Dumptruck Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Yes and no. They were both present, but Cat tried to hide Jon away as much as possible--as far as we are aware, Tyrion was the only one to actually see Jon and know that he was Jon.As to seeing Rhaegar in Jon, it's not limited to looks alone. It goes back to the nature vs. nurture debate: it's quite possible that Jon exhibits the same natural leadership abilities that Rhaegar seems to have possessed. If Jaime were to come to the Wall with an idea that maybe Jon and Rhaegar are related (big IF I know, just kind of being a Devil's Advocate), then Jaime would be one of only three people currently alive (the others being Barristan and JonCon) who knew Rhaegar enough to be able to determine that Jon shares personality traits with Rhaegar (once again, if this is even the case--not saying I believe it, just giving examples beyond pure looks as to how someone could "see Rhaegar in Jon")No they talk when Jaime chastises Jon about taking the Black,never having known a woman and never using a sword. Unless I'm crossing the show and the books??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogdevil Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Not my theory. I read about it in this post:http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry4046915I like it, even if the timeline is a little off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseHB Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Remember when Bran in one of the early books cant recall exactly which one, he had a dream of Jaime and the Hound fighting a faceless knight? We all know wierd dreams in this series have hidden meaning, well what if Jaime heads North, but Sandor if he is the gravedigger has left the quiet isle and has been secretly stalking Brienne since she left the quiet isle and rescues Brienne and Jaime from the BWB and they all head to the Vale? Sometime in WOW Cersei somehow finds out that Sansa has been in the Vale all this time and sends Robert Strong aka Gregor Clegane to kill Sansa? Where Jaime, Sandor and Brienne all head to the Vale and encounter UnGregor in the Vale where an epic battle ensues Brienne is killed in the battle after sacrificing herself for Jaime to block a killing blow by UnGregor and as Brienne falls into Jaime's hands Sandor delivers a killing blow to UnGregor by chopping his head off, and runs in to the Vale to find Sansa as regent of the Vale after she beat Littlefinger at the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Remember when Bran in one of the early books cant recall exactly which one, he had a dream of Jaime and the Hound fighting a faceless knight? We all know wierd dreams in this series have hidden meaning, well what if Jaime heads North, but Sandor if he is the gravedigger has left the quiet isle and has been secretly stalking Brienne since she left the quiet isle and rescues Brienne and Jaime from the BWB and they all head to the Vale? Sometime in WOW Cersei somehow finds out that Sansa has been in the Vale all this time and sends Robert Strong aka Gregor Clegane to kill Sansa? Where Jaime, Sandor and Brienne all head to the Vale and encounter UnGregor in the Vale where an epic battle ensues Brienne is killed in the battle after sacrificing herself for Jaime to block a killing blow by UnGregor and as Brienne falls into Jaime's hands Sandor delivers a killing blow to UnGregor by chopping his head off, and runs in to the Vale to find Sansa as regent of the Vale after she beat Littlefinger at the game?I believe, like others that Oberyn was the Sun not Jaime. This makes sense because both Oberyn and the Hound were obsessed with killing Gregor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the sword in the night Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Jamie prediction after just rereading SoS!!! Remember his dream where he's in a cave in the bowels of Casterly Rock? It's really creepy and he sees all those ghosts?I think that when Dany takes over, she'll lock him down there with Brienne, probably in aDoS, as punishment for killing her father. Once down there, he'll have to face his ghosts and all of his evil deeds. This of course will be a heartbreak to us as he's no doubt going to be awesome in WoW. Heartbreak GRRM-style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmgross25 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Jon isn't strikly stark looking him and Aegon share similar body characteristic and so do Jon and dany. They are all slight and short of height except Aegon who hasn't finisted growing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 But Jon and Dany are younger than Aegon, so they should grow longer than Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Cheops Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Jon isn't strikly stark looking him and Aegon share similar body characteristic and so do Jon and dany. They are all slight and short of height except Aegon who hasn't finisted growing Actually he looks so much like a Stark that it pisses Cat off because he looks more like a Stark than any of her children except Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmgross25 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 If the opinion of Pyp and Grenn is any indication, Jon was losing the support of the average Joe as well. They were disillusioned with the man they made Lord Commander, and they were Jon's friends. But that doesn't matter for a