Does Conversion Mean Annulment?

[Kittykatknits]

She misses home. Thats all it means. I think I remember one scene of her praying to the Old Gods. Sansa likes the songs, and the ceremonies of the Seven from what I remember.

Her first meeting with Dontos had her going from tree to tree praying, she passed much of her time in the gods wood praying, and in GOT we learn that she was raised in both faiths. As several people have already said, she does not need to covert as she has always followed the old gods.

[Galactus]

Her first meeting with Dontos had her going from tree to tree praying, she passed much of her time in the gods wood praying, and in GOT we learn that she was raised in both faiths. As several people have already said, she does not need to covert as she has always followed the old gods.

Mind, I think at least part of that was that she wanted a reason/excuse to be alone, and no one went to the KL Godswood.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Her first meeting with Dontos had her going from tree to tree praying, she passed much of her time in the gods wood praying, and in GOT we learn that she was raised in both faiths. As several people have already said, she does not need to covert as she has always followed the old gods.

I dont think she needs to convert(I forgot, she was raised in both)...but she prefers the New Gods to the Old, and I havent seen much evidence that suggests that, that has changed.

[Galactus]

Out of curiosity, is there any tension between shinto and buddhism?

As to the OP, looks like the question has already been answered by others.

It's pretty complicated, there was tension, then syncretism (to the point where they were almost blended into one religion) then deliberate state-lead separation, and now it varies from institution to institution, but they're largely separate but often share worshippers.

[Sun]

If you don't like the answer them take it up with Martin. Robb was KitN yet he considered the marriage valid. His response was to write Sansa out of the will, not declare the marriage invalid. In fact, not a single Northman seems to think of this as an option.

To be fair, a marriage can only be annulled if it was proven unconsummated. Robb had no way of knowing if Tyrion had consummated the marriage or no. Also, what would be the point of annulling the marriage, while Sansa was still in Lannister hands?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

GeoRR: no one needs to be present to annul a marriage

Read: a letter from Sansa or Tyrion would be enough to get it started. And if I look closely at:

GeoRR: Well, why would a High Septon consider a request from anyone but the parties involved?

there is a third party involved: Tysha. Whether she is found or (convincingly) feigned, she could still claim to be legally married to Tyrion. There is proof enough for that and the HS disapproves polygamy. He'd start the annulment for Sansa&Tyrion immediately. And probably excommunicate Tyrion or the like. Maybe a few other Lannisters as well.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

I believe the key to Sansa's future annulment lies in the unconsummated state of her marraige, not her religion. Its brought up a few times in the text - in fact, this one of the reasons why Cersei allows Tommen to marry Margaery; she knows he's too young to consummate, so there is always a chance for reversal. Sansa is still likely "in-tact". Cersei also brings up the fact that riding horses can break the hymen and uses this against Margaery, but Sansa almost never rides; she even admits that she doesn't enjoy it. Prior to her annullment, a Septa will likely have to examine Sansa to prove that she is still a maiden. This proof will be all that is needed for the annullment, especially in Tyrion's absence. Who will be left to contest it? Cersei has lost her power; the Tyrells are ambiguous about Sansa and may even wish to get her to wed Willas again, Kevan is dead, Tywin is dead, Jaime is KG and uninterested in politics besides.

Sansa's annullment will be easy since she is a virgin. That's what makes me believe that she is going to fall in love with some boy in the Vale and somehow lose her maidenhead before marriage can be arranged. That would just be GRRM's way. It would ruin LF's plans and poor Sansa would get shafted because she followed her heart, or perhaps if Sansa becomes "soiled goods", LF will decide she isn't the prize she once was and he'll cast her aside. Sansa can live happily ever after with the boy she fell in love with and live a regular (non-courtly) life with lots of children and a doting husband. That's not a bad ending for the girl considering.

[Cravensbayne]

I know that if the maidenhead is intact, you can go back.

