Cersei, Lysa, and the Valonqar

[Sansa_Stark]

I've also noticed that Cersei and Lysa inability to empathize or plan ahead passed onto their children. Joffrey is exceptionally cruel to people who can't retaliate (namely Sansa, but he's also mentioned to abuse servants, smallfolk, his siblings) without a second thought. He execute Ned Stark to prove himself a tough ruler, even though doing would (and did) start a war. Sweetrobin likes to see people "fly" but doesn't seem to understand that you can't just throw people off a mountain because you feel like. He would rather not move for the winter, even though staying at the Eyrie would mean freezing to death.

He was 6 during Tyrion's trial. As odd as his behavior was you can chalk a lot of it down to childish ignorance. Especially when you realize how Lysa has raised him.

[Lady Arya's Song]

Just found this thread. Really a nice OP and all the supporting evidence posted by everyone.

One comment regarding Jaime holding onto Cersei's foot and ankle as a parallel to Jacob and Esau.

There is another explanation other than Jacob being the usurper. The other reason given for Jacob holding onto Esaus foot is to keep Esau's foot from crushing his skull. In Judaism the rabbis speak about this often and that Jacob exhibited respect and honor towards his spiritual legacy while Esau did not. Just wanted to throw that into the mix.

I am not sure which version Martin is using but it from an early age Jaime is shown in a more favorable light by GRRM.

Cersei is cruel to her baby brother Tyrion (physical cruelty and verbal abuse) and also I suspect killed her friend Melara because Melara had the arrogance to say that she had a crush on Jaime and ask Maggy if her future included Jaime Lannister.

I have wondered just exactly what manipulation Cersei did in KL back stage that resulted in Jaime being given the opportunity to become a King's guard. She tells him after their night of sex that she will take care of the details.

Cersei has always viewed Jaime as her boy toy and has shown resentment towards anything or anyone giving Jaime agency.

This might be similar to how Lysa also viewed Petyr just in a more whiter grey way.

Lysa seems to have resented Cat's relationship with Petyr as well when they were children.

One last thought regarding Jacob and Esau as a final moment in Jaime and Cersei. The rabbis teach that when Jacob and Esau finally met. It is true that Esau kissed Jacob on his neck but they also say the shin (hebrew letter) in the word kissed is TEETH. Meaning Esau really is still Jacob's enemy. This is why Jacob does not visit Esau as he says he will do in the near future but leaves and takes his family somewhere else. Ties in rather nicely with Jaime linking up with Brienne and refusing to be Cersei's hand.

[Lyse Stark]

Just found this thread. Really a nice OP and all the supporting evidence posted by everyone.

One comment regarding Jaime holding onto Cersei's foot and ankle as a parallel to Jacob and Esau.

There is another explanation other than Jacob being the usurper. The other reason given for Jacob holding onto Esaus foot is to keep Esau's foot from crushing his skull. In Judaism the rabbis speak about this often and that Jacob exhibited respect and honor towards his spiritual legacy while Esau did not. Just wanted to throw that into the mix.

I am not sure which version Martin is using but it from an early age Jaime is shown in a more favorable light by GRRM.

Cersei is cruel to her baby brother Tyrion (physical cruelty and verbal abuse) and also I suspect killed her friend Melara because Melara had the arrogance to say that she had a crush on Jaime and ask Maggy if her future included Jaime Lannister.

I have wondered just exactly what manipulation Cersei did in KL back stage that resulted in Jaime being given the opportunity to become a King's guard. She tells him after their night of sex that she will take care of the details.

Cersei has always viewed Jaime as her boy toy and has shown resentment towards anything or anyone giving Jaime agency.

This might be similar to how Lysa also viewed Petyr just in a more whiter grey way.

Lysa seems to have resented Cat's relationship with Petyr as well when they were children.

One last thought regarding Jacob and Esau as a final moment in Jaime and Cersei. The rabbis teach that when Jacob and Esau finally met. It is true that Esau kissed Jacob on his neck but they also say the shin (hebrew letter) in the word kissed is TEETH. Meaning Esau really is still Jacob's enemy. This is why Jacob does not visit Esau as he says he will do in the near future but leaves and takes his family somewhere else. Ties in rather nicely with Jaime linking up with Brienne and refusing to be Cersei's hand.

Good catch.

[Fire Eater]

snip

Nice, I too saw the parallel to Jacob and Esau. Jacob took Esau's inheritance and birthright while Cersei had Jaime join the KG losing his inheritance to CR, which later went to Cersei when their father died.

Jacob also had a vision where he saw a ladder leading into heaven in the sky with angels along it while Jaime had vision going down the stairs into the earth, the bowels of CR with members of the KG dressed in white along with Rhaegar .

