Do you think Martin justifies slavery in ADWD?

[total1402]

This type of reading is incredibly shortsighted and narrow-viewed. Incidentally, that's also one of the points the reader should pick up on with the conversation between XXD and Dany. XXD, a known slaver, is not there to tell Dany what is morally right or wrong, but to sway her to alter her course so that it benefits him and his colleagues. Crippling the slave trade negatively impacted XXD's bottom line and it's in his economic interests to make Dany change her mind. Dany knows slavery is morally wrong, but lacks the inability to articulate the reasons. She's also discovering how shortsighted she was when she started her abolitionist movement. Ending slavery does not happen over night and installing an alternative and morally acceptable economic system takes years to implement. Yes, Dany looks bad during that conversation, as well she should. It's a learning to lead moment that she sort of misses. If she wants to make changes, she has to plant trees...and plan for seeing the trees grow to fruition. (That's a metaphor, by the way).

Danys whole stint at Mereen is her planning on taking a breather to manage the slaves, improve their lot and in her own words "grow olive trees". This is in contrast to ASOS where she took the bringer of change approach and it ended with Astapor being ruled by a butcher King and Yunkai going back to trading slaves and plotting to destroy all the freedmen. So she was planning on a long slow development of the region and by her conversation at the end of ADWD was so sick of war n killing that this was a better alternative. So we saw her long term strategy fail just as it did with her light touch at Astapor and Yunkai. The fact she didn't have any time at all to recover from the war whilst the city was at war isn't really relevent. If this were a case study it would stand to reason that long term development failed in this instance. So I don't think the XXD vs D debate was about arguing that Dany should have taken a different strategy to resolve the issue. Because shes already doing a long term strategy and sitting planting trees. However it does draw attention to her inability to justify her actions which on 3 seperate instances have resulted in failure and with very different tactics each time.

[rmholt]

There are several POVs discussing slavery. None of them are titled GRRM

[Dr. Pepper]

Danys whole stint at Mereen is her planning on taking a breather to manage the slaves, improve their lot and in her own words "grow olive trees". This is in contrast to ASOS where she took the bringer of change approach and it ended with Astapor being ruled by a butcher King and Yunkai going back to trading slaves and plotting to destroy all the freedmen. So she was planning on a long slow development of the region and by her conversation at the end of ADWD was so sick of war n killing that this was a better alternative. So we saw her long term strategy fail just as it did with her light touch at Astapor and Yunkai. The fact she didn't have any time at all to recover from the war whilst the city was at war isn't really relevent. If this were a case study it would stand to reason that long term development failed in this instance. So I don't think the XXD vs D debate was about arguing that Dany should have taken a different strategy to resolve the issue. Because shes already doing a long term strategy and sitting planting trees. However it does draw attention to her inability to justify her actions which on 3 seperate instances have resulted in failure and with very different tactics each time.

I don't really understand your point. XXD isn't trying to argue that Dany should have taken a different strategy with her abolitionist movement. He's there to convince her to leave so the economy returns to the status quo. This tells us that at least part of Dany's mission in Slaver's Bay has been successful. She has crippled the slave-based economy so thoroughly that a representative has come to give her the Dothraki treatment -pay her off so she goes away.

The reader should pick up on two separate things here. XXD is there for his own purposes - to return the status quo. Of course he is going to justify slavery in order to do so. The other thing the reader should pick up on is that no matter how noble the cause, it's not as simple as saying, "Slaves, you are now free." It's not as simple as just planting literal trees and staying in that city for a while.

I can see you don't understand the tree metaphor. In very simple terms, it means that Dany needs to have a long-term plan with several branches and the plan needs time to mature in order to be successful. That's one of the things Dany needs to have learned from that conversation. Planting trees (again, as a metaphor) requires much more than just fire and blood (conquering).

