The Others invasion

[kjm16216]

The only way I could see the WW/Others as a "good force" is if you consider them like a natural force - their purpose to purge the world in order for it to once again renew itself. I equate this like a naturally occuring forest fire that kills off the old/dead trees and allows new trees/brush to repopulate the forest from among the ashes. Or even winter itself.

Not sure how you strike a balance with WW when they eat people. From a certain perspective, though, that's what the Wall did originally. By locking the wildlings on that side of it, the kingdoms of Westeros may have essentially granted the WW a giant game preserve stocked with "uncivilized" people considered expendable. From that perspective, Mance upset the balance when he gathered up the wildlings to migrate south, and Jon shattered it when he let them through the wall.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I have just been re-reading the series, and the horn that Sam is carrying either can't be the horn of winter, or is the horn of winter but requires more than just blowing it to work. I read on an e-reader so I can't find the exact quote, but basically on the Fist of the First Men when Jon finds the horn and dragon glass there is a line that mentions the horn making no sound no matter how what they tried. So either it's a dud or requires something more to use it.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I have just been re-reading the series, and the horn that Sam is carrying either can't be the horn of winter, or is the horn of winter but requires more than just blowing it to work. I read on an e-reader so I can't find the exact quote, but basically on the Fist of the First Men when Jon finds the horn and dragon glass there is a line that mentions the horn making no sound no matter how what they tried. So either it's a dud or requires something more to use it.

Sam found the horn was cracked. So something has to happen to it to get ti to work. Just a thought, if Euron takes Oldtown and gets the horn, could he somehow get it to work and blow it?

[fuseprime]

You know...there's been this big build-up to the Others for years and years, and nothing really BIG has happened yet. I mean...I'm thinking about everything in ASoIaF that I read. I'm really having a hard time picturing a massive Undead invasion and thousands of people dying. I think the trouble with the series, and this is my own opinion I pulled out of thin air, is that I think GRRM has trouble picturing that as well. I really don't think they will cross the wall. I hope to God I'm wrong, but I'm really having trouble picturing it.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

You know...there's been this big build-up to the Others for years and years, and nothing really BIG has happened yet. I mean...I'm thinking about everything in ASoIaF that I read. I'm really having a hard time picturing a massive Undead invasion and thousands of people dying. I think the trouble with the series, and this is my own opinion I pulled out of thin air, is that I think GRRM has trouble picturing that as well. I really don't think they will cross the wall. I hope to God I'm wrong, but I'm really having trouble picturing it.

There were a lot of wights at the Fist of First Men, and that was before the battle beneath the wall, which scattered a bunch of wildlings, and hardhome has a lot of fresh corpses to add to the army. We haven't even seen the Others in action yet, nesides small events.

[zuzu94]

I haven't read every post here so please forgive me if I say something that has been mentioned.

Here's a crazy theory. What if R'hllor is the evil God, and the Great Other is the old Gods and they are the good Gods. Maybe r'hllor is using the red priests to preach that the Great Other is evil when in fact he (r'hllor) is.

My reason for thinking he is evil, is because so far we know that the only God who has the power to revive people from the dead is r'hllor. We know that the White Walkers and Wights have been described as "dead things moving through the woods". Where did they come from? Who brought the WW to life when they haven't been seen in centuries and who gave them the power to bring dead bodies to life?

We know that Sam when pinned against the heart tree was saved by half a hundred ravens who all attacked the surrounding wights. That's when Coldhands came in (a mysterious character believed to be the Nights king, who is possibly part eight, so he still has all his wits about him)

I know this is not a strong theory, but could be an interesting one... Possibly.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I haven't read every post here so please forgive me if I say something that has been mentioned.

Here's a crazy theory. What if R'hllor is the evil God, and the Great Other is the old Gods and they are the good Gods. Maybe r'hllor is using the red priests to preach that the Great Other is evil when in fact he (r'hllor) is.

My reason for thinking he is evil, is because so far we know that the only God who has the power to revive people from the dead is r'hllor. We know that the White Walkers and Wights have been described as "dead things moving through the woods". Where did they come from? Who brought the WW to life when they haven't been seen in centuries and who gave them the power to bring dead bodies to life?

We know that Sam when pinned against the heart tree was saved by half a hundred ravens who all attacked the surrounding wights. That's when Coldhands came in (a mysterious character believed to be the Nights king, who is possibly part eight, so he still has all his wits about him)

I know this is not a strong theory, but could be an interesting one... Possibly.

