Cersei, Lysa, and the Valonqar

[TalalOfDorne]

I would say so. Lysa's issues are obvious, and Cersei's, while not as easy to identify, are also there too. Great work on the theory by the way, you have me sold.

Cerseis' view of Tywin intrigues me. We see her idolizing her father, and wanting to be like him in terms of shrewdness and efficiency. Yet we also see her resenting him for marrying her off to Robert and having to go through an unhappy marriage. So yeah she definitely had her issues with him, and we see them re-emerge when he tries to remarry her.

[Lemon of Lemonwood]

I would say so. Lysa's issues are obvious, and Cersei's, while not as easy to identify, are also there too. Great work on the theory by the way, you have me sold.

Cersei thought of all the King's Hands that she had known through the years: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, her brother Tyrion. And her father, Lord Tywin Lannister, her father most of all. All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought. They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. It is my day now. It is my castle and my kingdom.

If this part doesn't indicate a spite for Tywin,then what would?

Overall,an excellent post!

[TalalOfDorne]

Overall,an excellent post!

Thanks :D .

Cersei and Tywins relationship is probably among one of my favorites in the series.

[mrunderhill]

Cerseis' view of Tywin intrigues me. We see her idolizing her father, and wanting to be like him in terms of shrewdness and efficiency. Yet we also see her resenting him for marrying her off to Robert and having to go through an unhappy marriage. So yeah she definitely had her issues with him, and we see them re-emerge when he tries to remarry her.

Cersei liked to blame everyone else for her own mistakes. It's ridiculous that she blames Tywin for her unhappy marriage to Robert, acting like she was not happy to marry him. Ultimately she resents him, because she thinks he removed her from power, because she is a woman. In her own mind she is this political genius superior to Tywin and Tywin's sexism blinded him to this fact. Her thinking if she was a man she could rule the Iron Throne in her own right is telling enough. In reality Tywin removes her from power, because she is highly incompetent.

[TalalOfDorne]

Cersei liked to blame everyone else for her own mistakes. It's ridiculous that she blames Tywin for her unhappy marriage to Robert, acting like she was not happy to marry him. Ultimately she resents him, because she thinks he removed her from power, because she is a woman. In her own mind she is this political genius superior to Tywin and Tywin's sexism blinded him to this fact. Her thinking if she was a man she could rule the Iron Throne in her own right is telling enough. In reality Tywin removes her from power, because she is highly incompetent.

Although I have a different point of view on some of the things you mentioned, I do still think that she does have issues with her father . Whether Tywin was Ignorant of these issues, or simply didnt care is another topic.

I just see this as another similarity between Cersei and Lysa.

[King of Winters]

TalalOfDorne, I've seen this thread pop up every now and then so I think I should say great post and find :thumbsup:

[mrunderhill]

Although I have a different point of view on some of the things you mentioned, I do still think that she does have issues with her father . Whether Tywin was Ignorant of these issues, or simply didnt care is another topic.

I just see this as another similarity between Cersei and Lysa.

I said she has big issues with her father, but it's mostly due to her own delusions. Her big issues are

1. Not marrying her to Rhaegar, she blames him for not finding the perfect man like she thought Rhaegar was. Ironic that Cersei and Robert both create an idyllic version of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Her issues here are not very logical.

2. She has issues, because he planned to send her away from power and not give her the Rock.

These are the two issues where her issues arise from, but she is to blame for them, not Tywin.

Lysa has a genuine grievance with Hoster. He tricked her to abort her son, sent away the man she loved and then married her to someone older enough to be her father.

[TalalOfDorne]

TalalOfDorne, I've seen this thread pop up every now and then so I think I should say great post and find :thumbsup:

Thank you :D :D :D

[daario's man]

This is great work, I have to commend the OP and everybody else who make great points also.

[TargaryenFanatic]

It's a bit too cliché; for A Song of Ice and Fire's major couplet to end with one killing the other, don't you think?

[TalalOfDorne]

It's a bit too cliché; for A Song of Ice and Fire's major couplet to end with one killing the other, don't you think?

Not really (At least not to me). And Im not sure if we can dismiss a theory or speculation based on this, but hey, everyone has an opinion.

BTW welcome to the Forum :)

[Night'sQueen]

Seriously brilliant. I've read and re-read the books and never saw this.

[PJsnaks]

This is a fantastic thread!