[Lyse Stark]

Nice, I too saw the parellel to Jacob and Esau. Jacob took Esau's inheritance and birthright while Cersei had Jaime join the KG losing his inheritance to CR, which later went to Cersei when their father died.

Jacob also had a vision where he saw a ladder leading into heaven in the sky with angels along it while Jaime had vision going down the stairs into the earth, the bowels of CR with members of the KG dressed in white along with Rhaegar .

And in the end times the Jews believe Edom (the descendants of Esau) will be destroyed, just as Cersei is destroying her own legacy. Jaime will kill Cersei in order to keep her from burning down the Red Keep.

[Annara Snow]

Cersei liked to blame everyone else for her own mistakes. It's ridiculous that she blames Tywin for her unhappy marriage to Robert, acting like she was not happy to marry him. Ultimately she resents him, because she thinks he removed her from power, because she is a woman. In her own mind she is this political genius superior to Tywin and Tywin's sexism blinded him to this fact. Her thinking if she was a man she could rule the Iron Throne in her own right is telling enough. In reality Tywin removes her from power, because she is highly incompetent.

I don't remember anything in the books that suggests Cersei was happy to marry Robert? That was just the show thing.

Both women seem to react to their victimization in a similar way. Lysa had a forced abortion and was married to a man she did not want. Cersei was married to man that both hit and repeatedly raped her. One would think they would show sympathy to other women in similar situations yet the do the opposite. Cersei treats Sansa terribly, fully knowing that Sansa will undergo the treatment that she was also subjected too. Lysa, despite her marriage, does the exact same thing again. Despite hating the system, both women will perpetuate it for their own ends.

I always thought Cersei's treatement of Sansa was akin to a type of institutionalized hazing ritual. Maybe something similar to hazing in the fraternety/sorority community? Her attitude is certainly that of someone thinking "well if I had to go through it, so do you! why should you be spared?". It definitely reveals another weakness of her character, and lack of foresight. She can neither empathize with Sansa, nor envision a situation in which she would rely on Sansa's mercy/kindness. When you say "[Lysa]... does the exact same thing again" I'm assuming you mean despite having marriage forced on her against her will, she technically does it to Sansa. IIRC Sansa does not publicly object to the marriage to Sweetrobin, but in her thoughts she thinks she'd rather be married to Tyrion again. So Lysa displays the same type of arrogance as Cersei; while she is at the top of the world, so to speak, she is also drunk on and blind from her own power. She is completely unable to regard Sansa as a human being with a will of her own, and forces her own former troubles on Sansa.

I think the main diseases Cersei and Lysa suffer from are lack of empathy and lack of perspective. No matter how hard they try, they simply don't see far enough into the future to make intelligent choices.

I dont remember Sansa objecting the idea either. Its also interesting to see how they handle Sansas supposed treachery of them: Cersei thinks Sansa was ungrateful because after all the things she's "done for her" she still escapes. I dont remember Lysas exact reaction to Littlefingers kiss with Sansa though. I need to re-read that part to see if she, like Cersei, actually believes she actually was kind to Sansa and that she (Sansa) betrayed said kindness.

We don't see Sansa either objecting or agreeing to the SR marriage, although in her last ASOS chapter she was intending to tell Lysa she wasn't going to agree. But when Lysa told Sansa she was to marry SR, she followed it by telling her that she was "little more than a beggar now" and that she had no choice - in other words, implied Sansa had to marry SR or she could throw her out, which in her position would be almost death sentence since she was wanted for regicide. It's not that far off from Sansa not being able to object to the Joffrey betrothal since she was a helpless hostage.

Lysa and Cersei indeed share that personality trait - they both resent their fathers/husbands for how they have been treated as women (Lysa for forced abortion and unwanted marriage, Cersei for unwanted marriage and the physical and sexual abuse she's suffered in it, and for being denied power and inheritance by the system) but, although Cersei's resentment gets to be more political and she seems to have resentment against the system too, neither of them show empathy for other women who suffer the same way, and they're willing to victimize them or go along with their victimization. Both also let men in their household/court rape and abuse women (Marillion/Qyburn), Lysa engages in victim-blaming of Sansa, and Cersei, despite her sexual abuse by Robert, shows no empathy for septas who are getting raped, even has a really gross thought that they are old and ugly virgins that would "enjoy" a bit of rape. The only difference seems to be that Cersei thinks more about the gender issues but also has some internalized misogyny, while Lysa doesn't seem to have given much thought to anything. But both of them are self-centered, and their grievances don't help them develop empathy for others. Cersei only shows empathy for her own daughter, and for Baelor's sisters - historical figures that she identifies with but who present no rival to her since they are long dead. It doesn't extend to living women/girls she interacts with, even if she sees the similarities in their fates (Sansa) or to women she doesn't identify with because she sees them as too different from her (the septas).