comparison with Rhaegar. Reading about Jon and Rhaegar, I'd say that Rhaegar had a charisma that Jon lacked. Rhaegar read some books and decided that he had to be a knight in shining armor, a leader of men. Jon walked around dejectedly waiting for execution, it was Sam who came up with the idea to save him by making him their leader. Rhaegar had a talent for making people see him as he wanted to be seen, Jon does not, and he doesn't care how people see him. In that he is closer to Stannis than to Rhaegar.Whatever Jon and Jaime will do, I don't see Jaime pledging his sword to Jon, not even if he finds out that Jon is Rhaegar's son. Such a reveal will not help Jon as much as it will destroy Rhaegar's reputation. Most Westerosi never believed that Rhaegar was involved in Lyanna's disappearance - or that he was affected by the madness and delusions that haunted House Targaryen. If a son of Rhaegar and Lyanna shows up, they will realize that Rhaegar caused the rebellion. And once they start looking, they'll realize that he did not escape the Targaryen madness at all - he was just better at hiding it.Anyway, as long as Tommen and Myrcella live, Jaime will be bound to them as their King's Guard, and possibly even as their regent. I don't think he'll pledge himself to another king when Tommen and Myrcella die. I think he'd rather claim Casterly Rock for himself if that happened, and try to avenge their deaths. Whether Myrcella and Tommen live or die, I don't see an alliance with Jon. They share no common goals, and Jon is allied with Stannis who is no Lannister ally. Are you Crazy? When jon first came to the wall, the recuits and most the men on the watch didn't like Jon. It was after his talk with Doyne that change Jon. Made him open up and then the other boys came to like him and even respect him. Look at what happened in the Shield hall, the wildlings went wild. A son of Winterfell, the other enemy of the wildlings for 8,000 yrs, has made a peace with them and let them through the wall. Before they even went through the wall men were pledging their swords to him. Jon has away of inspiring loyality. Tormand took to Jon right away. Before Tormand even knew anything about Jon only that he was a Stark, yet he was defending him from the Lord of Bones. Another thing the realm knows that Rheagar stole Lyanna. The heart of Roberts rebellion for the starks at least was to avenge the deaths of Rickon and Brandon Stark. For Robert it was for Lyanna. Ned bore Rheagar no ill will it was Aerys that he had a beef with. Ned even thought highly of Rheagar. Selmy knows that Rheagar stole Lyanna and he still thinks that he would have been a great king. Jon is sullen and so was Rheagar. Selmy describes his as having a deep sense of duty and that he was thoughtful and that he did everything well. Jon is the same way, the world sets him tasks and he does them. He takes no joy from them, but as they are his duties he will do them. The best leaders are those that don't reach for power but power is thrust on them. Jon is a prime example of that statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmgross25 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Actually he looks so much like a Stark that it pisses Cat off because he looks more like a Stark than any of her children except Arya. Yeah his face looks like a Stark with the brown hair and dark grey eyes. But look at the men in the crypts and the decriptions of physical bodies chararteristics. Slender, graceful, short of stature and his pointy long face. There are no real physical decriptions of Rheagar, except that he has silver gold hair and dark purple eyes and that he has long slender fingers. I have a theory that Mance is Rheagar with a new face. They share physical characters. They are both middle height, they both have pointy faces and they both are graceful and slender. Plus you can never change your voice and thats one voice that has hunted Jamies dreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loralei Pyke Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Are you Crazy? When jon first came to the wall, the recuits and most the men on the watch didn't like Jon. It was after his talk with Doyne that change Jon. Made him open up and then the other boys came to like him and even respect him. Look at what happened in the Shield hall, the wildlings went wild. A son of Winterfell, the other enemy of the wildlings for 8,000 yrs, has made a peace with them and let them through the wall. Before they even went through the wall men were pledging their swords to him. Jon has away of inspiring loyality. Tormand took to Jon right away. Before Tormand even knew anything about Jon only that he was a Stark, yet he was defending him from the Lord of Bones. Another thing the realm knows that Rheagar stole Lyanna. The heart of Roberts rebellion for the starks at least was to avenge the deaths of Rickon and Brandon Stark. For Robert it was for Lyanna. Ned bore Rheagar no ill will it was Aerys that he had a beef with. Ned even thought highly of Rheagar. Selmy knows that Rheagar stole Lyanna and he still thinks that he would have been a great king. Jon is sullen and so was Rheagar. Selmy describes his as having a deep sense of duty and that he was thoughtful and that he did everything well. Jon is the same way, the world sets him tasks and he does them. He takes no joy from them, but as they are his duties he will do them. The best leaders are those that don't reach for power