I happen to believe that R'hllor is 'evil' so to speak, although that isn't the term I would use. In GRRM's world, there doesn't seem to be such a thing as good and evil, but I do see R'hllor as rather sinister, what with burning people alive etc. Just as a side point, could anyone tell me whether the Seven in the North are like the Old Gods in the South; they have no power (a GoT when Bran is speaking to the Weirwood asking to keep Robb and his Father safe, then Osha tells him they have no power because they were torn down.)

[KingHodorTargaryen]

GRRM stated there are no actual gods in Westeros. Old Gods are basically greenseers, Red God is shadow binders, Seven is just some junk made up, and the Drowned God isn't real, and the "resurrection" is pretty much CPR. However, while we know the Others aren't Gods, they are more than human, so I imagine them to be the opposite of dragons, as in ice made flesh.

[Ludd]

I think that the "killing" of Jon the LC means that the NW is no longer true so the precondition for the wall to fall is already in place.

The horn needs to sound. I suspect it will happen at Oldtown with Sam's horn. Perhaps Gilly will blow it - she IS connected to the Others through her father/grandfather/husband - ie her family worship the "Others"

[Ludd]

Look to the legends

I think there will be an out of space "sci fi" connection with both dragons and Others ie they are both aliens - not evil just alien.

The story of the moon breaking in half seems to suggest this

[Vengeance]

GRRM stated there are no actual gods in Westeros. Old Gods are basically greenseers, Red God is shadow binders, Seven is just some junk made up, and the Drowned God isn't real, and the "resurrection" is pretty much CPR. However, while we know the Others aren't Gods, they are more than human, so I imagine them to be the opposite of dragons, as in ice made flesh.

CPR?! Sandor split Beric in two and Catelyn was a rotting corpse...it's magic

[Ser Skwisgaar]

Hi everyone. I almost never post, but since ASOIAF revolves around this topic, I feel like I need to dip my toe in.

I have had multiple conversations with people over the last three years over how the stories will end. But more important to the end, is how the end will 'begin'. In other words - what is it that the White Walkers will do to Westeros? Honestly, there are only so many options.

Most consider the Other's to be a supernatural force - a tsunami on legs, if you will. They kill everything in their path, and then add the dead to their ranks. If this was the case, we would treat the Others as any "disaster film" cateclysm. Dozens of characters beloved by readers have their life stories developed, and then eventually succum to the meteor, the flood, the nuclear winter, the virus, or whatnot. The threat is eventually contained, and a new "normal" is balanced with a few core characters. Think of the novel World War Z and how it deals with the aftermath of a zombie apocalpyse.

But there is a huge difference between Others and dragons - dragons are not shown to be sentient. They're basically animals that CAN be trained and bred. No one is afraid that dragons are going to take over. The Others, though are complicated creatures - they have a complicated give-and-take relationship with Craster. So if they are looking to invade Westeros, my question isn't "how", it's why?

Are they going to rule? Well, that would be interesting, and I could see it being something Martin would relish. A central theme in ASOIAF is the concept of "the other" and how, at the end of the day, everyone has the reasons for being the way they are. Some are more good than evil, and some folks are just bad news, but no one is the all-powerful enemy that can't be somehow understood. Jaime & Cersie start and villain archtypes, and eventually grow to reveal three-dimensional people with feelings. Robert Baratheon may end up being the villain in these books! It's all about... well... your POV.

But the actual "Others" - do they want to rule? Do they want to take Westeros back for their own kind? Then what about Essos? If they do conquer, will humans be allowed to continue to live, and procreate - offering their children to the Other's as "taxes" so to speak?

Martin has told the stories of Westeros so well, by showing the somewhat happy times under the Targaryens (via the Dunk and Egg stories), and slowly revealing that really very little changes for the small folk - they are bullied and killed, taxed and imprisoned, their lives filled with hard work and grief. So how does this fit in with a supernatural race of ice-creatures?

If prophecies are truly "like a treacherous woman" I have a feeling that the Others are simply coming to fight. I feel like they may be coming to RULE. And if that is the case, what does that mean for everyone else in the books. How does one square, say, Jaime's storyline w/ Brienne with a GIANT HORDE OF ICE ZOMBIES. Why does Cersei's prophecy of a valonquar matter if almost everyone in Westeros is gonna die. Why does Cersei even matter?

