The Others invasion

[Non-canon Name]

The only way I could see the WW/Others as a "good force" is if you consider them like a natural force - their purpose to purge the world in order for it to once again renew itself. I equate this like a naturally occuring forest fire that kills off the old/dead trees and allows new trees/brush to repopulate the forest from among the ashes. Or even winter itself.

This is how I feel, and what Martin always talks about. Others aren't evil or dead, they're just a part of a cycle. He kills happy characters and we keep reading; kills favorites and we still read. It's all about the balance. People in Westeros have become weak, and the white walkers are coming to cull the heard.

[tbc]

And that my sweet summer child is where you are horribly mistaken. Stormsend is built with the same magical barriers as the Wall and WF and yet all it took for Mels deux ex vagina creature to get inside the walls was a tunnel that went underneath it. Which means that tunnels can bypass magical defenses ergo Gorne’s way bypasses the Walls defenses.

Not buying that. Mel doesn't react the same way to Storms End and WinterFell as she does to the Wall.

[maarsen]

Not buying that. Mel doesn't react the same way to Storms End and WinterFell as she does to the Wall.

When has Mel been to Winterfell?

[tbc]

When has Mel been to Winterfell?

She hasn't, and she isn't interested in going when she could. She could have gone south with Stannis (she never normally bothers about whether the people around Stannis like her, particularly after the Blackwater), and therefore to Winterfell, but prefers to remain on the Wall, describing it as a "hinge of the world" and waxing lyrical about the power it holds.

[kjm16216]

And that my sweet summer child is where you are horribly mistaken. Stormsend is built with the same magical barriers as the Wall and WF and yet all it took for Mels deux ex vagina creature to get inside the walls was a tunnel that went underneath it. Which means that tunnels can bypass magical defenses ergo Gorne’s way bypasses the Walls defenses.

However she was carried under the wall by someone else, much the same way the wight that attacked LC Mormont, or the way Dracula was carried across running water in Bram Stoker's classic. May make a difference, may not.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I'm with Veltigar on the Wall's magic. If Mel can be under the castle in the drains and get her shadow baby popped out bypassing the magic, it's not that difficult to imagine caves being the same way at the Wall. Still, I think it matters little, as it will likely be the Horn of Joramun that brings the Wall down.

[tbc]

I'm with Veltigar on the Wall's magic. If Mel can be under the castle in the drains and get her shadow baby popped out bypassing the magic, it's not that difficult to imagine caves being the same way at the Wall. Still, I think it matters little, as it will likely be the Horn of Joramun that brings the Wall down.

Where is it then?

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Where is it then?

I'm a bit skeptical on this magic horn bringing down the wall theory as well. I know we have the dragon horn, so its not inconceivable to have the Horn of Joramun as well. However, I believe in the rule of two's. If you have one magical event, the probability of seeing another in the book is slim at best.

We have one hidden Targaryen, the likelihood of there being another is slim. We already have three living dragons, so the probability of dead dragons awakening from stone is pretty slim. GRRM does not like to go overboard with the fantastical.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Where is it then?

We don't know. however, it is extremely likely that Sam has it. Remember the old horn Ghost found with the obsidian cashe? Why would GRRM spend so much time on this horn only to have Mel burn it?

[Iroh]

This is how I feel, and what Martin always talks about. Others aren't evil or dead, they're just a part of a cycle. He kills happy characters and we keep reading; kills favorites and we still read. It's all about the balance. People in Westeros have become weak, and the white walkers are coming to cull the heard.

I think too...that the Others aren´t evil or dead...so when they invade Westeros it will not be good x bad..just a war for supremacy.

Like was the history of 7K : Children of the Forest x First Men

The problem about the Others is because their ice nature... they are like a superior species and must think that humans are just worms to be eliminated.

[Vengeance]

I anticipate the Others motivations will unfold as some sort of migration for survival, they are moving south because they have no choice or they have dwindling resources, rather than a grand evil plan to exterminate humanity.

That, I suspect, will be how Martin avoids the 'fantasy cliche' everyone is so desperately worried about...

[tbc]

We don't know. however, it is extremely likely that Sam has it. Remember the old horn Ghost found with the obsidian cashe? Why would GRRM spend so much time on this horn only to have Mel burn it?

Chekhov's Horn of Joramun then...

It's a valid point, and Sam wouldn't have been written to have it were it not important, but I can't conceive of Sam deciding to blow it on a whim in Old Town, and then hearing a slight rumble as the Wall comes down thousands of miles up north.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Chekhov's Horn of Joramun then...

It's a valid point, and Sam wouldn't have been written to have it were it not important, but I can't conceive of Sam deciding to blow it on a whim in Old Town, and then hearing a slight rumble as the Wall comes down thousands of miles up north.

He wouldn't know it was the Horn of Joramun, and he has been bringing it along and trying to get it to work since he got back from the ranging. Since magic is coming back to the world, it might be fixed some other way.