but power is thrust on them. Jon is a prime example of that statement. I agree - I think that all of Jon's arc has been about leadership and leadership development - "kill the boy, and let the man be born" (IIRC) Same with Dany. We are watching both of them grown into competent and courageous leaders - complete with mistakes along the way. Leaders of WHAT? - that is the question. As regards Jaime, I believe his arc is one of redemption and purification. He was so serious about all of his conflicting vows that I believe he broke down into a nihilistic state when they could not be reconciled - if he couldn't follow all of his vows, then he wasn't going to care about any of them. I think that he was profoundly affected by Brienne and disaffected by Cersei, and that he is now in the process of recommitting to vows that have a more refined and functional theme (i.e. justice) vs. those that were more specific (protect the King at all costs, even if he is going to murder his whole capitol city and cook a father alive while making his son watch). When the Others come, Jaime will be part of the force that protects human life. Hopefully, that battle will be in the North and not all the way to the South - I would like to see the North survive the end of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montey14 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 And didn't they already meet back in the first book in Winterfell...? they met on the tv show....but never in the books..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montey14 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I agree - I think that all of Jon's arc has been about leadership and leadership development - "kill the boy, and let the man be born" (IIRC) Same with Dany. We are watching both of them grown into competent and courageous leaders - complete with mistakes along the way. Leaders of WHAT? - that is the question. As regards Jaime, I believe his arc is one of redemption and purification. He was so serious about all of his conflicting vows that I believe he broke down into a nihilistic state when they could not be reconciled - if he couldn't follow all of his vows, then he wasn't going to care about any of them. I think that he was profoundly affected by Brienne and disaffected by Cersei, and that he is now in the process of recommitting to vows that have a more refined and functional theme (i.e. justice) vs. those that were more specific (protect the King at all costs, even if he is going to murder his whole capitol city and cook a father alive while making his son watch). When the Others come, Jaime will be part of the force that protects human life. Hopefully, that battle will be in the North and not all the way to the South - I would like to see the North survive the end of the series. I think Jamie had a very clear sense of justice and what was right ....he did save Kings Landing from being burnt to a cinder....it was the fact that he was vilified for it because he ahd to kill Ayres in the process that sets him on his wrong path....he was hailed as a great swordsman but never a great night after that.....but when they took his hand.....that was the begining of his path to redemption.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montey14 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Yeah his face looks like a Stark with the brown hair and dark grey eyes. But look at the men in the crypts and the decriptions of physical bodies chararteristics. Slender, graceful, short of stature and his pointy long face. There are no real physical decriptions of Rheagar, except that he has silver gold hair and dark purple eyes and that he has long slender fingers. I have a theory that Mance is Rheagar with a new face. They share physical characters. They are both middle height, they both have pointy faces and they both are graceful and slender. Plus you can never change your voice and thats one voice that has hunted Jamies dreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montey14 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I don't think GGRM wanted there to be any doubt about Rheagar.....he got a big war hammer through his chest and he is dead....nothing in 5 books would give any hint that somehow Rheagar survived his battle with Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urien the Ragged Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Yeah, Rhaegar is dead, Robert wouldnt have left him breathing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Rhaegar is described as being so beautiful that he made Jaime who looked like half a god appear like a pig or something in comparison. Also Rhaegar's described as tall. The Starks are of average height by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boy and Girl Wadish Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 I think there's no reason for Jaime to go north if he doesn't have Sansa with him, in line with the promise he made to Catelyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YuriP Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 I hope Jamie dies by LS. He already escaped too often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tini Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 I hope Jamie dies by LS. He already escaped too often. That applies to Lady Stoneheart even more. Stoneheart didn't even escape death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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