Do you think Martin justifies slavery in ADWD?

[TheMysteriousOne]

Presenting a slaver city as resolving these issues overnight and a free city which cannot even begin to is justifying slavery as an economic system.

Wait, are you talking about the morality of slavery or GRRM justifying it as an economic system, because those are completely different issues.

[Kittykatknits]

Dany impliments plans to plant crops, tries to establish overseas trade but is rebuffed except with the lhazar and replants the trees which make the commercial stuff Mereen used to sell. By the standards of an early modern ruler thats kinda most bases covered they consider all the natural resources of the region. So I don't see how Danys management is at fault and attention is never drawn to this. I would have expected a quip from Tyrion if that had been the case and how make the city rich. We don't ever get that.

It took months for Yunkai to recover and be stronger than it was despite having all their gold and slaves taken and the countryside set on fire by looters. So it clearly hasn't taken them decades to recover at all. So its not really a snapshot; its quite a strong contrast where we see the slavers suceed and resolve their problems. But the freedmen do not.

Dany does all that after sacking cities and taking over Mereen, when she recognizes there is a problem. Again, she's not actually planning but attempting some clean up after the fact. Changing an economy or a system of government takes time and can't be accomplished via fiat.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Total, I get the sense that what you are really looking for here is affirmation that Dany did the right thing despite the myriad elements that seem to suggest otherwise-- that Martin crafted this in such a way that the world is against Dany on this, and even extending that to the idea that Martin's sending a message about slavery versus freedom.

If it helps ease your mind, Dany is obviously right about freeing the slaves. Martin isn't endorsing slavery. Sometimes the right moral thing can't be rationally explained, and sometimes it comes at great expense. Even if Dany were the most stable ruler in the world, there would be some casualties in overturning a social order like this, but Dany isn't a particularly stable leader, and her methods caused pretty tremendous ripples of suffering-- I think the criticism are in the methods, not the ending of slavery.

Ding ding ding.

[ServantOnIce]

In a discussion between Doxos and Dany they have this argument and Doxos comes out on top because he argues that slavery produces a prosperous society and is good for the slaves themselves. Many want to be enslaved for the benefits of this and Tyrion meets one old slave who tells him just that. Dany isn't able to adequetly reply to this and admits this herself. She dwells on how her rebellion has made Mereen poor, economically backward and worse off. Compare that to Yunkai which had all its slaves and gold taken off it by Dany in ASOS and the countryside ravaged; just like Mereen. However, because it uses slavery it easily overcomes these obstacles and is able to finance a large war effort against Dany; who finds herself impoverished. So the author seemed to me to be arguing that its better for a society to stick to the status quo and that its never worth rebelling against it because you only make things worse. A deeply conservative attitude and one which stresses the benefits of slavery and pushes the moral nievity or shallowness of justifying to abolish it. To the point of presenting such a desire as childish and irrational. Do you think Martin intended to make such a point and justify slavery?

No, GRRM is a mega liberal.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Crops take time. Trade routes take time. Considering that just about the entire economy of this region is based on slavery — it's freaking called Slaver's Bay for a reason — planting a few beans isn't going to do much to overhaul an entire system. It also doesn't help that by pulling her stunt with the Unsullied, Dany has ensured that NO ONE in the region will ever trust her word or do business with her, because she's shown that she's untrustworthy in business transactions. That's what I mean when I say that her long-term planning is atrocious. She got her crotch-grabbing moment "freeing" the Unsullied, completely oblivious to the fact that she might need a reputation later. She also destroys her ships to sack Meereen, and then throws a fit later when she has no ships.

In her defense when she pulled the stunt in Astapor, she wasn't actually intending to stay in Slaver's Bay and rule anything. Her plan, in so much as she had one, was to sack a bunch of cities and then go to Westeros, in which case her underhanded dealings in Astapor wouldn't have been much of an issue. It is only after she gets to Meereen that she decides, "well I need some practice ruling first" and she is forced to lie in the bed she made for herself.

[Chaircat Meow]

Funny thing is a lot of successful attempt to abolish slavery have been undertaken without long term plans or well thought out schemes of economic amelioration.

The British justified the slave trade by prophesying that our economy would collapse if we banned it. As it was we were already being stuffed by the continental system and just upped and abolished it anyway on top of the rest of the mess in 1807.

I'm not American and no student of American history but Lincoln just issued a blanket emancipation proclamation to be enforced by his armies. Something he didn't conceive of doing at the start of the war.

However good your plan is massive social and economic upheavel is going to be a mess. If you want to do this sort of thing you are just going to have to reap the shit before things get better.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In her defense when she pulled the stunt in Astapor, she wasn't actually intending to stay in Slaver's Bay and rule anything. Her plan, in so much as she had one, was to sack a bunch of cities and then go to Westeros, in which case her underhanded dealings in Astapor wouldn't have been much of an issue. It is only after she gets to Meereen that she decides, "well I need some practice ruling first" and she is forced to lie in the bed she made for herself.

Perhaps, but that still doesn't speak highly of her long-term planning skills.

I'm not American and no student of American history but Lincoln just issued a blanket emancipation proclamation to be enforced by his armies. Something he didn't conceive of doing at the start of the war.

Yes he did, but it still led to a long period of economic and social unrest in the south, the results of which are still being felt 150 years later. It's not like he snapped his fingers, ended slavery and then BAM racial equality, peace and kumbayah.

[total1402]

What the what? Slavery is this region's economic engine. Moral or immoral, it is. It'd be the same thing as if this region were based completely on, I dunno, coal and Daenerys came in one day and said, "You're going to stop making coal, full stop, 100%, and focus on wind energy. No more coal!" It wouldn't happen overnight, just like it's insanity to assume that slavery would go away overnight. You can't just flip the lightswitch here.

