Heresy 42 (The Black Watch edition)

[Ponys123]

Perhaps he's saying that so you don't expect the expectable. Two books' worth of text is not nearly enough for an original resolution, but just about right for the cliche.

Plus, there's just too much subtle foreshadowing that way - Jon is a secret Targ. That detail alone makes Jon the chosen one. Then there's all the stuff with Mel starting to back him, the situation being set up for an ultimate confrontation, etc. Anything else would be deus ex machina, really.

[Efilnikufesin]

Perhaps he's saying that so you don't expect the expectable. Two books' worth of text is not nearly enough for an original resolution, but just about right for the cliche.

Plus, there's just too much subtle foreshadowing that way - Jon is a secret Targ. That detail alone makes Jon the chosen one. Then there's all the stuff with Mel starting to back him, the situation being set up for an ultimate confrontation, etc. Anything else would be deus ex machina, really.

If you want to be lured into the easy expectation of that you can. From what I have researched and hints given throughout the books, there is a much more complex web of events occurring than is led on at the surface. What I find brilliant about it that he seems like he is setting up the same old/same old thing, but there are sinister things happening where it is not expected and vice versa if you choose to step back and look at from a different perspective.

[Ponys123]

Don't take me wrong - I hate Jon with every fiber in my body. I hate him, because I've seen him a million times before. And nothing really suggests that he won't save the world. I dread that conclusion, but I've also accepted it.

If Jon was actually dead, I'd cry tears of pure joy.

[JonNonRegis]

So do you believe that the Others are evil incarnate; that the Children of the Forest will give Bran the knowledge of how to defeat the Others and that Jon is Azor Ahai, and will save Westeros astride one of Dany’s amazing dragons before taking his rightful place alongside her on the Iron Throne as Jon Targaryen First of his Name.

1. Evil incarnate is pitching it a bit strong. But I don't think they're going to sit down at a table with Jon, hammer out a new pact, scratch Ghost behind the ears, and toddle off to buy some cheese from Hobb at his new shop. They're killers; it's the most notable thing they've done so far, and as GRRM himself said recently, "they don't like us very much."

Normally, I would find this a cliche. Absolutely! However, I think the GRRM origin for them will show (going out on a limb here, I admit) why it is quite understandable that their basic nature would be profoundly destructive (to say the least). When you work that out, rather painstakingly, you no longer question their behavior or find them cliched (at least I don't).

2. The CotF aren't really essential to giving any keys. Defeating the Others, in my view, shouldn't require more knowledge, tools, or skills than Westeros already has (though dragons can't hurt). The Bran subplot is not really about that per se, although it will contribute to that.

3. I am in the Dany-is-AA camp (if anybody is -- people being reborn really does seem intensely like Robert Jordan, the trope-fucker, not George Martin, the trope-heckler).

4. I don't think Jon will marry Dany; am not sure whether he will ride any dragons and God, I sure hope he doesn't; and indeed, don't accept R+L=J at all (though I do think Lyanna simply has to be his mother).

In this last, I think I am actually more heretical than most heretics and I have a completely different candidate for Jon's father in mind, well supported by endless facts... though I'm not married to that interpretation either and certainly admit GRRM could go in any number of directions, if he wanted to, based on the short supply of hard facts.

I have, however, bet a friend $100 that Rhaegar is not the father, at even odds, and I don't expect to lose that bet.

Or do you heed GRRM:

…it was always my intention: to play with the reader’s expectations. Before I was a writer I was a voracious reader and I am still, and I have read many, many books with very predictable plots. As a reader, what I seek is a book that delights and surprises me. I want to not know what is gonna happen. For me, that’s the essence of storytelling and for this reason I want my readers to turn the pages with increasing fever: to know what happens next. There are a lot of expectations, mainly in the fantasy genre, which you have the hero and he is the chosen one, and he is always protected by his destiny. I didn’t want it for my books.

I not only heed that, I consider it suggestive that Jon will not play the ultra-cliched role described after "the fantasy genre."

[Efilnikufesin]

Don't take me wrong - I hate Jon with every fiber in my body. I hate him, because I've seen him a million times before. And nothing really suggests that he won't save the world. I dread that conclusion, but I've also accepted it.

If Jon was actually dead, I'd cry tears of pure joy.

Some others agree some not, but I think Jon is somewhat based upon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn, though there are arguments for Sandor, but possibly elements spread between the two or possibly others as well.

[ViennaGirl]

I see several ways for Jon not to be the cliche fantasy hero at the end. I have to admit, though, I wouldn't mind if he did end up being The Hero. Sometimes a story needs a hero or six or ten.. If he's R+L and he actually stays dead, that would be subversive. Maybe his purpose was solely to move the wildling plotline, and now that they're south, his story is done. Maybe a wildling will be the Last Hero, which wouldn't be the weirdest thing in the world. Maybe he'll be fully warged into Ghost from now on, and won't be back as a person. The story will end with Jon's POV in Ghost drifting further and further north, becoming less human, with a despairing Val by his side. I kind of like that one. Arawyn's end in LOTR has always haunted me - drifting alone through an endless empty landscape...

[Ponys123]

@JonNonRegis Who might Jon's father be, then, if not Rhaegar? You have quite some guts to claim that you can support your candidate, because Rhaegar's been set up with pretty much 100% certainty.

[Black Crow]

Some others agree some not, but I think Jon is somewhat based upon:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Cú_Chulainn, though there are arguments for Sandor, but possibly elements spread between the two or possibly others as well.

