The Others invasion

[Veltigar]

I think that the WW haven't attacked so far because there is the small problem of a cave that contains the last greenseer(s) and COTF. They are the biggest threat to the Others, so it would make sense that they try to eliminate the inhabitants of the cave first. On top of that there is also the possibility that the childrens cave is the entrance to the fabled Gorne's way, which is basically a passage way that goes under the wall does bypassing its magical defenses. I think we'll be seeing a succesful attack on the cave from Brans POV (Jojen has to die at some point) and that the Others will use the cave to bypass the wall and it's magic.

[tbc]

I think that the WW haven't attacked so far because there is the small problem of a cave that contains the last greenseer(s) and COTF. They are the biggest threat to the Others, so it would make sense that they try to eliminate the inhabitants of the cave first. On top of that there is also the possibility that the childrens cave is the entrance to the fabled Gorne's way, which is basically a passage way that goes under the wall does bypassing its magical defenses. I think we'll be seeing a succesful attack on the cave from Brans POV (Jojen has to die at some point) and that the Others will use the cave to bypass the wall and it's magic.

Why does Gorne's cave bypass the Wall's magical defenses? There's nothing in the text to suggest as such. Gorne, Gendel and army could travel over and through the Wall as well, they were humans.

[kjm16216]

I don't think there will be a great battle between the others and all of westeros. I think the knights watch and the wildlings will defeat them. I don't think for a second the battling houses of westeros will ever join forces. They hate each other to much.

As Maester Aemon said, "The Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler." The riddle is getting all the people of Westeros to be one cohesive group, the same way the Sphinx is one cohesive creature made up of different animals. They will resolve somehow. Besides, it'd make for a terrible ending to the saga to leave it all in a state of perpetual civil war. It would be better for GRRM to write that the Others won and overran the continent.

[Veltigar]

Why does Gorne's cave bypass the Wall's magical defenses? There's nothing in the text to suggest as such. Gorne, Gendel and army could travel over and through the Wall as well, they were humans.

It’s stated that Gorne’s way is a labyrinth like cave system that travels underneath the wall. You are right that we are not explicitly told that the cave system escapes from the magic in the wall, however neither is it stated that the cave system is subjugated to the walls magic.

Thus we have to leave the realm of certainties and rely on our wits to evaluate the likelihood of the claim. And there is a strong clue that the cave system bypasses the walls magic namely the fact that Gorne’s way is so secret.

The caves are at least thousands of years old. They are either formed after the formation of the wall (not likely) and thus they weren’t included in Bran the Builders plan to fend of the WW or – and this is more likely – the cave system is older than the Wall and yet we know of only one man who knew the route through the caves. Even the man’s brother didn’t know the way in the cave system.

That greatly increases the likelihood that the initial builders of the Wall did not know anything about the interlinked system of caves underneath their feet. And if they did not know that there was such a system they could not have planned for it in their defense plan. Thus it is more likely than not that the cave system bypasses the Walls magical defenses. EDIT: to summarize its Checkov's tunnel :cool4:

[tbc]

It’s stated that Gorne’s way is a labyrinth like cave system that travels underneath the wall. You are right that we are not explicitly told that the cave system escapes from the magic in the wall, however neither is it stated that the cave system is subjugated to the walls magic.

Thus we have to leave the realm of certainties and rely on our wits to evaluate the likelihood of the claim. And there is a strong clue that the cave system bypasses the walls magic namely the fact that Gorne’s way is so secret.

The caves are at least thousands of years old. They are either formed after the formation of the wall (not likely) and thus they weren’t included in Bran the Builders plan to fend of the WW or – and this is more likely – the cave system is older than the Wall and yet we know of only one man who knew the route through the caves. Even the man’s brother didn’t know the way in the cave system.

