Cersei, Lysa, and the Valonqar

[TalalOfDorne]

At least Lysa died as an innocent murdered.

Im not sure if I would call Lysa innocent.

[WightsNatch]

Im not sure if I would call Lysa innocent.

Me neither. Murdering your husband, cuckolding him with another man (LF). Sweetrobin could be a Baelish, instead of an Arryn. She's not just a victim here.

[TalalOfDorne]

Me neither. Murdering your husband, cuckolding him with another man (LF). She's not just a victim here.

Not to mention lying to your sister and help start a war.

Sweetrobin could be a Baelish, instead of an Arryn.

As Ive said before in this thread, considering the fact that Lysa and Cersei have a lot of similarities, I wouldnt eliminate the possibility of this being true.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Im not sure if I would call Lysa innocent.

Me neither. Murdering your husband, cuckolding him with another man (LF). Sweetrobin could be a Baelish, instead of an Arryn. She's not just a victim here.

As an innocent under people's eyes, I mean. Except by Littlefinger and Sansa nobody knows what she did. Everyone knows that Cersei is stupid and (for players) easy to predict and control.

[aedalia]

This thread is making me very suspicous of my little brother... :P

I think Lysa was manipulated more than Cersei, though. If we compare their lovers, LF used her to get what he wanted. Thus far, Jaime hasn't done the same to Cersei. Is this foreshadowing? After he meets with LS, will Jaime come to Cersei for something that will lead to her undoing?

[TalalOfDorne]

This thread is making me very suspicous of my little brother... :P

I think Lysa was manipulated more than Cersei, though. If we compare their lovers, LF used her to get what he wanted. Thus far, Jaime hasn't done the same to Cersei. Is this foreshadowing? After he meets with LS, will Jaime come to Cersei for something that will lead to her undoing?

Yes as Winters Knight said, Cersei does things on her own initiative, unlike Lysa. Though I still cant say Lysa is blameless. Yes she was manipulated and had a rough marriage, but there comes a point where you just have to take responsibility of your actions. I do however agree that Lysa was more secretive than Cersei, and was seen only as a coward in others eyes.

[TalalOfDorne]

As an innocent under people's eyes, I mean. Except by Littlefinger and Sansa nobody knows what she did. Everyone knows that Cersei is stupid and (for players) easy to predict and control.

I guess when you put it that way youre probably right.

Unpopular opinion: Ive said this before, but I never really thought of Cersei as just plain "stupid". I always thought that she had some potential (And intelligence) to be a good ruler. I think pride and paranoia play a huge part in influencing her decisions, and not for the better, and of course Tywin shares some of the blame as well IMO. Im not saying Cersei is blameless though.

Cersei was a lot bolder than Lysa too.

[StormRhage]

This thread is almost spine chilling! Absolutely incredible how many similarities there are. GRRM is a genius. This does lend some hope that Jamie and Brienne may both survive the Lady Stonehart mess, assuming Jamie kills Cersei because of Cersei threatening Brienne.

:agree:

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Unpopular opinion: Ive said this before, but I never really thought of Cersei as just plain "stupid". I always thought that she had some potential (And intelligence) to be a good ruler. I think pride and paranoia play a huge part in influencing her decisions, and not for the better, and of course Tywin shares some of the blame as well IMO. Im not saying Cersei is blameless though.

I agree very much that Cersei is not what we'd usually call stupid. Ask her questions like logical puzzles with a content she's emotionally detached from, and she'll be among the better performers from the cast of ASOIF.

What she has in an extreme issue with her perception of reality. Her pride, hopes and fears simply get in the way. E.g. she's not too stupid to know that when people get bigger, the clothes won't fit, she's just unwilling to acknowledge that possibility for herself (btw, have we already mentioned the similarity "weight issues"?).

Cersei doesn't take the effort to distinguish what probably will happen from what she fears might happen, what she hopes could happen and what she believes should happen, which often leads to extremely crappy plans.

[TalalOfDorne]

I agree very much that Cersei is not what we'd usually call stupid. Ask her questions like logical puzzles with a content she's emotionally detached from, and she'll be among the better performers from the cast of ASOIF.

What she has in an extreme issue with her perception of reality. Her pride, hopes and fears simply get in the way. E.g. she's not too stupid to know that when people get bigger, the clothes won't fit, she's just unwilling to acknowledge that possibility for herself (btw, have we already mentioned the similarity "weight issues"?).

Cersei doesn't take the effort to distinguish what probably will happen from what she fears might happen, what she hopes could happen and what she believes should happen, which often leads to extremely crappy plans.

:agree: I guess thats what makes some of her decisions more irritating to me. The fact that she has the ability to use her common sense to make her plans but ends up allowing the other factors you mentioned to dictate her plans and decisions instead.

And yes I believe that the "weight issue" was mentioned in the thread :) .

[honeyed chicken]

I'm not saying LF didn't plan on killing Lysa, but that he killed her after she tried to kill Sansa, sooner than he had wanted.

I think he killed her exactly when he planned to.

LF loves only LF, as Tyrion once said.

So when he kissed Sansa, deeply and passionately, in the open courtyard of the Eyrie where Lysa could hardly help but see, it was planned.

After that he rarely kisses Sansa, despite being alone with her whenever he wants.