[Wynter Manderly]

im not sure if i read the "in the eyes of the gods and men" in asoiaf but that is mostly definition for me.

the religion is your preference, but marriage is made binding by witnesses (society).

society believes you are "legally" married then you are.

it would be like the oath at the wall, you choose which gods to give your oath to

and after that converting to another religion would not release you of your vows.

[Kittykatknits]

Mind, I think at least part of that was that she wanted a reason/excuse to be alone, and no one went to the KL Godswood.

I would agree with you, it certainly was part of her motivation. But, I wouldn't go so far as to say this also proves she didn't follow the Old Gods either.

I dont think she needs to convert(I forgot, she was raised in both)...but she prefers the New Gods to the Old, and I havent seen much evidence that suggests that, that has changed.

The evidence is there, it's why someone else referenced the snow WF scene. While building it, she decides to build the godswood, not the Sept. She also notes there is no Godswood for her to pray at up at the Eeyrie.

It's pretty complicated, there was tension, then syncretism (to the point where they were almost blended into one religion) then deliberate state-lead separation, and now it varies from institution to institution, but they're largely separate but often share worshippers.

Thanks. I knew the two beliefs shared worshipers but wasn't sure beyond that. It does sound similar to the Stark kids who were raised with both faiths.

To be fair, a marriage can only be annulled if it was proven unconsummated. Robb had no way of knowing if Tyrion had consummated the marriage or no. Also, what would be the point of annulling the marriage, while Sansa was still in Lannister hands?

No, that's not the only reason, just one of them.

Again, Robb's reaction to the marriage is that it is legal. The idea that a king in the North can render the marriage null never even comes up. The only solution considered possible is to disinherit her in his will. If a King could render the marriage null, why not just state this instead? Instead, it is not even considered as an option.

[Sun]

No, that's not the only reason, just one of them.

Again, Robb's reaction to the marriage is that it is legal. The idea that a king in the North can render the marriage null never even comes up. The only solution considered possible is to disinherit her in his will. If a King could render the marriage null, why not just state this instead? Instead, it is not even considered as an option.

Even if Robb declares the marriage invalid as KotN, that nullification will only hold if he wins this war and maintains the North's independence. If he loses, his invalidation will be invalidated by the sitting Lannister Kot7K, and Tyrion's children will inherit through their mother. Disinheriting Sansa, keeps Lannisters out of Winterfell, come what may.

[Lyanna Stark]

I dont think she needs to convert(I forgot, she was raised in both)...but she prefers the New Gods to the Old, and I havent seen much evidence that suggests that, that has changed.

It's fairly well references in the Snow Winterfell scene, how she carefully builds the Godswood, and how she thinks the place where the Godswood in the Eyrie should have been is empty, just like she feels.

Hence the Gods she is referencing throughout ASOS are the Old Gods. While she prays to the Seven in Kings Landing too, the last time we see her anywhere near a Sept is on the night of the Battle of the Blackwater. Since then, the only gods Sansa is associated with are the Old ones. Sure, she is married to Tyrion by the High Septon, but that is hardly a positive association.

[LordStoneheart]

That's not correct. Sansa has always followed both faiths, not just the Seven. She does spend time in the Godswood to meet with Dontos but much of that was praying to the Old Gods. No need for her to convert.

Okay, that's where I was missing some info. I couldn't remember if she ever actually worshiped the old until later. And I hadn't realized what religion the people in the Eyrie followed.

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay, that's where I was missing some info. I couldn't remember if she ever actually worshiped the old until later. And I hadn't realized what religion the people in the Eyrie followed.

They have a Sept in the Eyrie, but no Septon. Sansa builds Snow Winterfell on the spot where they meant to grow a Godswood, but no trees would grow in the stony ground.

She did pray in the Goodswood in Kings Landing.

As she is currently as of AFFC end at the Gates of the Moon, it will be interesting to see if there is a Godswood there.

[greensleeves]

Lyanna Stark is exactly right.

From Sansa's last chapter in AFFC:

Even the gods were silent. The Eyrie boasted a sept, but no septon; a godswood, but no heart tree. No prayers are answered here, she often thought, though some days she felt so lonely she had to try.

