Comics VI: Sinister Six

[Lady Octarina]

Superior Spider-Man #8: surprisingly adorable. Curious as to how this will all unfold.

Age of Ultron #6: that was... unexpected.

Beheaded Cap, dead Pym, and Wolverine being right, wow. Anyway, still curious to see where the Hank Pym we'll have post-AoU comes from.

Didn't like the art that much, though, except for the scenes in the future.

Captain America, Captain Marvel, and Cable and X-Force had consistently good issues, as usual, but nothing to add, really, except that I loved how Cap

killed Zola's annoying daughter

, and Forge & Nemesis are now my number 1 brotp. :cheers:

[Winterfell is Burning]

Daredevil #25- Predictably, it wins this week, with a great fight and solid characterization.

As for the rest, it was mostly a slow week, with nothing too bad, but not much worthy of note.

[Nephrite]

Another "creative" change.

I'm gonna miss this. I don't think I learned about dodging my entire life as much as I did from these columns.

And I love how the column just cuts off after the Card question. Like they were doing this live and when CBR brought up that old homophobic chestnut, Harras just ripped his mike off and walked away muttering "I don't need this shit."

Not even a "Loved doing this insencere propaganda for you! See you at NY Comicon!"

But, I can kind of understand them. Justifying your company policies is weird. So Ordway isn't working for them. Okay. I don't think whoever is in charge of Disney is explaining to people why they hired Abrams for Star Wars and not some old warhorse. Honestly, I hate that we even know who DiDio, Harras and Quesada are. These people should be invisible.

Other than that, I wouldn't hire Ordway anyway (actually I wouldn't hire 70 percent of their art staff and I would fire ALL their colorists). His style is outdated. Sure it was bees knees. Back in 1993. Styles change with times and influences. People like their Jim Lee inspired shit these days. It's a business after all.

[Sci-2]

Spoilers for AoU, but I think we called it on Hank Pym. -> Debrief: BENDIS on Wolverine's Decision

Bendis: Some choices were made for the character over the course of many, many years. Even once you create Ultron and Ultron is an ongoing concern, that kind of changes the way people perceive him as an A-lister or whatnot. And then the whole stuff that Jim Shooter did, with him slapping Jan around, it does taint the character. It's the way you treat people in real life. If you find out someone did something like that in real life, you don't really talk to them anymore...

So is part of the goal of this story maybe somehow rehabbing the character?

[Ouroboros]

What some people consider taint, others consider a unique and interesting character development. Jim Shooter was a hack writer and that story line was awful but Pym and the Wasp have had interesting plot lines built directly on that story-line. Removing it from their history is a very dubious move. Like removing Tony's alcoholism or the Hulk's childhood trauma. It could be a good thing, it could be a mistake.

[red snow]

Another "creative" change.

I'm gonna miss this. I don't think I learned about dodging my entire life as much as I did from these columns.

And I love how the column just cuts off after the Card question. Like they were doing this live and when CBR brought up that old homophobic chestnut, Harras just ripped his mike off and walked away muttering "I don't need this shit."

Not even a "Loved doing this insencere propaganda for you! See you at NY Comicon!"

But, I can kind of understand them. Justifying your company policies is weird. So Ordway isn't working for them. Okay. I don't think whoever is in charge of Disney is explaining to people why they hired Abrams for Star Wars and not some old warhorse. Honestly, I hate that we even know who DiDio, Harras and Quesada are. These people should be invisible.

Other than that, I wouldn't hire Ordway anyway (actually I wouldn't hire 70 percent of their art staff and I would fire ALL their colorists). His style is outdated. Sure it was bees knees. Back in 1993. Styles change with times and influences. People like their Jim Lee inspired shit these days. It's a business after all.

Looks like another pissy fit from Harras. Maybe he can do a new column called "comic Harrassment"?

The "what events happened" answer was pure bullshit too. At least the Marvel column are willing to answer all questions. Has DC stopped doing the newsarama monthly sales discussion too? Because they aren't in top anymore?

I know it sounds harsh but if Jerry Ordway still feels he's so good then maybe he should do something creator owned at Image? The page rate upfront isn't great but if there's still a market out there for him then he should still make money out of it. Maybe he has been marginalised at DC but I guess they have a reason for it. If they stuck to the same arstists and writers they could become "stale" (we're seeing this with the writers). I think comics is like a lot of the entertainment business in that you have your time. You may not get worse but the audience simply moves on. There's plenty of comedians, musicians and unfortunately older actresses who fall prey to this. It's the same with comic art. It's tough when it's your sole income but maybe he needs to be realisitic about the situation and not sound like he's entitled to money from DC?

