Do you think Martin justifies slavery in ADWD?

[total1402]

In a discussion between Doxos and Dany they have this argument and Doxos comes out on top because he argues that slavery produces a prosperous society and is good for the slaves themselves. Many want to be enslaved for the benefits of this and Tyrion meets one old slave who tells him just that. Dany isn't able to adequetly reply to this and admits this herself. She dwells on how her rebellion has made Mereen poor, economically backward and worse off. Compare that to Yunkai which had all its slaves and gold taken off it by Dany in ASOS and the countryside ravaged; just like Mereen. However, because it uses slavery it easily overcomes these obstacles and is able to finance a large war effort against Dany; who finds herself impoverished. So the author seemed to me to be arguing that its better for a society to stick to the status quo and that its never worth rebelling against it because you only make things worse. A deeply conservative attitude and one which stresses the benefits of slavery and pushes the moral nievity or shallowness of justifying to abolish it. To the point of presenting such a desire as childish and irrational. Do you think Martin intended to make such a point and justify slavery?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Given Martin's politics, I hardly think he's justifying slavery as such.

What I think he is getting at is that revolution is complicated. You can overthrow the old repressive order, but the mindsets arising from that order will continue to persist, causing problems further down the line.

[Jaime's Wench]

I think he posed the same moral dilemma that my History teacher posed to us when we were studying the emancipation of the serfs in Russia. Basically, you can't just free the masses, and just expect the economy to copy with it. Good topic!

[Éadaoin]

..... No.

[E-Ro]

..... No.

Agreed!

[Prince of the North]

No, I don't think so. I think Martin was showing that viewpoint through a character. That doesn't necessarily mean Martin holds that opinion. Also, Dany is struggling with the fact that a social norm and, indeed, society as a whole does not change over night or easily at all.

[Tagganaro]

In a discussion between Doxos and Dany they have this argument and Doxos comes out on top because he argues that slavery produces a prosperous society and is good for the slaves themselves. Many want to be enslaved for the benefits of this and Tyrion meets one old slave who tells him just that. Dany isn't able to adequetly reply to this and admits this herself. She dwells on how her rebellion has made Mereen poor, economically backward and worse off. Compare that to Yunkai which had all its slaves and gold taken off it by Dany in ASOS and the countryside ravaged; just like Mereen. However, because it uses slavery it easily overcomes these obstacles and is able to finance a large war effort against Dany; who finds herself impoverished. So the author seemed to me to be arguing that its better for a society to stick to the status quo and that its never worth rebelling against it because you only make things worse. A deeply conservative attitude and one which stresses the benefits of slavery and pushes the moral nievity or shallowness of justifying to abolish it. To the point of presenting such a desire as childish and irrational. Do you think Martin intended to make such a point and justify slavery?

No I think Martin intended to show how shortsighted and ridiculous Dany's plan was to end slavery. He wanted to show that she had not considered the global implications nor did she consider alternative economic growths to slavery. It was more a shortsighted "I'm disgusted by this institution and it needs to end" with no actual plan to end it.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Good topic!

I disagree.

A deeply conservative attitude and one which stresses the benefits of slavery and pushes the moral nievity or shallowness of justifying to abolish it. To the point of presenting such a desire as childish and irrational. Do you think Martin intended to make such a point and justify slavery?

This is really toeing a line, mate. Im not sure whether to be pretty grossed out you think the author is justifying slavery, or just plain angry.

[total1402]

Its a bit different to the Tsar emancipating the serfs because this was a revolt and where the change is portrayed in wholly negative terms. Whilst we Yunkai recover rapidly from war Mereen does not and this contrast sets out pretty clearly that status quo good/ change bad. We're not really presented with any reason to see Danys actions as positive; even from her own POV.

If a character pretty clearly loses an argument in that manner and other POV characters express similar doubts then on some level yes. Not on a moral level, but certainly in argueing that the change was not for the better and that its physical consequences were entirely negative. Which is still a justification. Danys opinions on slavery represent the opinions of the reader and their nievity and these are challenged by Doxos. Thats not different than how say Ned or Robbs honour was put down in previous books. Its meant to be jaded and challenging. The books are known for being jaded and arguing that the cruel action is always the most beneficial and prudent thing to do. I don't see why he wouldn't make a similar point here. .

[Éadaoin]

No I think Martin intended to show how shortsighted and ridiculous Dany's plan was to end slavery. He wanted to show that she had not considered the global implications nor did she consider alternative economic growths to slavery. It was more a shortsighted "I'm disgusted by this institution and it needs to end" with no actual plan to end it.

In short: it was there to show that Dany can be a bit of a moron.

[LuisDantas]

Martin's point was never that slavery is justified, but rather that the challenges of economy, survival and political administration are not to be taken lightly.

Oh, and also that people with good intentions will and do commit attrocities. Xaro Xoan Daxos points out, quite properly, that while Daenerys wants to be a freer of slaves she simply doesn't know how to do it very well, or even to deal with the consequences when she succeeds.

It says a lot more about how artificial and limited Daenerys' leadership is than about the relative merits of slavery and freedom.

[butterbumps!]

