Do you think Martin justifies slavery in ADWD?

[TheMysteriousOne]

The OP makes me LOL because of how absurd it is

[Sasha Steelsong]

Given Martin's politics, I hardly think he's justifying slavery as such.

What I think he is getting at is that revolution is complicated. You can overthrow the old repressive order, but the mindsets arising from that order will continue to persist, causing problems further down the line.

I think he posed the same moral dilemma that my History teacher posed to us when we were studying the emancipation of the serfs in Russia. Basically, you can't just free the masses, and just expect the economy to copy with it. Good topic!

I think it is a bit of both of these. We faced similar issues here in the US when we ended slavery. Particularly if the over-arching insitutions remain (i.e the US still existed, where as when roman slavery died it out it was in part due to the empire itself dying) there is always going to be a certain amount of chaos as well as a certain number of the oppressed who have really made peace with their oppression. That is what I think Martin was trying to show.

[TheMysteriousOne]

I think it is a bit of both of these. We faced similar issues here in the US when we ended slavery. Particularly if the over-arching insitutions remain (i.e the US still existed, where as when roman slavery died it out it was in part due to the empire itself dying) there is always going to be a certain amount of chaos as well as a certain number of the oppressed who have really made peace with their oppression. That is what I think Martin was trying to show.

This

[straits]

I think it is a bit of both of these. We faced similar issues here in the US when we ended slavery. Particularly if the over-arching insitutions remain (i.e the US still existed, where as when roman slavery died it out it was in part due to the empire itself dying) there is always going to be a certain amount of chaos as well as a certain number of the oppressed who have really made peace with their oppression. That is what I think Martin was trying to show.

Yeah. The result is a well established hierarchy among slaves, and a certain level of comfort associated with obeying their masters.

[total1402]

I don't see how her freeing the slaves by fiat can be considered a bad decisiion. I don't think she could have talked this over or negociated better conditions with the nobility. As for her management of the Mereenese economy. Well its destroyed by the war when the trees are burned down and trees take a long time to grow (five years I think they say?). ADWD is only a few months at most and theres only a few months between it n ASOS. Whilst other powers refuse to trade the goods she has. So its kind of hard to fault her managing the economy in those circumstances. However we as the readers know that Yunkai faced similar issues and overcame them easily within a few weeks by using slaves; even though they had their gold taken off them by Dany. So the issue isn't management its a pretty clear cut distinction that one institution fails (free labour) and the other being slavery produces clearly incredible results.

Again, no third way is presented that Dany might have taken to find better results. Slavery produces results in the book. Whilst free labour fails miserably. Its a strong contrast and sends a clear message.

[Éadaoin]

no, i don't think he was trying to justify slavery or make dany to be a moron. i think he wanted to illustrate a few things. first, that it isn't always as easy as saying "this system is problematic so i'll just eradicate it". next, he is also illustrating that leadership involves considering more factors than dany is currently considering. finally, that good intentions just aren't enough. it's meant to be part of dany's growing pains.

I feel like we're essentially in agreement, but you're just being nicer about it.

[TheMysteriousOne]

The whole Slaver's Bay thing is basically Dany's 'the story of my life'.

[The Great Walrus]

In short, no. Martin was merely pointing out that revolutions are never simple, you can't just overthrow a regime and expect everything to be all sunshine and rainbows...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The point is that you can't remake an entire economic and social system overnight based solely on one person's say-so. Not that slavery is good or OK, just that Dany did a terrible job of 1. creating a substitute economy for it and 2. planning for the long term. Just saying, "OK, no more slavery" is not good enough.

[The Great Walrus]

The OP makes me LOL because of how absurd it is

Well, we all need some misguided soul to provide us with a little humor...

[straits]

Again, no third way is presented that Dany might have taken to find better results. Slavery produces results in the book. Whilst free labour fails miserably. Its a strong contrast and sends a clear message.

The point is that you can't remake an entire economic and social system overnight based solely on one person's say-so. Not that slavery is good or OK, just that Dany did a terrible job of 1. creating a substitute economy for it and 2. planning for the long term. Just saying, "OK, no more slavery" is not good enough.

The chaotic fallout is pretty faithful to what would have happened in reality. This 'strong contrast' you refer to is a static snapshot of the situation which will take decades to stabilize.

[total1402]

The point is that you can't remake an entire economic and social system overnight based solely on one person's say-so. Not that slavery is good or OK, just that Dany did a terrible job of 1. creating a substitute economy for it and 2. planning for the long term. Just saying, "OK, no more slavery" is not good enough.

Dany impliments plans to plant crops, tries to establish overseas trade but is rebuffed except with the lhazar and replants the trees which make the commercial stuff Mereen used to sell. By the standards of an early modern ruler thats kinda most bases covered they consider all the natural resources of the region. So I don't see how Danys management is at fault and attention is never drawn to this. I would have expected a quip from Tyrion if that had been the case and how make the city rich. We don't ever get that.