I still really do not understand your point, and especially don't understand what you mean with regards to Martin allegedly justifying slavery. As rmholt says,

There are several POVs discussing slavery. None of them are titled GRRM

[total1402]

But the ending of the tale has Dany learn the exact opposite lesson and to embrace fire and blood. Not to mention that very few characters in this book series have ever made or used long term plans. The notable exceptions being Baelish n Varys. Most decisions and strategy made by the characters in this series are short term and often in response to rapidly changing circumstances. Also, I don't see that the fault is placed on Daenerys ability to plan things because its just in the nature of the books that they need to simplify how complex these things are. For instance we don't exactly know how Baelish gets all his money and increases crown revenue. Its put in very simplified terms and the effects are described to us. Crown revenues go up by such and such. With Dany in Mereen its pretty much the same. Theres a shortage of food. So they dig up crops and get trade with the lhazar; which goes some measure to alleviating the issue. Attention isn't really drawn to the foibles of regrowing the olive trees. Its a good idea but Danys failure is being unable to come up with a short term means of producing money and employing people. So her long term planning isn't whats at fault or what the text highlights. I am pretty sure if the economy was being mismanaged then Tyrion or another POV character would have quipped it before now. A bit like how he does on her leaving the wells unpoisoned and how she doesn't understand siegecraft.

[Daemul]

GRRM justifies slavery? What?

*abandons thread*

[Dr. Pepper]

<stuff>

Don't know what to tell you except that there may be a different book you can read.

[Éadaoin]

Don't know what to tell you except that there may be a different book you can read.

And maybe you should take look at this book when you get a chance.

[Dr. Pepper]

And maybe you should take look at this book when you get a chance.

They haven't even written a book for someone like you. There's a website, though. Take lessons.

ETA: Oh snap, just discovered that you are wicked. So very very wicked.

[Éadaoin]

They haven't even written a book for someone like you. There's a website, though. Take lessons.

ETA: Oh snap, just discovered that you are wicked. So very very wicked.

This might be of interest to you. Don't worry, there's hope for you yet.

[Dr. Pepper]

This might be of interest to you. Don't worry, there's hope for you yet.

Check and mate, my dear.

[The Great Walrus]

This might be of interest to you. Don't worry, there's hope for you yet.

Misogyny ahoy!

[Dr. Pepper]

Misogyny ahoy!

Let's not bring misogyny into this. After all, Martin has some misogynist characters. The OP may start thinking Martin is justifying hatred of women.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I don't think so. Just because he shows that slavers bay falls apart without it thats not a justification FOR it. They've built their economy on the backs of the less fortunate. The fact that its illegal in all of Westeros shows the counter. Jorah is run out of the country for participating in it. Thats hardly justification.

[The Great Walrus]

Let's not bring misogyny into this. After all, Martin has some misogynist characters. The OP may start thinking Martin is justifying hatred of women.

I was talking about the book Eadie linked to...

[TrueMetis]

But the ending of the tale has Dany learn the exact opposite lesson and to embrace fire and blood. Not to mention that very few characters in this book series have ever made or used long term plans. The notable exceptions being Baelish n Varys. Most decisions and strategy made by the characters in this series are short term and often in response to rapidly changing circumstances. Also, I don't see that the fault is placed on Daenerys ability to plan things because its just in the nature of the books that they need to simplify how complex these things are. For instance we don't exactly know how Baelish gets all his money and increases crown revenue. Its put in very simplified terms and the effects are described to us. Crown revenues go up by such and such. With Dany in Mereen its pretty much the same. Theres a shortage of food. So they dig up crops and get trade with the lhazar; which goes some measure to alleviating the issue. Attention isn't really drawn to the foibles of regrowing the olive trees. Its a good idea but Danys failure is being unable to come up with a short term means of producing money and employing people. So her long term planning isn't whats at fault or what the text highlights. I am pretty sure if the economy was being mismanaged then Tyrion or another POV character would have quipped it before now. A bit like how he does on her leaving the wells unpoisoned and how she doesn't understand siegecraft.

So what do you propose as a short term solution to feeding a city after all the croplands got destroyed and the people around you aren't willing to trade cause your trying to destroy their economy? Or a short term way of making money when your'e against the way they used to make money and the area seems to have nothing in resources.

Maybe the issue isn't Danys inability to think of something but that there actually isn't something.

[total1402]

Well Dany did get a short term solution of feeding the city as mentioned in the thread above. If you compare it to Kings Landing waiting for Stannis in ACOK its in a lot better shape on that front. The trade was more problematic.