[TalalOfDorne]

Seriously brilliant. I've read and re-read the books and never saw this.

This is a fantastic thread!

Thanks! If you find anymore similarities, please post them.

[MM22]

This is an amazing thread.

To the OP and everyone who posted: Well done! It's been one of the most interesting, original and less obvious threads I've come across (I'm relatively new).

I had never really even connected Lysa and Cersei much at all except in one way:

They're both noble women of great houses who assume the Arryn and Royal Baratheon regencies through their sons. Of course, there are more specific parallels which others have noted but it came to me whilst I was watching the series a while ago. Towards the end of the BoB, Cersei sitting on the throne with Tommen, looking paranoid and flustered reminded me heavily of Lysa and Sweetrobin on the Eyrie throne.

Am I right in thinking that they are only two women in the series to have true power and agency due to their positions as regents (and both fail miserably)?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Am I right in thinking that they are only two women in the series to have true power and agency due to their positions as regents (and both fail miserably)?

I agree, at least as far as the major houses are concerned, they are the only ones claiming the power that their husbands had in the name of their underage children.

Do we know anything about how well Lysa does as regent? I mean, some lords of the Vale are a bit unhappy because they would have welcomed entering the war, but that seems to have been more a matter of priorities than a matter of ruling competence - she didn't maneuver in any position where the winning side would be seriously cross with her after all. The Blackfish and Cat disapprove of her being undecisive on her suitors, but while her behaviour really does not exhibit good form, it's not really ruling incompetence she shows - she just doesn't want to choose, so she takes her time (while still not jeopardizing her position) - the stuff with the Lords Declarant only begins after her death iirc.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lysa was as big a failure as Cersei, but I don't remember any concrete instances.

[MM22]

I think you're onto something there. Whilst Lysa certainly seems indecisive and somewhat weak willed - The Vale and The Eyrie remain unharmed, and whilst the morality of her not aiding her nephew Robb is questionable, the people of the Vale, soldiers, lords and smallfolk are alive. If anything she has been the best 'Warden' by actually not inflicting war on her people. I'm aware that's my own modern view though.

It seems a very safe option in the long run though, as a Widowed, then regent Lady of The Vale / Warden of The East, would it really be wise for her (A Tully) to have plunged the Vale into war to aid Stark and Tully relations? It would not have really benefited House Arryn or the Vale at all.

Of course, it would have been great if she'd helped, but a woman in power via a regency is always questionable to powerful men in this kind of setting. Sure, now the Vale lords are annoyed that she didn't take action, but if she had sent the Vale forces to aid Robb, or allowed the war into the Vale then she may have always been remembered as the woman who brought war to the Vale by her people.

[TalalOfDorne]

Do we know anything about how well Lysa does as regent? I mean, some lords of the Vale are a bit unhappy because they would have welcomed entering the war, but that seems to have been more a matter of priorities than a matter of ruling competence - she didn't maneuver in any position where the winning side would be seriously cross with her after all. The Blackfish and Cat disapprove of her being undecisive on her suitors, but while her behaviour really does not exhibit good form, it's not really ruling incompetence she shows - she just doesn't want to choose, so she takes her time (while still not jeopardizing her position) - the stuff with the Lords Declarant only begins after her death iirc.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lysa was as big a failure as Cersei, but I don't remember any concrete instances.

So far there has not been much, as you said, to prove her to be an incompetent regent (Though can we dismiss the possibility of her consulting LF with most things?).

If we are going to find evidence for that, we are going to have to look in to late ASOS/AFFC. Ist where we see LF highlight some of her decisions IIRC.

[young.wolf]

If Jamie does kill her, does it have to be by choking her? this could be a bit of an issue since he only has one hand and still isnt comfortable using it for even simple things like eating and drinking... anyone have any ideas about how to get around this? Also I think Tyrion would be pissed if Jamie got to kill her instead of him but it could help him forgive Jamie for lying about Tycha

[Guest]

Wow, this never even occurred to me but these are fantastic points! Especially Petyr technically being the younger brother to Lysa since he was fostered with her.

Now Im starting to think if Lysa is also part of a secret prophecy that she never told anyone about. We only knew of Maggy the Frog when Cersei became a POV. Is it possible that Lysa may have had her own Maggy?

Maybe she new that hills witch, the one that told Arya to get lost.