What some people consider taint, others consider a unique and interesting character development. Jim Shooter was a hack writer and that story line was awful but Pym and the Wasp have had interesting plot lines built directly on that story-line. Removing it from their history is a very dubious move. Like removing Tony's alcoholism or the Hulk's childhood trauma. It could be a good thing, it could be a mistake.

Marvel and especially DC don't give a damn about character development and interesting plot lines. The bottom line is can we make a film out of this character and can we sell merchandise based on this character? A wife beater is not marketable and potentially poison to any characters associated with him.

The Ultron angle is bullshit though. That isn't the reason they need to retcon him it's the wife beating. Marvel and DC are swarming with characters that have accidentally/inadvertently created villains and they don't need to retcon them.

It is kind of worrying how the X-men's solution to people being a problem is to go back in time and change that character's fate. I mean this from the character's POV not the editorial.

[Ouroboros]

Spider-Man sells fine, and he smacked around MJ while she was pregnant. If 'wife beating' was commercial poison, the character would have become toxic in the 90s. The Hangover would have crashed and burned since it featured a convicted rapist quite prominently too.

Ant-Man doesn't sell because he's cheesy and unknown, not because of a single issue story from the 70s. He's commercial poison because when asked, 'Do you know who Ant-Man is?' the response is 'no, sounds dumb', not 'isn't he a wife beater?'

Only the comic book readers know or care about the 'wife beater' thing, and most comic book readers don't even care about that either. The same reason Ant-Man isn't popular is the same reason Aquaman isn't popular. They have goofy costumes and powers. No one cares about issue number whatever, about stories written by Kurt Busiek or Peter David. He shrinks and talks to ants? Sounds stupid. Oh he can swim good and talk to fish? sound stupid. That is the reason they never catch on when their contemporaries in the Justice League and the Avengers are popular. Aquaman is in a good spot right now after decades of being shat on by DC editorial because Geoff Johns is their biggest star and they decided to give him a shot. That is all you need to rehibiltate -any- character. Not universal retcons or white washing. You find a (comic book) famous creative team invested in the character, who will draw in an audience, and you let them work on their book with creative freedom. It has made Aquaman a success, it has made Hawkeye a success. Hell, that method made the X-Men a huge franchise after a period where they were considered -lamer- than Ant-Man. And that is all you would need to do to 'fix' Ant-Man. Get a good team together, put out a good product, and spruik the hell out of it.

[Nephrite]

Looks like another pissy fit from Harras.

In my mind he flipped the table over and the shoved the middle finger at the guy doing the interview. and punched the wall on the way out.

The "what events happened" answer was pure bullshit too.

It was good, but not as good as that Gail Simone answer a few months back.

At least the Marvel column are willing to answer all questions.

Eh, they do get soft-balled a lot. Probably cause they don't get as many public walkouts like DC does lately. But they do shit, but CBR rarely calls them out for it.

And no company wants to talk about their internal shit, yet at times it seems these interviews are just about that.

It feels like I'm coming to their defense after months of bitching about them, but I can see their point. As always it's their execution that's dumb.

Maybe he has been marginalised at DC but I guess they have a reason for it. If they stuck to the same arstists and writers they could become "stale" (we're seeing this with the writers).

Yeah, DC getsenough crap about "house style" that you'd think they force everyone to draw like Neal Adams and Ordway is like a posterboy for that, let's call it American realism style.

I think comics is like a lot of the entertainment business in that you have your time. You may not get worse but the audience simply moves on. There's plenty of comedians, musicians and unfortunately older actresses who fall prey to this. It's the same with comic art. It's tough when it's your sole income but maybe he needs to be realisitic about the situation and not sound like he's entitled to money from DC?

Yeah, he could've handled this in a lot of ways besides a blog post. Yeah, he was exclusive to DC, but just sitting on your ass waiting for them to send you scripts... shit, try pitching something. I don't know how it all went down, but at least he had medical & dental in an industry where most don't.

The Ultron angle is bullshit though. That isn't the reason they need to retcon him it's the wife beating. Marvel and DC are swarming with characters that have accidentally/inadvertently created villains and they don't need to retcon them.

Yes, if anything that would make for a pretty sweet twist in a movie series that so far has been pretty fucking straightforward.

Spider-Man sells fine, and he smacked around MJ while she was pregnant.

Tell me about this pregnancy. I have no memory of it.

:D

And Spidey's sales were at Aquaman levels, before they decided to kill him and replace him with a far superior version.