The Tyrion connection between the two reflects that they're both prejudiced in other ways, too, since Cersei shows a lot of prejudice early on for Tyrion as a "misshapen monster", among other things (although she also had other reasons, like her mother's death, and she was probably influenced by her father's to Tyrion as well), and Lysa shows strong prejudice for Tyrion as an ugly dwarf as well, even though she barely knows him.

[Sansa_Stark]

I believe Cersei even admits she was happy on the first day of their wedding for a moments and she made him "wet" during her wedding night

[Annara Snow]

I believe Cersei even admits she was happy on the first day of their wedding and she made him "wet" during her wedding night

She mentions he made her wet on their wedding night, and only then. But I don't remember anything about her being happy to marry him, she even says she always resented him because he killed Rhaegar. Getting wet by a guy doesn't have to imply particularly liking him or being happy to marry him.

[Sansa_Stark]

She mentions he made her wet on their wedding night, and only then. But I don't remember anything about her being happy to marry him, she even says she always resented him because he killed Rhaegar. Getting wet by a guy doesn't have to imply particularly liking him or being happy to marry him.

I edited my post.

She was happy for a few moments when the crowd was cheering.

"For one short moment she had been happy in her marriage...until she chanced to glance at Jaime."

[Sansa_Stark]

Oh and her quote about Rhaegar?

She never forgave him for it.

Same thing with Catelyn.

She could never forgive Ned with the way he dealt with Jon.

But the latter loves Ned.

The whole situation with Rhaegar didn't mean Cersei had to hate Robert.

Its not a slight on her "honor"

[Emilia Stark]

I've been lurking for close to a year, but this topic has inspired me to comment as it's unique and interesting. This is my first post-- be gentle. ;)

I know I'm a bit late to the party... but... IIRC, at some point Cersei reveals that (aside from the complications with Jaime) she might have been happy with Robert, but he was in love with Lyanna's ghost, and never paid much attention to her unless he was drunk and lusty.

To take it a bit further, upthread someone mentioned how it's somewhat tragic and interesting that Robert and Cersei are in love with idealized memories of Lyanna and Rhaegar. In a way, doesn't this create another parallel with Lysa, in the unrequited love of her husband, who is instead in love with the ghost of another woman from his youth: Littlefinger and Cat? And a further parallel in that both women had crushes who were both unattainable because they were in love with Stark women (Lyanna and Cat).

In this regard, LF is both Lysa's Rhaegar and her Jaime, which complicates the example, but bear with me... Although in her case, Lysa is eventually able to gain LF's hand in marriage, she desires an idealized/unattainable vision of him-- one she dreamed up in her childhood, one who loves her as she loves him; Cersei also once wanted Robert to want her. LF's memories of Cat are deluded and idealized, just as Robert's are of Lyanna. And in Lysa's final interaction with her husband at the moon door, he's dwelling on the ghost of another woman instead of his wife; somewhat similarly, when Robert is in his deathbed, he turns Cersei away, and chooses instead to dwell on Lyanna with Ned.

I realize that this would be more compelling if the unrequited love were from Jon Arryn, as he's Robert's mirror image in this scenario... The key differences are that Cersei let go of Rhaegar a bit more easily (because she had Jaime to distract her), and that she once wanted Robert albeit briefly, whereas Lysa never cared for Jon, and only ever wanted LF (because he was her childhood crush and her distraction rolled into one). The other difference being that Lysa doesn't have to live long with the knowledge that her love is unrequited. Even so, there are more than a few interesting similarities to ponder.

TL;DR Cercei is unable to gain the love of Rhaegar or Robert just as Lysa never gains the love of Littlefinger or Jon. Both have unrequited childhood loves, both have husbands in love with a ghost from the past, both ghosts happen to be Stark women. Looking at the two from a psychological perspective, unrequited love combined with mental instability can cause someone to become batshit crazy over time, and these bitches both be crazy.

[Attitude]

I like this thread. Didn't notice the similaritys in the characters at all to be honest.