It is not like him to be sloppy and impulsive - just to look that way to fool others.

He was goading Lysa into doing something stupid,as he no doubt goaded her to kill Jon Arryn, and lie to Cat about the Lannisters killing Arryn.

I think he had been playing her like a fiddle for years and this was the final note.

[TalalOfDorne]

I think he killed her exactly when he planned to.

LF loves only LF, as Tyrion once said.

So when he kissed Sansa, deeply and passionately, in the open courtyard of the Eyrie where Lysa could hardly help but see, it was planned.

After that he rarely kisses Sansa, despite being alone with her whenever he wants.

It is not like him to be sloppy and impulsive - just to look that way to fool others.

He was goading Lysa into doing something stupid,as he no doubt goaded her to kill Jon Arryn, and lie to Cat about the Lannisters killing Arryn.

I think he had been playing her like a fiddle for years and this was the final note.

You could have a point. Though Im not sure if LF would risk Lysa going berserk and trying to kill Sansa (Which she almost did).

[Lord Ravenstark]

I think he killed her exactly when he planned to.

LF loves only LF, as Tyrion once said.

So when he kissed Sansa, deeply and passionately, in the open courtyard of the Eyrie where Lysa could hardly help but see, it was planned.

After that he rarely kisses Sansa, despite being alone with her whenever he wants.

It is not like him to be sloppy and impulsive - just to look that way to fool others.

He was goading Lysa into doing something stupid,as he no doubt goaded her to kill Jon Arryn, and lie to Cat about the Lannisters killing Arryn.

I think he had been playing her like a fiddle for years and this was the final note.

LF ask for Sansa kisses everytime.

[TalalOfDorne]

LF ask for Sansa kisses everytime.

Theres that too.

[Arya kiddin']

LF ask for Sansa kisses everytime.

Damn that pervert.

[TalalOfDorne]

One thing thats been bothering me about this is their ages. I seem to remember thats its very likely they are the same age, and I dont want to rely on the wiki on this one, seeing how not everything is accurate. If their ages were mentioned in the books, then I have forgotten them.

And I just noticed that their husbands deaths both contributed to the start of a war. And both deaths were somehow related to their "younger brothers". Lysa did what she did for LF, and Cersei did it to protect herself, and her brothers children. They are also both challenged by the second most powerful men in their domain (Lysa by Yohn Royce, and Cersei by Ned) coincidentally, both are First Men descendants. Both women end up keeping things under control after those two threats (With LFs intervention?).

[Sansa_Stark]

Not to mention lying to your sister and help start a war.

As Ive said before in this thread, considering the fact that Lysa and Cersei have a lot of similarities, I wouldnt eliminate the possibility of this being true.

+ Letting Marillion rape your household and not doing anything about it.

[TalalOfDorne]

+ Letting Marillion rape your household and not doing anything about it.

But she did do something. She gave him nice clothes and gifts and stuff LOL.

ETA: Though to be fair, there are other bigger things I would hold against her than this one.

[cocoalover1956]

I always thought Cersei's treatement of Sansa was akin to a type of institutionalized hazing ritual. Maybe something similar to hazing in the fraternety/sorority community? Her attitude is certainly that of someone thinking "well if I had to go through it, so do you! why should you be spared?". It definitely reveals another weakness of her character, and lack of foresight. She can neither empathize with Sansa, nor envision a situation in which she would rely on Sansa's mercy/kindness. When you say "[Lysa]... does the exact same thing again" I'm assuming you mean despite having marriage forced on her against her will, she technically does it to Sansa. IIRC Sansa does not publicly object to the marriage to Sweetrobin, but in her thoughts she thinks she'd rather be married to Tyrion again. So Lysa displays the same type of arrogance as Cersei; while she is at the top of the world, so to speak, she is also drunk on and blind from her own power. She is completely unable to regard Sansa as a human being with a will of her own, and forces her own former troubles on Sansa.

I think the main diseases Cersei and Lysa suffer from are lack of empathy and lack of perspective. No matter how hard they try, they simply don't see far enough into the future to make intelligent choices.

I've also noticed that Cersei and Lysa inability to empathize or plan ahead passed onto their children. Joffrey is exceptionally cruel to people who can't retaliate (namely Sansa, but he's also mentioned to abuse servants, smallfolk, his siblings) without a second thought. He execute Ned Stark to prove himself a tough ruler, even though doing would (and did) start a war. Sweetrobin likes to see people "fly" but doesn't seem to understand that you can't just throw people off a mountain because you feel like. He would rather not move for the winter, even though staying at the Eyrie would mean freezing to death.

[TalalOfDorne]

I've also noticed that Cersei and Lysa inability to empathize or plan ahead passed onto their children. Joffrey is exceptionally cruel to people who can't retaliate (namely Sansa, but he's also mentioned to abuse servants, smallfolk, his siblings) without a second thought. He execute Ned Stark to prove himself a tough ruler, even though doing would (and did) start a war. Sweetrobin likes to see people "fly" but doesn't seem to understand that you can't just throw people off a mountain because you feel like. He would rather not move for the winter, even though staying at the Eyrie would mean freezing to death.

Id say Sweetrobin is too young to judge. If he doesnt change for the better in the next few years (If he lives that long), then I can see him becoming a little like Joffrey.