Something tells me that Martin's got somethign else up his sleeve. Otherwise, we could be just looking at the Westerosi equivalent of the movie 2012.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

CPR?! Sandor split Beric in two and Catelyn was a rotting corpse...it's magic

I meant the resurrection by the Drowned God is CPR. Beric and Cat are different cases, as in shadow binding, or magic. I do believe that magic is real in this series, I just know gods are not.

[ser shrek]

I'm shocked no one thinks the others have already invaded. I think they showed up during Jon's assassination.

- Jon didn't feel the fourth knife only the cold.

- Dead things were already in the water and the trees at Hardhome

- We have already seen Others not far from the wall.

Jon has been temporarily removed from the game so the Others can move past the wall. They move with the cold winds and now that cold has moved south it seems obvious that's where they will go next. "The Winds Of Winter."

wow, this just got me even more excited

[The Dragon has three heads]

Hi everyone. I almost never post, but since ASOIAF revolves around this topic, I feel like I need to dip my toe in.

I have had multiple conversations with people over the last three years over how the stories will end. But more important to the end, is how the end will 'begin'. In other words - what is it that the White Walkers will do to Westeros? Honestly, there are only so many options.

Most consider the Other's to be a supernatural force - a tsunami on legs, if you will. They kill everything in their path, and then add the dead to their ranks. If this was the case, we would treat the Others as any "disaster film" cateclysm. Dozens of characters beloved by readers have their life stories developed, and then eventually succum to the meteor, the flood, the nuclear winter, the virus, or whatnot. The threat is eventually contained, and a new "normal" is balanced with a few core characters. Think of the novel World War Z and how it deals with the aftermath of a zombie apocalpyse.

But there is a huge difference between Others and dragons - dragons are not shown to be sentient. They're basically animals that CAN be trained and bred. No one is afraid that dragons are going to take over. The Others, though are complicated creatures - they have a complicated give-and-take relationship with Craster. So if they are looking to invade Westeros, my question isn't "how", it's why?

Are they going to rule? Well, that would be interesting, and I could see it being something Martin would relish. A central theme in ASOIAF is the concept of "the other" and how, at the end of the day, everyone has the reasons for being the way they are. Some are more good than evil, and some folks are just bad news, but no one is the all-powerful enemy that can't be somehow understood. Jaime & Cersie start and villain archtypes, and eventually grow to reveal three-dimensional people with feelings. Robert Baratheon may end up being the villain in these books! It's all about... well... your POV.

But the actual "Others" - do they want to rule? Do they want to take Westeros back for their own kind? Then what about Essos? If they do conquer, will humans be allowed to continue to live, and procreate - offering their children to the Other's as "taxes" so to speak?

Martin has told the stories of Westeros so well, by showing the somewhat happy times under the Targaryens (via the Dunk and Egg stories), and slowly revealing that really very little changes for the small folk - they are bullied and killed, taxed and imprisoned, their lives filled with hard work and grief. So how does this fit in with a supernatural race of ice-creatures?

If prophecies are truly "like a treacherous woman" I have a feeling that the Others are simply coming to fight. I feel like they may be coming to RULE. And if that is the case, what does that mean for everyone else in the books. How does one square, say, Jaime's storyline w/ Brienne with a GIANT HORDE OF ICE ZOMBIES. Why does Cersei's prophecy of a valonquar matter if almost everyone in Westeros is gonna die. Why does Cersei even matter?

Something tells me that Martin's got somethign else up his sleeve. Otherwise, we could be just looking at the Westerosi equivalent of the movie 2012.

Good post.

I've thought the same, but it's also something id like to see, ie is a zombie horror survival epic set in ASOIF.

still, I see the others as a factionalized species and not just one dimensional killing machines.

The pact and the wall are important here because it seems the first men who wished to live the old way and not kneel made a choice to stay north of the wall, why? If they knew what was there and could possibly return?

Separate to that is the pact and the blood of the first men, did the first men have power from and through the old gods before the pact or only after?

And if its only after then did all magic then stem from there or did it happen in other places as well?

[Heyo Winter Comin']

I meant the resurrection by the Drowned God is CPR. Beric and Cat are different cases, as in shadow binding, or magic. I do believe that magic is real in this series, I just know gods are not.

He didn't say the gods weren't real, he said they wouldn't make an appearance. And it's sort of misleading to say 'he said they weren't real'. He didn't.

