Would Ned have legitimised Jon if he hadn't gone to the Night's Watch?

[mcb]

that had had more to do with tradition than anything. the title goes with the name Arryn.

Tradition notwithstanding, the example shows that Ned did "give a shit about pissing off lords".

Legetimising Jon because he loved him is enough of a point.

Nope, it isn't. Has Ned ever said anything to support your assessment? Has he had a single thought about how much he wanted to legitimize Jon?

he knew that raising Jon besides his other kids hurt Cat and didnt seem too bothered.

:bs: It bothered him a great deal, like everything concerning Jon.

[eggs]

Not having your bastard legitimised and actively insulting your wife is also tradition.

I think we have different definitions of tradition.

Simply, if Ned legitimised Jon he would been as big of an ass as a husband as Robert.

not even close.

[Minsc]

not even close.

Yeah, sorry Robert would have been better then Ned as he didnt go out of his way to threaten Cersei's and "his" children's inheritance.

[eggs]

Tradition notwithstanding, the example shows that Ned did "give a shit about pissing off lords".

how so? I dont remember Ned saying or thining anything about the Vale lords when he was arguing with Robert.

Nope, it isn't. Has Ned ever said anything to support your assessment? Has he had a single thought about how much he wanted to legitimize Jon?

what? I was just giving that guy a point. He didnt see a reason as to why Ned would ever legetimise Jon so I gave him one.

:bs: It bothered him a great deal, like everything concerning Jon.

Didnt bother him enough to even move Jon to the side. The only time I can think of is not sitting Jon with his other kids when robert came a knockng.

[mormont]

I think he might put his kid's happiness over all of that.

This doesn't even make sense. Even assuming for the sake of argument that Jon is Ned's, he has five other children, not to mention a wife and a father- and brother-in-law. Why would Ned put Jon's supposed 'happiness' above all of their happiness, prudence, the well-being of his House, political reality, loyalty, honour, duty, and everything else? He wouldn't. And we know he wouldn't because he didn't.

Literally all you have here is a dogged insistence that Ned would do it, that is used to dismiss every point made against the idea. There is no argument, no logic, just repetition of a claim that's taken to be self-evident. Unfortunately, that won't fly.

[eggs]

Yeah, sorry Robert would have been better then Ned as he didnt go out of his way to threaten Cersei's and "his" children's inheritance.

nah, I think most wives would be more concerned about their husbands being abusive drunk rapists and apathetic parents than they would be about a son being bumped down one notch.

[eggs]

...

Honestly, this whole argument has gotten off track. My main point was that if Ned wanted to do it Hoster Tullys feelings wouldnt stop him.

[mormont]

Honestly, this whole argument has gotten off track. My main point was that if Ned wanted to do it Hoster Tullys feelings wouldnt stop him.

I get that. But this is a bizarre reading of Ned's character. As I said, he values honour, duty, loyalty, and family. All of these would suggest that he certainly would take Hoster's feelings into account. Nothing suggests he would override them.

[The Wolves]

I doubt he would have legitimized Jon.

[The Wolves]

I get that. But this is a bizarre reading of Ned's character. As I said, he values honour, duty, loyalty, and family. All of these would suggest that he certainly would take Hoster's feelings into account. Nothing suggests he would override them.

Considering the fact that Hoster Tully has nothing to do with Winterfell, the North and what Ned does with his children. I seriously doubt anybody's feelings would matter to Ned besides Catelyn with what he does with his children

[eggs]

I get that. But this is a bizarre reading of Ned's character. As I said, he values honour, duty, loyalty, and family. All of these would suggest that he certainly would take Hoster's feelings into account. Nothing suggests he would override them.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. the arguements not really going anywhere.

[UnFit Finlay]

Ned was basically Roberts favorite person. I would think that Ned asking would be cause enough. It wouldnt have caused a civil war. The same can be said for Bran or Rickons future kids.