Then again, I am especially interested in the valonqar/valonquar (what's the correct spelling anyway?) part. I think Jaime being Cersei's makes a lot of sense and it would be a great ending of her story arc (which I like btw, I really enjoy(ed) seeing the ground crumbeling beneath her feet which ended up in her downfall and eventually her death. I mean, she is on of the darkest characters in the series (yes they are all grey, but she is dark-grey/almost black). She is crazy and doesn't trust anyone. Besides that, she isn't as smart as she thinks she is (yes she framed Ned, but he was way to honest). Her dawnfall is one of the greatest things I've read in asoiaf.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Nice thread!First time I noticed the similarities too. It would be funny if Cersei is killed for the same woman Lysa was killed:Sansa Stark.If Sansa is taken back to Kings Landing (either as Aegon's ally/future wife or for trial for Joffrey's death) and Cersei tries to kill her,then Jaime interrupts and kills Cersei.

[Annara Snow]

I've been lurking for close to a year, but this topic has inspired me to comment as it's unique and interesting. This is my first post-- be gentle. ;)

I know I'm a bit late to the party... but... IIRC, at some point Cersei reveals that (aside from the complications with Jaime) she might have been happy with Robert, but he was in love with Lyanna's ghost, and never paid much attention to her unless he was drunk and lusty.

To take it a bit further, upthread someone mentioned how it's somewhat tragic and interesting that Robert and Cersei are in love with idealized memories of Lyanna and Rhaegar. In a way, doesn't this create another parallel with Lysa, in the unrequited love of her husband, who is instead in love with the ghost of another woman from his youth: Littlefinger and Cat? And a further parallel in that both women had crushes who were both unattainable because they were in love with Stark women (Lyanna and Cat).

In this regard, LF is both Lysa's Rhaegar and her Jaime, which complicates the example, but bear with me... Although in her case, Lysa is eventually able to gain LF's hand in marriage, she desires an idealized/unattainable vision of him-- one she dreamed up in her childhood, one who loves her as she loves him; Cersei also once wanted Robert to want her. LF's memories of Cat are deluded and idealized, just as Robert's are of Lyanna. And in Lysa's final interaction with her husband at the moon door, he's dwelling on the ghost of another woman instead of his wife; somewhat similarly, when Robert is in his deathbed, he turns Cersei away, and chooses instead to dwell on Lyanna with Ned.

I realize that this would be more compelling if the unrequited love were from Jon Arryn, as he's Robert's mirror image in this scenario... The key differences are that Cersei let go of Rhaegar a bit more easily (because she had Jaime to distract her), and that she once wanted Robert albeit briefly, whereas Lysa never cared for Jon, and only ever wanted LF (because he was her childhood crush and her distraction rolled into one). The other difference being that Lysa doesn't have to live long with the knowledge that her love is unrequited. Even so, there are more than a few interesting similarities to ponder.

TL;DR Cercei is unable to gain the love of Rhaegar or Robert just as Lysa never gains the love of Littlefinger or Jon. Both have unrequited childhood loves, both have husbands in love with a ghost from the past, both ghosts happen to be Stark women. Looking at the two from a psychological perspective, unrequited love combined with mental instability can cause someone to become batshit crazy over time, and these bitches both be crazy.

Show!Cersei wanted Robert once and thought she could be happy with him.

Book!Cersei never wanted him or liked him and didn't think she could be happy with him.

[larastone]

Show!Cersei wanted Robert once and thought she could be happy with him.

Book!Cersei never wanted him or liked him and didn't think she could be happy with him.

Book!Cersei wasn't "in love" with Robert like Show!Cersei was but she did have some of Sansa's dreaminess and idealism early on and thought that Robert was attractive and was genuinely happy on their wedding day. That all went to shit though when Robert called Lyanna's name and because of his further abuse of her.

[larastone]

This is an interesting post and I agree that there are some similarities between them but I'm not sure if I agree that they're that much similar. Cersei is motivated by power and is extremely ambitious and manipulates others with sex. She's jealous of Jaime in some regards but that jealousy is very different from Lysa's jealousy of Catelyn. Compare that to Lysa, who's batshit crazy in love with Littlefinger and thats where most of her motivation stems from that. They're both pawns but Cersei isn't the type to be manipulated by sex and she's definitely not the type who would be willing to base her entire life because of being madly in love with a man.

I also want to note that while Cersei and Lysa are both abusive towards women, Lysa's abuse stems from jealousy while Cersei's abuse stems from thinking those women are weak and are therefore not worthy of her attention. I actually think Cersei is an equal opportunist hater tbh, yeah sure she has internalized misogyny but she is just as critical towards men who she also believes are weak. Cersei hates any kind of weakness in general.

So while there are some definite similarities, I don't GRRM did them in order to illustrate how Jaime is the valonqar. Personally, I think there are much stronger parallels and similarities between Dany and Cersei who GRRM himself has said he intentionally paralleled in AFFC/ADWD. I also think there are much stronger parallels between Cersei/Sansa, Cersei/Arya and Cersei/Catelyn than Cersei/Lysa.