That greatly increases the likelihood that the initial builders of the Wall did not know anything about the interlinked system of caves underneath their feet. And if they did not know that there was such a system they could not have planned for it in their defense plan. Thus it is more likely than not that the cave system bypasses the Walls magical defenses. EDIT: to summarize its Checkov's tunnel :cool4:

If the caves exist (and aren't just folk memory of the Children living underground and eating things, which I think is more likely) they'd still be subject to whatever is in the Wall delineating the lands of men from the lands of the old races. It's a magical and symbolic barrier, rather than a physical barrier, in origin (it was originally far shorter than now).

[Veltigar]

If the caves exist (and aren't just folk memory of the Children living underground and eating things, which I think is more likely) they'd still be subject to whatever is in the Wall delineating the lands of men from the lands of the old races. It's a magical and symbolic barrier, rather than a physical barrier, in origin (it was originally far shorter than now).

Sadly, magic is not omnipotent in Planetos. It can do crazy things, but it does not have a mind of its own. The application of magic depends on the user, ergo if the user of magic did not know about the cave system he could not have included it in the magical barrier.

[TheSmilingKnight11]

As Maester Aemon said, "The Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler." The riddle is getting all the people of Westeros to be one cohesive group, the same way the Sphinx is one cohesive creature made up of different animals. They will resolve somehow. Besides, it'd make for a terrible ending to the saga to leave it all in a state of perpetual civil war. It would be better for GRRM to write that the Others won and overran the continent.

I don't think the books will end still in civil war. Someone will prevail in this war. But everyone thinks it will end in this great battle against the others. It's just too predictable and George rr Martin is not that way. The wildlings and NW will defeat the others while the rest of the realm fights for the throne.

[kjm16216]

I don't think the books will end still in civil war. Someone will prevail in this war. But everyone thinks it will end in this great battle against the others. It's just too predictable and George rr Martin is not that way. The wildlings and NW will defeat the others while the rest of the realm fights for the throne.

The more I think about all the ways GRRM wouldn't want it to end, the more convinced I am that the Others are going to win.

[TheSmilingKnight11]

The more I think about all the ways GRRM wouldn't want it to end, the more convinced I am that the Others are going to win.

You could be right. That would surprise some people.

[Vengeance]

People go too far with this - yes Martin subverts fantasy tropes, but he's still telling a story and stories must have a payoff, it seems every possible plot development has been cited as 'too predictable' by someone here at some point. It's to be expected when people have years and years to theorise and discuss, but Martin has had his ending in mind since the very beginning - if people spend so much time second guessing him they are probably just setting themselves up for disappointment.

[tbc]

Sadly, magic is not omnipotent in Planetos. It can do crazy things, but it does not have a mind of its own. The application of magic depends on the user, ergo if the user of magic did not know about the cave system he could not have included it in the magical barrier.

It's a geographical, magical barrier. Caves are no more immune than anything else.

[TheSmilingKnight11]

People go too far with this - yes Martin subverts fantasy tropes, but he's still telling a story and stories must have a payoff, it seems every possible plot development has been cited as 'too predictable' by someone here at some point. It's to be expected when people have years and years to theorise and discuss, but Martin has had his ending in mind since the very beginning - if people spend so much time second guessing him they are probably just setting themselves up for disappointment.

Do you think it's going to end in a great battle against the others? I think that would suck

[Little and Less]

I like Veltigar's posts because the biggest problem I have with the Others is why are they invading now? Why not 16 years ago during RR or a 1000 years ago? What makes this point in time so special? Why wait 8000 years?

I think Veltigar is on to something because the caves would be a way to go under the Wall - a great sneak attack. No one would expect this as long as the Wall still stands. And the idea that they have to deal with BR and Bran and the remaining COTF before they can full on attack is a great point. On top of the Wall being a great physical defense, (and we all know that physical defenses can be breached) there have to be other barriers that they have to cross in order to attack Westeros - otherwise why not do it already?