[tbc]

Hi everyone. I almost never post, but since ASOIAF revolves around this topic, I feel like I need to dip my toe in.

I have had multiple conversations with people over the last three years over how the stories will end. But more important to the end, is how the end will 'begin'. In other words - what is it that the White Walkers will do to Westeros? Honestly, there are only so many options.

Most consider the Other's to be a supernatural force - a tsunami on legs, if you will. They kill everything in their path, and then add the dead to their ranks. If this was the case, we would treat the Others as any "disaster film" cateclysm. Dozens of characters beloved by readers have their life stories developed, and then eventually succum to the meteor, the flood, the nuclear winter, the virus, or whatnot. The threat is eventually contained, and a new "normal" is balanced with a few core characters. Think of the novel World War Z and how it deals with the aftermath of a zombie apocalpyse.

But there is a huge difference between Others and dragons - dragons are not shown to be sentient. They're basically animals that CAN be trained and bred. No one is afraid that dragons are going to take over. The Others, though are complicated creatures - they have a complicated give-and-take relationship with Craster. So if they are looking to invade Westeros, my question isn't "how", it's why?

Are they going to rule? Well, that would be interesting, and I could see it being something Martin would relish. A central theme in ASOIAF is the concept of "the other" and how, at the end of the day, everyone has the reasons for being the way they are. Some are more good than evil, and some folks are just bad news, but no one is the all-powerful enemy that can't be somehow understood. Jaime & Cersie start and villain archtypes, and eventually grow to reveal three-dimensional people with feelings. Robert Baratheon may end up being the villain in these books! It's all about... well... your POV.

But the actual "Others" - do they want to rule? Do they want to take Westeros back for their own kind? Then what about Essos? If they do conquer, will humans be allowed to continue to live, and procreate - offering their children to the Other's as "taxes" so to speak?

Martin has told the stories of Westeros so well, by showing the somewhat happy times under the Targaryens (via the Dunk and Egg stories), and slowly revealing that really very little changes for the small folk - they are bullied and killed, taxed and imprisoned, their lives filled with hard work and grief. So how does this fit in with a supernatural race of ice-creatures?

If prophecies are truly "like a treacherous woman" I have a feeling that the Others are simply coming to fight. I feel like they may be coming to RULE. And if that is the case, what does that mean for everyone else in the books. How does one square, say, Jaime's storyline w/ Brienne with a GIANT HORDE OF ICE ZOMBIES. Why does Cersei's prophecy of a valonquar matter if almost everyone in Westeros is gonna die. Why does Cersei even matter?

Something tells me that Martin's got somethign else up his sleeve. Otherwise, we could be just looking at the Westerosi equivalent of the movie 2012.

How do we know Dragons aren't sentient?

And, I think the comparison between Dragons and others is inaccurate. The Others should be seen as the icy equivalent of Melisandre, Moqorro et al., who are clearly glamoured.

[Veltigar]

How do we know Dragons aren't sentient?

IIRC Martin stated that his dragons - unlike Smaug and Glaurung in the Hobbit and the Silmarillion - are more like dogs. They are just beasts and not obsessed with treasure or anything like that. The Poster probably wanted to say that dragons aren't intelligent (i.e. that they are not interested in ruling or possesion.) but he chose the wrong word because dragons are definitely sentient

[tbc]

IIRC Martin stated that his dragons - unlike Smaug and Glaurung in the Hobbit and the Silmarillion - are more like dogs. They are just beasts and not obsessed with treasure or anything like that. The Poster probably wanted to say that dragons aren't intelligent (i.e. that they are not interested in ruling or possesion.) but he chose the wrong word because dragons are definitely sentient

Fair enough.

My basic point is that, if one draws a fire/ice comparison, dragons aren't the same type of thing as Others.

[MikeDC]

How do we know Dragons aren't sentient?

And, I think the comparison between Dragons and others is inaccurate. The Others should be seen as the icy equivalent of Melisandre, Moqorro et al., who are clearly glamoured.

This is something I've wondered about, but I have thought that the Red priests are more like the Others' Wights than the Others themselves. The others seem to be supernatural beings who look kind of like people, but it's not evident that they actually ever were people. Mel reminisces about when she was actually a person though, so I think it's more accurate to think of her as basically a glamoured wight. Basically

Others have wights and perhaps some equivalent fire like being(s?) that we haven't seen yet are the controlling powers of the red priests?

Dunno... that just seems how it should work if things are truly parallel.