Ned asked him to spare Lady's life and Robert refused. Ned asked him to send Jaime Lannister to the Wall and Robert refused. Ned asked him to treat Aegon and Rhaenys' deaths as murder, not send assassins after Dany and probably more things that Robert refused to do. Robert doesn't know Jon, doesn't know Robb and doesn't know what the fall out from it would be. He'd just think it was asking for trouble for no real benefit, and he'd be right.

Robert might not want to turn him down and would let him down gently but he would turn him down. He'd probably offer to give Jon to Renly to ward with Edric Storm, or find him a Knight to Squire for but that'd be it.

Bran and Rickon's future kids would have a legitimate place in line and their descendants would still have Tully blood. Jon's "Bastarks" would be right at the bottom of the succession pile and eventually, at one point, one of them might decide that that's unfair and decide to do something about it. Look at how quickly the Karstarks turned against one and other when the Lordship of Karhold was at stake?

[eggs]

Ned asked him to spare Lady's life and Robert refused. Ned asked him to send Jaime Lannister to the Wall and Robert refused. Ned asked him to treat Aegon and Rhaenys' deaths as murder, not send assassins after Dany and probably more things that Robert refused to do. Robert doesn't know Jon, doesn't know Robb and doesn't know what the fall out from it would be. He'd just think it was asking for trouble for no real benefit, and he'd be right.

Legetimizing Jon is a pretty minor issure compared to all that.

Bran and Rickon's future kids would have a legitimate place in line and their descendants would still have Tully blood. Jon's "Bastarks" would be right at the bottom of the succession pile and eventually, at one point, one of them might decide that that's unfair and decide to do something about it. Look at how quickly the Karstarks turned against one and other when the Lordship of Karhold was at stake?

I actually thought that Jons family would be ahead of Brans and Rickons since he was older.

[mormont]

Considering the fact that Hoster Tully has nothing to do with Winterfell, the North and what Ned does with his children.

Hoster Tully is the grandfather of those children: his daughter is the lady of Winterfell and the North. These things were part of his price for joining the Rebellion. They have quite a bit to do with him.

I seriously doubt anybody's feelings would matter to Ned besides Catelyn with what he does with his children

Well, on this basis alone he'd never do it.

As for where Jon and his descendants would fall in the Stark line, this is exactly the problem: it's very ambiguous and could not be firmly and finally settled one way or the other.

[Minsc]

Legetimizing Jon is a pretty minor issure compared to all that.

By legetimizing Jon, Robert is complicit in directly insulting the Tully family something Jon Arryn is going to discourage.

[eggs]

By legetimizing Jon, Robert is complicit in directly insulting the Tully family some Jon Arryn is going to discourage.

which is gonna lead to what problems?

[Minsc]

which is gonna lead to what problems?

Increased tensions between the Riverlands and the North and the Iron Throne.

[Bluesnow]

Its already pretty much been stated... but I doubt Ned would want to give Cat cause to slit the boy's throat xP

[The Storm Queen]

But Jon doesn't need to be legitimised for this. Ned could just make him a minor noble and grant him some lands there. Much more simple and convenient.

Yes, or a marriage into a house like the Mormonts. There are actually enough possibilities that do not require Ned to destroy his marriage, alienate his allies and sow the seeds of a future conflict

[The Wolves]

Hoster Tully is the grandfather of those children: his daughter is the lady of Winterfell and the North. These things were part of his price for joining the Rebellion. They have quite a bit to do with him.

Well, on this basis alone he'd never do it.

As for where Jon and his descendants would fall in the Stark line, this is exactly the problem: it's very ambiguous and could not be firmly and finally settled one way or the other.

It doesn't matter that Hoster Tully is their grandfather he has NO power in Winterfell or the North. Ned even has the power to override Catelyn in any decision he makes even with their kids at the end of the day Ned Stark has power concerning what to do with their kids he doesn't even have to take the Tullys into consideration or Cat. And I really doubt that what he does with HIS son(Jon)is any of Hoster's business or any Tully. Seriously though what would the Tully's have done?