[Pod The Impaler]

But the ending of the tale has Dany learn the exact opposite lesson and to embrace fire and blood. Not to mention that very few characters in this book series have ever made or used long term plans. The notable exceptions being Baelish n Varys. Most decisions and strategy made by the characters in this series are short term and often in response to rapidly changing circumstances. Also, I don't see that the fault is placed on Daenerys ability to plan things because its just in the nature of the books that they need to simplify how complex these things are. For instance we don't exactly know how Baelish gets all his money and increases crown revenue. Its put in very simplified terms and the effects are described to us. Crown revenues go up by such and such. With Dany in Mereen its pretty much the same. Theres a shortage of food. So they dig up crops and get trade with the lhazar; which goes some measure to alleviating the issue. Attention isn't really drawn to the foibles of regrowing the olive trees. Its a good idea but Danys failure is being unable to come up with a short term means of producing money and employing people. So her long term planning isn't whats at fault or what the text highlights. I am pretty sure if the economy was being mismanaged then Tyrion or another POV character would have quipped it before now. A bit like how he does on her leaving the wells unpoisoned and how she doesn't understand siegecraft.

If people want to take a more general look, maybe they can consider what some of GRRM's usual themes are in ASOIAF...

- Power does not make things easier or simpler. Taking it is often easier than using it.

- You can make as many enemies by trying to be kind as trying to be ruthless. That being said ...

- The use of your power has consequences - as does not using it. Sometimes those consequences can be antcipated, sometimes not.

- The old adage: "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."

All of these apply in Dany's case.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

GRRM doesn't make Dany look stupid because he's trying to justify slavery. He makes her look stupid because she's been spouting off about being anti-savery and Xaro shows that no, she makes use of it too even though she's in denial. The point of the exchange isn't "abolition doesn't work and slavery is good," the point of it is, "Dany is a hypocrite."

[redviper9]

Funny thing is a lot of successful attempt to abolish slavery have been undertaken without long term plans or well thought out schemes of economic amelioration.

The British justified the slave trade by prophesying that our economy would collapse if we banned it. As it was we were already being stuffed by the continental system and just upped and abolished it anyway on top of the rest of the mess in 1807.

I'm not American and no student of American history but Lincoln just issued a blanket emancipation proclamation to be enforced by his armies. Something he didn't conceive of doing at the start of the war.

However good your plan is massive social and economic upheavel is going to be a mess. If you want to do this sort of thing you are just going to have to reap the shit before things get better.

Somehow I knew you'd say that.

The emancipation of slaves in America in the 1860s is generally thought to be a success despite coming in the midst of a terrible war and leaving lots of problems for afterwards. You don't like Dany so the fact that things are a mess now leads you to conclude the whole idea was hilarious/wrongheaded because it's not the product of a long term plan and sows problems in its wake. It would have been pretty easy to say the same in 1863. It's never going to look good at the time it happens, that sort of socio-economic system dies hard.

I'll only wade into this because I'm a historian of Latin America and the U.S.: the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in the states that seceded. It did not abolish slavery in the slave states that remained in the Union (Delaware, Kentucky, and Maryland). That didn't come about until the 13th Amendment in 1865, something that took a great deal of congressional negotiations and was also impulsed by slaves freeing themselves and the Union generals coming to believe that slavery had to be abolished (when the war began, Lincoln and many other northern leaders were willing to allow slavery to remain legal). One of the big "what ifs?" in U.S. history is how things would have played out if Lincoln had lived and been able to implement his plan for Reconstruction. All signs point to Lincoln attempting to be as conciliatory as possible because he knew that the southern states weren't going to be happy about their economic system being destroyed and their cities and fields being ravaged by the Union armies.

Alright, tangent over. Back on topic, as Apple Martini, butterbumps!, Dr. Pepper, and so many others have stated, GRRM is not attempting to justify slavery. He's showing us that attempting to completely overhaul a social, economic, and cultural system by fiat -- no matter how good the intentions or vile that that social, economic, and cultural system is -- is never easy and can have unintended consequences.

[Arland]

Alright, tangent over. Back on topic, as Apple Martini, butterbumps!, Dr. Pepper, and so many others have stated, GRRM is not attempting to justify slavery. He's showing us that attempting to completely overhaul a social, economic, and cultural system by fiat -- no matter how good the intentions or vile that that social, economic, and cultural system is -- is never easy and can have unintended consequences.

You see - here exactly lies the problem. It is all good and well to talk about "never easy" and "unintended consequences". If that is what GRRM tries to say, he should not bother - it is as clear as a sun.

Saying it , without drawing the next logical conclusion is cowardice.

Given the fact that is it "never easy" and has "unintended consequences", should it be done anyway or not - that is the real question.

If the answer is still positive, all the talk about how hard it is is nothing but pointless whining.

If not - then GRMM, or posters who talk about it in fact do justify slavery.