If 'wife beating' was commercial poison, the character would have become toxic in the 90s.

Disney wasn't involved in the 90's. It may not be justified, but they can be paranoid about these things. And delusional. These people do believe that movies bring in new readers.

[Lady Octarina]

Spider-Man sells fine, and he smacked around MJ while she was pregnant. If 'wife beating' was commercial poison, the character would have become toxic in the 90s. The Hangover would have crashed and burned since it featured a convicted rapist quite prominently too.

Ant-Man doesn't sell because he's cheesy and unknown, not because of a single issue story from the 70s. He's commercial poison because when asked, 'Do you know who Ant-Man is?' the response is 'no, sounds dumb', not 'isn't he a wife beater?'

There was a discussion in Brevoort's tumblr not that long ago about why everyone remembers when Pym beat his wife, but not when other characters did the same, and the answer is pretty much that he hasn't had many memorable moments in 50 years, unlike Spidey or Reed Richards. About the same time Brevoort swore they're not going to forget anything on Pym's history, which, of course, is different from saying the wife-beating moment won't be retconned somehow, a point no one in Marvel has touched so far. Personally, especially after AoU #6, I still think they're going to bring to 616 a version of the character that never went Yellow Jacket, and probably never will.

Honestly, though, I can't understand why they're insisting on bringing Pym to the cinematic universe, not to mention the cartoons. He's not a popular character, has never been, and, as you say, his are such stupid powers that it makes no sense to have him. They already have a scientist and an engineer, why Pym, when there are so many better characters to choose from? And, if they want an Ant-Man movie, why not use Scott Lang and use his background as a thief to add something "new" to those stories?

[red snow]

I think that Octarina nailed the wife beater thing in that nothing else has really happened to him. All the other characters have so much stuff going on it's easier to forget it. Which also boils down to what Ouroboros is saying - the character is a bit lame. Millar didn't do anyone any favours by reminding us of the wife-beating in the ultimates which despite being in another universe was MArvel's number one title at the time.

I think the attitude is to start fresh with Hank Pym and someone at Marvel/Disney thinks a good start is to remove the thing that defines him in the comic. Then they can see if they can get the character to work.

I agree it would be easier to just try one of the other ant-men but Marvel has always hated the idea of legacy characters thinking it ages their universe too much.

Yeah, he could've handled this in a lot of ways besides a blog post. Yeah, he was exclusive to DC, but just sitting on your ass waiting for them to send you scripts... shit, try pitching something. I don't know how it all went down, but at least he had medical & dental in an industry where most don't.

He probably also gets a flat fee regardless of whether he produces any work. Claremont has been happily cashing a check at Marvel for 2 years without writing a thing. They could massage their egos and think of it as Marvel/DC doesn't want them working for the competition. Marvel has probably done the world a favour with Claremont as his recent output has been forgettable and his DC stuff worse.

[Nephrite]

Honestly, though, I can't understand why they're insisting on bringing Pym to the cinematic universe, not to mention the cartoons. He's not a popular character, has never been, and, as you say, his are such stupid powers that it makes no sense to have him.

Eh, they do like to stroke their nostalgia. And if I remember corrctly Pym was their in comics when they thawed out Captain America. Honestly I don't remember really. Captain America is right down there with Pym as far as my personal popularity chart goes. Was he naked, was there beer? Where di I get this tattoo?

And honestly, if popularity was a factor than we wouldn't really see many of these guys in movies. Like Purple Arrow is big in any sense of the word. Cause when you take out the top 5-6 characters Marvel has there's a pretty big drop till you get to guys like Cyclops and etc. Hell, Fantastic Four have been 3rd tier for as long as I remember.

I think that Octarina nailed the wife beater thing in that nothing else has really happened to him. All the other characters have so much stuff going on it's easier to forget it.

Pym suffers from Johnny Storm syndrome, the fact that every writer that comes along has to write his redemption. It's typical of comics. You find out one thing about the character and you beat it into the ground. Was that a pun? Sorry.

Like Batman is always flashing to pearls. Green Arrow is always calling everyone Nazis. Huntress is religious. It's lazy shorthand, and gets you out of actually writing.

Shit, he did more redeeming than any character ever. And at the end of the cycle it starts again. Fuck, I bet we'll sooner see Magneto having coffee with Red Skull than Pym being allowed to do something besides redemptions.

That's why I was hoping that Waid would get to work on him. His 2-3 appearances in Daredevil were wuite fun and showed that there's more to him than just that one panel.