was proposed as an opening to better relations and starting with the lesser branch was seen as a more tactful way to achieve this? Remember, Lady Westerling had tried to marry Jeyne off to one of Ser Kevan's sons (a "lesser" branch, though he thought her too low born for his sons).

The Vale was more prominent in Westeros, so getting a lower ranking branch of a notable house to take a higher ranking bride would have been easier, and her children could aim higher in the Vale and in the Riverlands.

Second question is: as seen in the books, everything below Moar Cailin is "south" for the northeners. So, were the 'southern ambitions' of the Starks really 'started' by Lord Rickard?

Lady Dustin seems to blame the Southern Ambitions on Maester Wallys. If he had mentored Lord Rickard, as Maester Lewin did Eddard's Children and Cressen did Robert, Stannis and Renly; then maybe she's right.

Thanks for your time. Any thoughts?

We don't actually know if Lord Rickard's father made the match for his daughter, or if Lord Rickard made the match for his sister after their father's death. In any case, the maester would have had a lot of input.

[Lord Bresteil of the North]

This was probably at least 50 years ago. It could have been that her husband was a brother of Lord Royce and the junior branch was just being formed.

[Alia of the knife]

I saw a reference to this topic in a thread about the relationship between the North and the Vale, did a search, and a-ha! I am glad I found it! And it stands to reason that it was Tze who put forth such an elegant and plausible explanation as to why a daughter of a Great House should make such a mesalliance with a younger son of a junior, landless branch of the Royces. Tze, awesome as always! :thumbsup:

And I agree with Tze's reasoning. I think there is something strange afoot, and it is plausible that Ned's great-aunt who married so far beneath her was pregnant out of wedlock - or, at the very least, may have got herself a bad reputation that she couldn't easily shake and/or her father buy off.

That could also be a reason why this Lady Stark was married off so far away - into the Vale - perhaps it was a way of keeping a scandal that most of the Northern houses knew about, hushed up and sending her off to where no-one knew about it.

I also wonder why Alys Arryn - another daughter of a Great House - also married beneath her, to a second son. Was she unattractive or otherwise undesirable? None of the daughters that lived to marry, married very well either. I wonder what influences whether a woman gets to make a good marriage or not.

It would be funny if Harry the Heir really WAS in the running to be a Stark heir! A crackpot - this may play out somehow if he marries Sansa and they take control of the Vale and the North - it may be an excuse to maneuver the combined Stark/Hardyng House into ruling the united North and Vale depending on whether Rickon and/or Sweetrobin are around at the end of the books or not.

Now THAT would be irony.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

I've always wondered. What if these southron ambitions weren't so much Rickard's but Brandon's ambitions? Brandon wasn't far from becoming Lord of Winterfell. I could totally see Rickard taking the black to give Brandon's the reigns sometime after he married. It may explain why Benjen went to the night's watch. To replace Rickard leaving both Stark Men fulfilling the duties of someone else. Ned marrying Cat. Ben joining the Nights Watch.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Now THAT would be irony.

(Shameless plug alert ;))

You may interested in this, Alia--http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98676-royces-starks-and-waynwoods-corbrays-and-templetons-too/?fromsearch=1

[Alia of the knife]

(Shameless plug alert ;))

You may interested in this, Alia--http://

asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98676-

royces-starks-and-waynwoods-corbrays-and-templetons-too/?fromsearch=1

If it's from you Lady Gwyn, It's NEVER shameless :)

I'll check it out when I get home.