In a discussion between Doxos and Dany they have this argument and Doxos comes out on top because he argues that slavery produces a prosperous society and is good for the slaves themselves. Many want to be enslaved for the benefits of this and Tyrion meets one old slave who tells him just that. Dany isn't able to adequetly reply to this and admits this herself. She dwells on how her rebellion has made Mereen poor, economically backward and worse off. Compare that to Yunkai which had all its slaves and gold taken off it by Dany in ASOS and the countryside ravaged; just like Mereen. However, because it uses slavery it easily overcomes these obstacles and is able to finance a large war effort against Dany; who finds herself impoverished. So the author seemed to me to be arguing that its better for a society to stick to the status quo and that its never worth rebelling against it because you only make things worse. A deeply conservative attitude and one which stresses the benefits of slavery and pushes the moral nievity or shallowness of justifying to abolish it. To the point of presenting such a desire as childish and irrational. Do you think Martin intended to make such a point and justify slavery?

Daxos doesn't exactly "come out on top." This discussion shows us that it's easy to justify any evil or atrocity with rationalizations and rhetoric, but making an argument about morality is a different sort of beast. Dany doesn't have the language to argue that slavery is wrong in some sort of high philosophical terms, and the wrongness of slavery isn't something that necessarily can come down to cost-benefit reasoned-based argument. But we modern readers know that she's obviously right in stating that slavery is "just wrong."

There is not a chance that Martin is actually justifying slavery. Don't mistake the author's characters for the author himself.

[Starfell]

On top of what people have said already; the Slaver's Bay storyline is almost certainly a deliberate deconstruction of the tired old "the hero waltzes in and fixes everything" cliche that abounds in fantasy. What we see here is the fallout from the heroine's attempt to end slavery by fiat. They won't be worshipped by everyone and there will be adverse consequences to what seems like such a positive action

[Kittykatknits]

..... No.

Yep, pretty much this. Martin has his characters say a lot of things, that doesn't mean he agrees with all of them. There's nothing in the text supporting the idea that Martin believes slavery is a good thing. If anything, the responses to Dany as "mother" would hint just how the former slaves felt. The bigger message Martin from Martin is that overturning entire cultures and economies is slightly more complicated than sacking a couple cities and saying "just so". Slavery seems to be the medium used by Martin to help deliver his message.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Do you think Martin intended to make such a point and justify slavery?

No.

[straits]

In a discussion between Doxos and Dany they have this argument and Doxos comes out on top because he argues that slavery produces a prosperous society and is good for the slaves themselves. Many want to be enslaved for the benefits of this and Tyrion meets one old slave who tells him just that. Dany isn't able to adequetly reply to this and admits this herself. She dwells on how her rebellion has made Mereen poor, economically backward and worse off. Compare that to Yunkai which had all its slaves and gold taken off it by Dany in ASOS and the countryside ravaged; just like Mereen. However, because it uses slavery it easily overcomes these obstacles and is able to finance a large war effort against Dany; who finds herself impoverished. So the author seemed to me to be arguing that its better for a society to stick to the status quo and that its never worth rebelling against it because you only make things worse. A deeply conservative attitude and one which stresses the benefits of slavery and pushes the moral nievity or shallowness of justifying to abolish it. To the point of presenting such a desire as childish and irrational. Do you think Martin intended to make such a point and justify slavery?

I think the exchange between Doxos and Dany was meant to pose provisional theoretical resistance to changing the status quo of slavery in the society. I doubt that any person of higher social standing would simply let the issue go and argue in favor of freeing the slaves.

There is not a chance that Martin is actually justifying slavery. Don't mistake the author's characters for the author himself.

This, you have to be aware of the lines between literary projection of ideas and dialogue.

[mushroomshirt]

On top of what people have said already; the Slaver's Bay storyline is almost certainly a deliberate deconstruction of the tired old "the hero waltzes in and fixes everything" cliche that abounds in fantasy. What we see here is the fallout from the heroine's attempt to end slavery by fiat. They won't be worshipped by everyone and there will be adverse consequences to what seems like such a positive action

Well said

[total1402]

Not really. If the hero had done wrong then usually there would be an alternate or better way that would have been presented but one which was ignored. Perhaps a more thoughtful way of doing things or such. We're not shown that. Instead we get violent and destructive change; or sticking with what you have with slavery. The latter comes out on top and we learn that Dany should not have tried to free the slaves.and only made things a lot worse by doing this. So logiclly she should have just ignored them in Astapor and moved on. If something is portrayed in wholly negative terms then the change should never have been made and since we lack a 3rd way which might have been better theres not really much more to add to that.

[jons nissa]

No I think Martin intended to show how shortsighted and ridiculous Dany's plan was to end slavery. He wanted to show that she had not considered the global implications nor did she consider alternative economic growths to slavery. It was more a shortsighted "I'm disgusted by this institution and it needs to end" with no actual plan to end it.

In short: it was there to show that Dany can be a bit of a moron.

no, i don't think he was trying to justify slavery or make dany to be a moron. i think he wanted to illustrate a few things. first, that it isn't always as easy as saying "this system is problematic so i'll just eradicate it". next, he is also illustrating that leadership involves considering more factors than dany is currently considering. finally, that good intentions just aren't enough. it's meant to be part of dany's growing pains.

[LuisDantas]

Xaro Xoan Daxos does make some pretty good points, though.

For one, that it is hypocritical of Daenerys to style herself a freer of slaves while also prescribing forced labor as punishment to her enemies.

It is also at the very least disturbingly ironical that her greatest assets are her slaver husband and her perfectly-trained slaves, who have been deprived of even most of their ability to make decisions of their own. In many significant senses, Daenerys is trying to out-slave the slavers she swears to disapprove of.

I don't blame her too much for that, though. She really, really doesn't know better.