Right, um. How did the Yunkish buy their slaves if they had no gold? Dany took all their slaves so I imagine that would cost a lot of money and without them they have no income either. Not to mention that her freedmen stripped the countryside bare. But they have the money to fight a war so clearly they easily recovered due to this magical economic system.

@Butterbumps If a character does bad the author has to present a third way. If he criticises the methods as being to harsh or cruel then he needs to have presented an alternate approach. No alternative to freeing the slaves by force is presented other than not freeing them in the first place.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Right, um. How did the Yunkish buy their slaves if they had no gold? Dany took all their slaves so I imagine that would cost a lot of money and without them they have no income either. Not to mention that her freedmen stripped the countryside bare. But they have the money to fight a war so clearly they easily recovered due to this magical economic system.

I have no idea what you're even trying to argue at this point. Bottom line, no, GRRM is not trying to say that slavery is a good system. Why you expect miracles overnight is your own business, but it's not realistic and I'm glad GRRM didn't write the story so that it was. If you want Dany to be some overnight-success messiah figure who can do no wrong and does everything right the first time and everyone who opposes her is just a big meanie, go write your own fan fiction. But that's not the story being written here, thank God.

[Kittykatknits]

Right, um. How did the Yunkish buy their slaves if they had no gold? Dany took all their slaves so I imagine that would cost a lot of money and without them they have no income either. Not to mention that her freedmen stripped the countryside bare. But they have the money to fight a war so clearly they easily recovered due to this magical economic system.

@Butterbumps If a character does bad the author has to present a third way. If he criticises the methods as being to harsh or cruel then he needs to have presented an alternate approach. No alternative to freeing the slaves by force is presented other than not freeing them in the first place.

According to what logic? The books are filled with the characters put in positions where it seems they have nothing but had choices in front of them.

[TheMysteriousOne]

. If he criticises the methods as being to harsh or cruel then he needs to have presented an alternate approach. No alternative to freeing the slaves by force is presented other than not freeing them in the first place.

Why should he if he's being realistic. Come on.

[total1402]

No, a slaver city has specialized workforce. A recently 'freed' city is forced to function along unfamiliar lines. Not enough time will have passed till after the end of the series.

I am refering to the way Yunkai bounces back after Dany took 100,000 slaves off them; thus cutting their income off and promised to take all their gold as well before she took the city. Which makes its recovery and ability to wage a war pretty demonstrative of how better slavery is. Yunkai lost all of its specialised workforce BTW.

[Chaircat Meow]

Perhaps, but that still doesn't speak highly of her long-term planning skills.

Yes he did, but it still led to a long period of economic and social unrest in the south, the results of which are still being felt 150 years later. It's not like he snapped his fingers, ended slavery and then BAM racial equality, peace and kumbayah.

I know. That was what I was saying. I was under the impression most Americans thought the end of slavery during the civil war was, on balance, a good thing and didn't consider Lincoln a twerp because plan was immediate, short term, led to x,y and z etc.

[The Great Walrus]

I have no idea what you're even trying to argue at this point. Bottom line, no, GRRM is not trying to say that slavery is a good system. Why you expect miracles overnight is your own business, but it's not realistic and I'm glad GRRM didn't write the story so that it was. If you want Dany to be some overnight-success messiah figure who can do no wrong and does everything right the first time and everyone who opposes her is just a big meanie, go write your own fan fiction. But that's not the story being written here, thank God.

Apple, you've argued with this guy before, you know this can't end well...

[total1402]

Why should he if he's being realistic. Come on.

Because its not a complete argument then.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I know. That was what I saying. I was under the impression most Americans thought the end of slavery during the civil war was, on balance, a good thing and didn't consider Lincoln a twerp.

I sincerely hope you're not comparing Abraham Lincoln, a brilliant politician and strategist, to Dany, who is a twit. It's possible to think that ending slavery is a good thing while also recognizing that it is a process that might take a very long time. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[TheMysteriousOne]

@total1402: Just because you're a Dany fan doesn't mean you have to try to validate everything she does. I'm a Dany fan, and I sure as hell don't. Freeing the slaves was awesome, but what was bad were her actions afterward and her presumption. Do you think that you can just walk in somewhere and upset a whole system without planning what do to after? Daenerys made that mistake.

[butterbumps!]

@Butterbumps If a character does bad the author has to present a third way. If he criticises the methods as being to harsh or cruel then he needs to have presented an alternate approach. No alternative to freeing the slaves by force is presented other than not freeing them in the first place.

I'm not sure what you mean. The author "has" to present a third way?

How about "Dany stays in Vaes Tolorro for a few years while the dragons grow (and therefore become actionably effective "big sticks") and learns to rule there, fully understanding how ruling works before trying to rule over a massive region." A fourth idea is "Dany is not actually meant to be seen as a ruler, but rather an agent of change, and trying to shoehorn her into the role of a traditional ruler is missing the point of her arc."

[Chaircat Meow]

I sincerely hope you're not comparing Abaraham Lincoln, a brilliant politician and strategist, to Dany, who is a twit. It's possible to think that ending slavery is a good thing while also recognizing that it is a process that might take a very long time. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Somehow I knew you'd say that.

The emancipation of slaves in America in the 1860s is generally thought to be a success despite coming in the midst of a terrible war and leaving lots of problems for afterwards. You don't like Dany so the fact that things are a mess now leads you to conclude the whole idea was hilarious/wrongheaded because it's not the product of a long term plan and sows problems in its wake. It would have been pretty easy to say the same in 1863. It's never going to look good at the time it happens, that sort of socio-economic system dies hard.

[The Great Walrus]

Aye, it appears he's already moved on...