Also no chance Jaime is killing Cersei and saying "only Brienne" because he was very much in love with Cersei for 99% of his life.

[Annara Snow]

Book!Cersei wasn't "in love" with Robert like Show!Cersei was but she did have some of Sansa's dreaminess and idealism early on and thought that Robert was attractive and was genuinely happy on their wedding day. That all went to shit though when Robert called Lyanna's name and because of his further abuse of her.

Book!Cersei was only happy for a moment - while the crowd was cheering for her as a queen, but her happiness turned sour the moment she noticed the look on Jaime's face. That's very far from "genuinely happy on her wedding day" and doesn't speak to a great possibility for future happiness. Not to mention that she had had sex with Jaime on the morning of her wedding. (Possibly intended as goodbye sex, but still.)

I don't remember Cersei's exact thoughts about Robert's looks in the books; but she never waxes poetic about his looks in her POV thoughts the way she does about Rhaegar and Jaime. She may have thought he was good-looking, but thinking that someone is good-looking doesn't say anything about any personal liking or attraction to the person in itself. There are lots of men I think are good-looking but don't feel attracted to them at all. Sansa thinks Lyn Corbray is handsome for an older man but that she doesn't trust or like him. There is a whole paragraph in Cat's POV in AGOT waxing poetic about Jaime's good looks, and Arya has noticed the good looks of a whole bunch of people, male and female, including a guy she hated and intended to kill (and did kill).

Cersei's Sansa-like dreaminess and idealism is seen in her girlish dreams about marrying prince Rhaegar.

[larastone]

Book!Cersei was only happy for a moment - while the crowd was cheering for her as a queen, but her happiness turned sour the moment she noticed the look on Jaime's face. That's very far from "genuinely happy on her wedding day" and doesn't speak to a great possibility for future happiness. Not to mention that she had had sex with Jaime on the morning of her wedding. (Possibly intended as goodbye sex, but still.)

Thinking that someone is good-looking doesn't say anything about any personal liking or attraction to the person in itself. Sansa thinks Lyn Corbray is handsome for an older man but that she doesn't trust or like him. There is a whole paragraph in Cat's POV in AGOT waxing poetic about Jaime's good looks, and Arya has noticed the good looks of a whole bunch of people, male and female, including a guy she hated and intended to kill (and did kill).

Her Sansa-like dreaminess and idealism is seen in her girlish dreams about marrying prince Rhaegar.

I don't necessarily disagree with you but I'm just saying that i don't think Cersei hated Robert with a fiery passion of a million suns immediately. She didn't even know who Robert as a person well before her marriage so you can't exactly fault her for having sex with the brother she was in a relationship with, hell I'm willing to bet good money that Robert probably had sex with an other woman/women on their wedding day too since he was an actually sex addict.

With the way she recounts her wedding day, I do think she had some hope that marriage with Robert wouldn't be so bad.

[Annara Snow]

I don't necessarily disagree with you but I'm just saying that i don't think Cersei hated Robert with a fiery passion of a million suns immediately. She didn't even know who Robert as a person well before her marriage so you can't exactly fault her for having sex with the brother she was in a relationship with, hell I'm willing to bet good money that Robert probably had sex with an other woman/women on their wedding day too since he was an actually sex addict.

With the way she recounts her wedding day, I do think she had some hope that marriage with Robert wouldn't be so bad.

That much is certainly true. She didn't hate him and she still had hope the marriage could turn out OK. But it's a far cry from wanting Robert and having unrequited love for him and feeling full of hope for great happiness (which is true of show!Cersei).

If we are to make a comparison with Sansa, if Cersei's crush on Rhaegar was her version of Sansa's crush on Joffrey/Loras, then Cersei's hopes about a marriage with Robert strike me more as a moderate hope, "maybe this will turn out to be a nice marriage after all and we will learn to love each other" akin to Sansa's dreams of a happy marriage with Willas.

[Attitude]

That much is certainly true. She didn't hate him and she still had hope the marriage could turn out OK. But it's a far cry from wanting Robert and having unrequited love for him and feeling full of hope for great happiness (which is true of show!Cersei).

If we are to make a comparison with Sansa, if Cersei's crush on Rhaegar was her version of Sansa's crush on Joffrey/Loras, then Cersei's hopes about a marriage with Robert strike me more as a moderate hope, "maybe this will turn out to be a nice marriage after all and we will learn to love each other" akin to Sansa's dreams of a happy marriage with Willas.

She did, IMO she hated him from the moment he said Lyanna on their honeymoon (iirc).