Sandor certainly offers parallels, or rather did until he took up grave-digging, but to my mind if anyone serves as a model for Jon its Cu Chulainn and you'll note the close (but unhappy) link to the Morrigan, who we also know is involved in the outcome.

[Black Crow]

Plus, there's just too much subtle foreshadowing that way - Jon is a secret Targ.

Which means nothing. Its a red herring revealed by the blue roses of his mother; Jon is Jon Stark not Jon Targaryen and belongs to the North and Winter, not to the dragons.

[Efilnikufesin]

Sandor certainly offers parallels, or rather did until he took up grave-digging, but to my mind if anyone serves as a model for Jon its Cu Chulainn and you'll note the close (but unhappy) link to the Morrigan, who we also know is involved in the outcome.

Oh I agree, one thing that stands out aside from Ygritte's and Mel's Morriganesque influences is that Cu Chulainn often went into a type of batte rage, which I think Jon does when he is in the practice yard with another NW member, have to look it up hold on.

[Little Wing]

Oh I agree, one thing that stands out aside from Ygritte's and Mel's Morriganesque influences is that Cu Chulainn often went into a type of batte rage, which I think Jon does when he is in the practice yard with another NW member, have to look it up hold on.

Yep, he goes berserkerish. The first time is in AGoT, when he's still new and green in the Watch and disillusioned by it. The other recruits that he beat in the practice yard bully him but he stays cool throughout. Until they insult his mother. Then he just loses it.

Gotta love Jon. :devil:

[ViennaGirl]

Oh I agree, one thing that stands out aside from Ygritte's and Mel's Morriganesque influences is that Cu Chulainn often went into a type of batte rage, which I think Jon does when he is in the practice yard with another NW member, have to look it up hold on.

Yes, he did go crazy on someone in the practice yard early on (maybe Grenn?) But I wouldn't say Jon is a battle rage fighter. In the battle for the Wall, he's on the tower with a bow, just shooting. I guess in the second part of the Wall battle, when he's on top of the Wall, he gets a little punchy with his pep rally, but I don't see him as a berserker fighter, like, maybe, Robert Baratheon in a melee. But yes to Cu Chulainn anyway, because it's a great theory.

[ViennaGirl]

@Little Wing, our posts crossed. I wasn't responding to your use of berserker!

[Little Wing]

Yeah - he's both. He's got a cool head on his shoulders. But he can turn on you in a flash just as well... Gotta be careful not to provoke that one :cool4:

ETA: No worries ViennaGirl - we kinda agree, I think ^_^ in that it's not his predominant style of fighting, but he can go berserker if provoked... that one time (not the one I was referring to earlier but later on, when he's LC, I think), he even blacked out, didn't remember parts of what happened...

[theriveryeti]

Don't take me wrong - I hate Jon with every fiber in my body. I hate him, because I've seen him a million times before. And nothing really suggests that he won't save the world. I dread that conclusion, but I've also accepted it.

If Jon was actually dead, I'd cry tears of pure joy.

I don't think a heroic ending involving Jon would negate the entire body of work. Artificially making everything the opposite of what you'd expect is just as silly as a fairy tale ending. Jon somehow learning about and maybe confronting the Others could be cool if done well, and GRRM has done a lot well.

On another note, the last scene of Season 2 of the TV show must drive you Heresy guys nuts..! (I just re-watched it yesterday and kind of cringed).

[redriver]

The second time,he's fighting Iron Emmet in practise and getting his arse handed to him.Jon then remembers playing at swords with Robb,who tells him he can never be Lord of Winterfell.Next thing Jon is having to be pulled of a prostrate Iron Emmet.

[ViennaGirl]

I don't think a heroic ending involving Jon would negate the entire body of work. Artificially making everything the opposite of what you'd expect is just as silly as a fairy tale ending. Jon somehow learning about and maybe confronting the Others could be cool if done well, and GRRM has done a lot well.

I totally agree. I think Jon can be a hero without being the guy at the end with the throne and the girl and the dragons.

[Black Crow]

The second time,he's fighting Iron Emmet in practise and getting his arse handed to him.Jon then remembers playing at swords with Robb,who tells him he can never be Lord of Winterfell.Next thing Jon is having to be pulled of a prostrate Iron Emmet.

Yep, that's the one, but there's other stuff as well. His defence of the Wall for example parallels Cu Chulainn's defence of Ulster at the Ford, and as to being the hero without gaining the throne, that powerful last image of the dying Cu Chulainn tied to a post to stop him falling down, and his enemies afraid to approach him until the Morrigan (as a crow) lands on his shoulder and starts eating his face...

I'm not predicting its necessarily going to end that way but we have been promised a bittersweet ending.

[Little Wing]

The second time,he's fighting Iron Emmet in practise and getting his arse handed to him.Jon then remembers playing at swords with Robb,who tells him he can never be Lord of Winterfell.Next thing Jon is having to be pulled of a prostrate Iron Emmet.

Ah, yes - that's the one I was referring to, when he blacks out. Thanks!

[Efilnikufesin]

The second time,he's fighting Iron Emmet in practise and getting his arse handed to him.Jon then remembers playing at swords with Robb,who tells him he can never be Lord of Winterfell.Next thing Jon is having to be pulled of a prostrate Iron Emmet.

Thanks, in the middle of trying to dig my car out and look for the chapter during breaks, fogging up my laptop screen as I type. 30", soo fun to dig out of.