I think it has to be a culimination of events that GRRM has brought together:

1. That the Starks, in particular, have to be gone from the North (they or their ancestors were probably the Northern proclaimed wardens of the Others) . If there are no Starks in WF, none at the Wall (Jon is "dead" and Benjen MIA) that only leaves Bran, and he is situated north of the Wall, in the Others territory.

2. The NW have to be untrue, and have lost sight of their original purpose.

3. That a long Winter has begun

4. That the COTF have so few left and are dwindling - maybe this signals that the caves are also available for use and not guarded by the COTF.

5. That the Wall will be unmanned (see #2) and/or falls (either by horn or some other doom event).

6. That Westeros is in turmoil and its people are not ready for the upcoming War or possible famine/starvation

7. That there are no people North of the Wall to continuously burn/attack the Others while they are amassing; the Wildings have fled past the Wall (although this also makes their army of Wights possibly smaller)

8. That magic has returned/or is stronger than usual (which also makes the Others stronger by the way). If the Red Priests have stronger powers and dragons can be hatched, I'm assuming that the Others powers that may have laid dormant (creating wights perhaps) for 1000s of years are now fully activated.

Hmm just had a thought...maybe Benjen is alive because the Others need a member of the NW to get them through the Wall/caves. Maybe they can't figure out the cave system and need him, or what if there is another magical Weirwood door in the caves that exists, and again only a man of the NW who has sworn to the Old Gods can open it (as Sam did for Bran).

Or this is very crackpot, what if they have to keep one Stark alive in order to keep the Kings of Winter from rising? I've always felt that Benjen will contribute more to the story than being MIA or a wight.

[Vengeance]

I took it to mean they've only recently 'woken-up' from their EVIL 8000 year long slumber, and they're pissed

[Vengeance]

Do you think it's going to end in a great battle against the others? I think that would suck

Do you not think he's been building towards it from the PROLOGUE of GoT? Martin has reiterated in interviews numerous times that the game of thrones is a sideshow from the real threat that's brewing to the north. It's probably not gonna be all Pelennor Fields with the whole realm united as one, but there's gotta be a big confrontation

[Little and Less]

The only way I could see the WW/Others as a "good force" is if you consider them like a natural force - their purpose to purge the world in order for it to once again renew itself. I equate this like a naturally occuring forest fire that kills off the old/dead trees and allows new trees/brush to repopulate the forest from among the ashes. Or even winter itself.

[The Imperator]

I think it might be possible that the Others could become more sympathetic as we learn more about them later in the series. We've never had an Other POV so we don't know why they're even attacking or what they're justification for it is. For all we know, they may be just as "human" as the humans themselves. They too could also be just as grey as the characters we've met in the story so far.

[TheSmilingKnight11]

Do you not think he's been building towards it from the PROLOGUE of GoT? Martin has reiterated in interviews numerous times that the game of thrones is a sideshow from the real threat that's brewing to the north. It's probably not gonna be all Pelennor Fields with the whole realm united as one, but there's gotta be a big confrontation

I know there will be a big confrontation but I've been saying all along the lords of westeros will not unite against them. I think the battle will be in the beginning of ADOS and the rest of the book will be everything else.

[kjm16216]

You could certainly drag out the civil war longer if the dragons are otherwise occupied beyond the Wall.

To Little and Less's point, the Others resurgence is happening at the intersection of a number of events, including the uptick in magic, expansion of their habitat with the onset of winter, decline in their primary food source with the wildlings going south and the animals presumably dying off due to frigid temps, the weakening of CH and the CoF, the red comet. It could be due to, causing, or simply a coincidence with any combination of them.

[Veltigar]

It's a geographical, magical barrier. Caves are no more immune than anything else.

And that my sweet summer child is where you are horribly mistaken. Stormsend is built with the same magical barriers as the Wall and WF and yet all it took for Mels deux ex vagina creature to get inside the walls was a tunnel that went underneath it. Which means that tunnels can bypass magical defenses ergo Gorne’s way bypasses the Walls defenses.