[tbc]

He wouldn't know it was the Horn of Joramun, and he has been bringing it along and trying to get it to work since he got back from the ranging. Since magic is coming back to the world, it might be fixed some other way.

I wasn't suggesting Sam did know it was.

Has he actually blown it yet?

[kjm16216]

IF that's the horn of jorumn, and IF it gets blown and impacts the wall, I think that strongly implies Sam is back at the wall. It would be very lousy reading for someone to be blowing it at Oldtown and the Wall come crumbling, and neither of them aware of what's going on at the other. Though arguably that's what happened when the dragon horn was blown at the kingsmoot and Drogon threw a tantrum.

For Sam to go back with the horn, he either needs to re-book passage by ship, or to travel up the King's Road through blizzard conditions, which would put the Wall's breach a long way off time wise, I think. That's not even considering that Sam would actually study to be a Maester for any time, which would just delay it all farther.

If that is the horn and it goes back to the Wall, I would say Patchface is a likely horn blower, whether accidental, malicious, or just stupid.

What do you think maester study is? Is that a 4-year bachelors? Maybe a ma(e)sters with a thesis? Do they have a good internship/coop program?

[the_one_who_was_promised]

I think they're going to come up from the water and invade the Wall from both sides. I don't know what kind of magic they have but I expect them to bring down the Wall.

I think you may have a point, looking at Patchface's prophecy: We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

Although it would make great literary sense not to mention an awesome cliffhanger if the invasion happened at the end of WoW, the "Dead things in the water" does seems to allude that the invasion may be close at hand. How close though is anyone's guess, as I always assumed that Jon and perhaps a few other characters such as Dany or Stannis would perhaps be there to help him fight the Others when the battle eventually begins. But with Jon out for the count and Stannis and Dany nowhere to be found, this scenario will not give any of them enough time to either recuperate or travel far enough to enable them to assist in the fight.

I guess there is no prerequisite that Jon needs to have recovered by the time of the invasion or that he has support to do so; after all, the situation at the Wall provides an ideal opportunity to enable the Others to pass the Wall.

I think Patchface could be the one to sound the horn, given the ominous signs we have of him and the Wall will eventually fall after some time. But how far they progress south into Westeros, I'm not sure. I think they might be inclined to go as far as they possibly can. I think they could reach the Trident but beyond that, I'm not sure.

On the HBO show's version of the HoTU scene, Dany was seen walking into the throne room of Kings Landing and the roof was dilapidated. Earlier, Tywin had told Arya that Harrenhal was once destroyed by a dragon, it seemed that this could have been a foreshadowing (as far as TV shows can foreshadow) of the state of the roof of the Red Keep, so it made me think that there could be a possibility that dragons will be used to destroy the Others, or perhaps it will signify that someone else such as Cersei, will try to burn Kings Landing.

[Tharvot]

"dead things in the woods, dead things in the water"...remember the letter to Jon from the wildling rescue?

I guess the Other invasion will happen sooner than we all think and it will change all the politics of the game of thrones...

Its happening already IMO, we just haven't heard report of it yet.

I think The Invasion will happen quickly in TWoW. Someone earlier had the right of it, we will get a chapter or 2 of whats new on The Wall chapters and then it will come. First 1/3 of the book.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I wasn't suggesting Sam did know it was.

Has he actually blown it yet?

I don't know, but he found out somehow that it wouldn't work. It's either Sam has the horn or Patchface will do something with it.

[Whitering]

However she was carried under the wall by someone else, much the same way the wight that attacked LC Mormont, or the way Dracula was carried across running water in Bram Stoker's classic. May make a difference, may not.

I got the impression someone (being Davos) was only needed to smuggle her in, silently, and because, well, I am not saying pregnant women are invalids or anything, but they probably aren't rowing any boats right before they are about to pop either.

edit, oh If Davos has my sense of humour, he'd have made some joke about taking on water when she gave birth.

[kjm16216]

I got the impression someone (being Davos) was only needed to smuggle her in, silently, and because, well, I am not saying pregnant women are invalids or anything, but they probably aren't rowing any boats right before they are about to pop either.

Agreed, it may be that only the shadow thing couldn't pass through the "magic" walls but she was perfectly capable of walking through them, but it was clear that Mel had to be inside the walls to birth it for it to do its job because of some magic in the walls at Storms End.

But my comment was in the context of WW passing through the caves under the wall. I'm refuting the idea that WW can go through the caves because the shadow thing could because the shadow thing could not go under its own power. The shadow thing was smuggled in utero and by boat rowed by man. The wight that attacked LC Mormont was carried through the gate by NW. These are different than WW or wights moving through caves or tunnels under the Wall under their own power, and there are examples of this difference being important both in ASOIAF (shadow thing at Storms End) and classical literature. Davos rowing Mel in is just a more direct parallel between ASOIAF and Dracula than Mel carrying the shadow thing in utero. Whether Mel could have rowed herself is tangential to my argument.