[Kittykatknits]

Even if Robb declares the marriage invalid as KotN, that nullification will only hold if he wins this war and maintains the North's independence. If he loses, his invalidation will be invalidated by the sitting Lannister Kot7K, and Tyrion's children will inherit through their mother. Disinheriting Sansa, keeps Lannisters out of Winterfell, come what may.

If Robb were to lose the war, that would likely invalidate the whole will according to the Lannisters. Do you really think they would honor Jon's designation as his heir or Sansa being disinherited? The element to focus on is that Robb and Cat viewed the marriage is legitimate and we can see that Robb never considers that he has the power to end the marriage even though it is recognized as a power grab by the Lannisters. Robert's will didn't mean anything either.

Okay, that's where I was missing some info. I couldn't remember if she ever actually worshiped the old until later. And I hadn't realized what religion the people in the Eyrie followed.

Yep, what LS said. Bronze Yohn has old god runes on his armor (or maybe it was just his helm?) but I don't remember if there was any specific mention of him following the Old Gods instead of the Seven. Could be there though, I just don't remember. But, otherwise, they worship the Seven. The Vale is where the Andals first landed after all.

[Lyanna Stark]

Yep, what LS said. Bronze Yohn has old god runes on his armor (or maybe it was just his helm?) but I don't remember if there was any specific mention of him following the Old Gods instead of the Seven. Could be there though, I just don't remember. But, otherwise, they worship the Seven. The Vale is where the Andals first landed after all.

Interestingly, about House Royce, they are a very old family and while they intermarried with the Andals, they predate them and trace their ancestry to the First Men. Their House words are also "We Remember", which is eerily similar to "The North Remembers". We also know Bronze Yohn Royce was a friend of Ned, so I don't think it's too far fetched to think the Royces may very well be of some importance in future novels.

They are also likely to have more Old God references and also a Goodswood nearby than the newer Vale families.

[Kittykatknits]

Interestingly, about House Royce, they are a very old family and while they intermarried with the Andals, they predate them and trace their ancestry to the First Men. Their House words are also "We Remember", which is eerily similar to "The North Remembers". We also know Bronze Yohn Royce was a friend of Ned, so I don't think it's too far fetched to think the Royces may very well be of some importance in future novels.

They are also likely to have more Old God references and also a Goodswood nearby than the newer Vale families.

Thank you. I also very much agree the Royces are going to have some importance in future books. I do hope so too as I'd like to learn more about them.

[Sun]

If Robb were to lose the war, that would likely invalidate the whole will according to the Lannisters. Do you really think they would honor Jon's designation as his heir or Sansa being disinherited? The element to focus on is that Robb and Cat viewed the marriage is legitimate and we can see that Robb never considers that he has the power to end the marriage even though it is recognized as a power grab by the Lannisters. Robert's will didn't mean anything either.

You have a point about Jon's legitimization, as an act done by TKiTN, not standing if Robb loses the war. But disinheriting Sansa, if he in fact inserted a particular clause to that effect in his will, would. That is an act carried out by Robb as Lord of Winterfell - his title win or lose the war- not as King. Legally, it should stand.

As to Robb never considering he had the power to end the marriage, I still say consummation: Cat & Robb take it for granted. You say that lack of consummation is not the only reason for annulment, I personally can't remember an example of another, from the books.

Having said that, I want you to remember that I'm not arguing that Kings definitely can annul marriages, if you return to my first post you'll see that I was only playing devil's advocate by pointing out reasons why Robb may not have considered it an option. it seemed like an interesting point to argue. AFAIK, based on precedence in the books, we only have the HS annulling marriage contracts.

[Lion of Judah]

Do we ever see a marriage where one side converts to the other? Ned continued to follow the old gods and Catelyn the new. The only problem I ever recalled was the Blackwoods converting, which seemed to intensify their issues with the Brackens, I don't believe marriage was involved though.