Do you think Martin justifies slavery in ADWD?

[Porcelain Steel]

6. It is another chapter in Dany's internal struggle between mercy and force (mother and dragon)

.........

I just want to tell you how much I enjoy reading your posts on Dany's developement-IMO, this is an insightful and refreshing way to look at the character.

Also, as far as GRRM justifying slavery in DWD-I know we've been discussing Dany's arc, but Tyrion's arc in this novel looks at slavery as well, and certainly does not paint it in a great light-so one could conclude from that alone that he's not trying to illustrate that slavery is justified,and in fact isn't so much using Dany's arc to illustrate something about slavery, but rather trying to use slavery to illustrate something about Dany and her arc.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

no, off course not.

are you from the south ?

[total1402]

no, off course not.

are you from the south ?

Of America? No. You're way off. I wasn't saying that I agreed with that notion that slavery is good myself I just felt at the time that you could draw that conclusion from reading the text. Obviously that conclusion clashed with my own personal views.

[Beets]

I really don't think that this was what Martin intended. He's not an evil guy, and I think that as opposed to 'slavery is good, change is bad' the message of Dany's arc was meant to be 'don't expect things to be easy' or 'doing good things can be super hard most of the time'.

The argument with Daxos just shows that Daxos is good with words (and that Dany's an idiot), and the Yunkai assembling an adequate fighting force simply shows that the moral side doesn't always have the advantage. Dany goes in, guns blazing, expecting to win. I think you expected an easy win for her as well, but just because Dany has the moral high ground doesn't mean that Martin's trying to prove that the immorality is the way to go.

[Florina Laufeyson]

think you expected an easy win for her as well,

Yarp.

It just seems to me that some people are very angry because GRRM was kind enough to NOT make Dany a Mary Sue.

The whole instance with Xaro and the slavery bit is to show that you cant always win by taking a moral highground.

[Kahl Trollo]

What a funny topic this one is :)

Does Martin support slavery... lol... no. I don't think he does at all. Although his example of the slavers bay society is a little off base when compared to our history (but hey, it's his world - his rules...) I do appreciate the point of views he is expressing.

Where it seems to get muddled into 'OMFG SLAVERY SUPPORT!' Is mainly due to America's experiences and history. Although personally I think Martin kinda square pegs his point on a few levels - the citizens POV draws a parallel to cultures like early Rome, and what happens when someone comes in with the modern-fantasy hero notion of todays 'SLAVERY OMG!' viewpoint and applies their own moral viewpoint on a culture more or less on a whim without a plan of forethought.

Slavery existed within Rome, and yet there were laws in ways a slave could be (or not be) treated - a household slave to a noble house had a much better time of it than a tradesman on the Aventine, with no police force, little official justice and rampant crime. If some dragon owning hero with a slave army (another thought provoking point - the whole unsullied..what does their freedom mean when to them it's simply another word? - but I digress) - a hero with a slave army raced in and 'freed' all the roman slaves and threw them to the Aventine , you'd have devestation beyond anything else History has provided and you'd have basically fucked the lives of thousands of people... and not the ones you think - the ones you just 'saved'

It's an interesting and refreshing perspective on the societies he's showing rather than impose the very modern historical perspective on things.

[jarl the climber]

I think slavery in Ghiscari society is an established order. Slavery all though it is considered to be inhumane does provide for the education, employment, and sustenance of most of the population. So not only do you have to destroy the old order but you have to find a new way to organise all of this. At the same time you have a powerful minority who wants to reinstitute then old order. Then you also have outside actors interfering in the situation as well like Quarth, Volantis, etc. Martin is just trying to be at least a little realistic about the difficulties involved in this.

[Jon Flowers]

Come on everyone. Let's let this silly thread die. All together now...

[Rheagar Prime]

no he is depicting it just like it was in the real world a business and culture pretty accurate if you ask me.

[Light a wight tonight]

Of America? No. You're way off. I wasn't saying that I agreed with that notion that slavery is good myself I just felt at the time that you could draw that conclusion from reading the text. Obviously that conclusion clashed with my own personal views.

Total, I'll jump in here, a little late. What you cited was the view of slavery held by a man who personally profited from slavery and who grew up in a culture where slavery and the slave trade was ingrained. Just about everywhere else you look in the books you see slavery depicted as something pretty horrible. In Westeros selling slaves is considered an outrage, to the extent that Jorah Mormont would have been sent to the Wall as a punishment for selling the poachers to a slaver if he hadn't fled to Essos first. Likewise, many of the slavery-related scenes in Essos show slavery as pretty nasty, as in the Unsullieds' training.

To suggest that Martin approves of slavery, or whatever you were implying, requires that you ignore a ton of anti-slavery story elements while concentrating on one conversation taken out of context.

[PatrickStormborn]

Xaro may "win" against Dany in that scene, but it doesn't mean he's right or that GRRM agrees with him. He's just showing what would realistically happen in an argument between a 16 year old and an older person with more experience.

[FuriousGeorge]

@OP have you been out licking windows or something?

[I know I know]

Xaro Xoan Daxos does make some pretty good points, though.

For one, that it is hypocritical of Daenerys to style herself a freer of slaves while also prescribing forced labor as punishment to her enemies.

It is also at the very least disturbingly ironical that her greatest assets are her slaver husband and her perfectly-trained slaves, who have been deprived of even most of their ability to make decisions of their own. In many significant senses, Daenerys is trying to out-slave the slavers she swears to disapprove of.

I don't blame her too much for that, though. She really, really doesn't know better.

It hurts to know that all of this layering of detail on Dany will be lost from her character in the TV series. Much like the conversations with the undying, quaythe, etc.

IMHO, Dany is probably one of the most changed characters in the series. If George does intend to use all this character building (from the awesome Xaro, espeiclaly) as a setup for her descent into madness and questionable judgement in the last of the books, the TV series will have a hard time of following the descent.

And it will be D&D's own fault. Argh, their house of the undying is still a source of butthurt.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Slavery is wrong forcing someone into servitude so you don't have to do the work yourself is wrong. Basing your whole economy on it then claiming the city would be doomed without it isn't a strong excuse. Not really. If your city falls because your inhuman methods of keeping it running falls apart, maybe your city deserved to fall.