It took months for Yunkai to recover and be stronger than it was despite having all their gold and slaves taken and the countryside set on fire by looters. So it clearly hasn't taken them decades to recover at all. So its not really a snapshot; its quite a strong contrast where we see the slavers suceed and resolve their problems. But the freedmen do not.

[straits]

Dany impliments plans to plant crops, tries to establish overseas trade but is rebuffed except with the lhazar and replants the trees which make the commercial stuff Mereen used to sell. By the standards of an early modern ruler thats kinda most bases covered they consider all the natural resources of the region. So I don't see how Danys management is at fault and attention is never drawn to this. I would have expected a quip from Tyrion if that had been the case and how make the city rich. We don't ever get that.

Making the problem to go away in order to appease a moral and economic argument on the merits and pitfalls of slavery is bad writing.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dany impliments plans to plant crops, tries to establish overseas trade but is rebuffed except with the lhazar and replants the trees which make the commercial stuff Mereen used to sell. By the standards of an early modern ruler thats kinda most bases covered they consider all the natural resources of the region. So I don't see how Danys management is at fault and attention is never drawn to this. I would have expected a quip from Tyrion if that had been the case and how make the city rich. We don't ever get that.

Crops take time. Trade routes take time. Considering that just about the entire economy of this region is based on slavery — it's freaking called Slaver's Bay for a reason — planting a few beans isn't going to do much to overhaul an entire system. It also doesn't help that by pulling her stunt with the Unsullied, Dany has ensured that NO ONE in the region will ever trust her word or do business with her, because she's shown that she's untrustworthy in business transactions. That's what I mean when I say that her long-term planning is atrocious. She got her crotch-grabbing moment "freeing" the Unsullied, completely oblivious to the fact that she might need a reputation later. She also destroys her ships to sack Meereen, and then throws a fit later when she has no ships.

[total1402]

Expecting the problem to go away in order to appease a moral and economic argument on the merits and pitfalls of slavery is bad writing.

Presenting a slaver city as resolving these issues overnight and a free city which cannot even begin to is justifying slavery as an economic system.

Apple Martini, the reason the slaver cities want to not trade with Dany is because they want to kill and rape her for stirring up their slaves. Its got nothing to do with her business etiquette. Her freeing the slaves is the main stumbling block to her getting trade.

[The Great Walrus]

This is goin to be fun...

[Chaircat Meow]

The economic circumstances of Slavers Bay are especially weird in order to magnify the problem. Any decent exports ruined by the old government, and an economy highly dependent on acting as a middle man in the slave trade anyway. On top of that Dany's main problems are actually not economic but military with the Yunkai.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Presenting a slaver city as resolving these issues overnight and a free city which cannot even begin to is justifying slavery as an economic system.

What the what? Slavery is this region's economic engine. Moral or immoral, it is. It'd be the same thing as if this region were based completely on, I dunno, coal and Daenerys came in one day and said, "You're going to stop making coal, full stop, 100%, and focus on wind energy. No more coal!" It wouldn't happen overnight, just like it's insanity to assume that slavery would go away overnight. You can't just flip the lightswitch here.

[butterbumps!]

I don't see how her freeing the slaves by fiat can be considered a bad decisiion. I don't think she could have talked this over or negociated better conditions with the nobility. As for her management of the Mereenese economy. Well its destroyed by the war when the trees are burned down and trees take a long time to grow (five years I think they say?). ADWD is only a few months at most and theres only a few months between it n ASOS. Whilst other powers refuse to trade the goods she has. So its kind of hard to fault her managing the economy in those circumstances. However we as the readers know that Yunkai faced similar issues and overcame them easily within a few weeks by using slaves; even though they had their gold taken off them by Dany. So the issue isn't management its a pretty clear cut distinction that one institution fails (free labour) and the other being slavery produces clearly incredible results.

Again, no third way is presented that Dany might have taken to find better results. Slavery produces results in the book. Whilst free labour fails miserably. Its a strong contrast and sends a clear message.

Total, I get the sense that what you are really looking for here is affirmation that Dany did the right thing despite the myriad elements that seem to suggest otherwise-- that Martin crafted this in such a way that the world is against Dany on this, and even extending that to the idea that Martin's sending a message about slavery versus freedom.

If it helps ease your mind, Dany is obviously right about freeing the slaves. Martin isn't endorsing slavery. Sometimes the right moral thing can't be rationally explained, and sometimes it comes at great expense. Even if Dany were the most stable ruler in the world, there would be some casualties in overturning a social order like this, but Dany isn't a particularly stable leader, and her methods caused pretty tremendous ripples of suffering-- I think the criticism are in the methods, not the ending of slavery.

[straits]

Presenting a slaver city as resolving these issues overnight and a free city which cannot even begin to is justifying slavery as an economic system.

No, a slaver city has specialized workforce. A recently 'freed' city is forced to function along unfamiliar lines. Not enough time will have passed till after the end of the series.