Does Conversion Mean Annulment?

[LordStoneheart]

The Faith of the Seven takes their shit seriously when regarding marriages and deviant sexual behavior. How I hated anything to do with the Seven when reading the books...

Now that they have gone militant, it creates so much problems. One is Sansa's forced marriage to Tyrion and how it will affect any future marriage for her if she decides to become Sansa Stark again and fight for the North as Petyr intends. But why is this a problem?

Sansa has always been all about the Seven. I'm not sure if she was actually worshiping the Old Gods in her meetings with Dontos. I assume not, since it was her trying to get rescued. But if does convert to the Old Gods, to her father's religion, the religion she will need to win support of the North, doesn't that kind of annul her marriage that took place in a sept? I'm sure the Old Ways have their marriage customs. I can't remember them, but I'd think this could be a loophole, and fairly easy one.

Any problems/complications here?

[GallowsKnight]

I imagine the Northerners are less picky about the conditions of marriages. As (?TV) Ned says "It's your gods with all the rules". So someone had a wedding they're married.

But I could see a High Septon annulling a Northern marriage (especially one of the members were followers of the Seven), but most of those weddings probably involve the Seven and a Godswood.

So no. But I think an easier loophole is "We never consumated, I was forced into it, plus he's a traitor"

[Idreamedofyou]

Don't know about the Faith of the Seven, probably Sansa would still be seen as married (in their faith), no matter what religion she decided to follow. But since she's already expressed interest in the Old Gods as well, I wonder... Will there be a time when Petyr&Sansa, or Sansa by herself will say 'screw this, I'm following the Old Gods, as Sansa Stark', creating a loophole.

But of course what GallowsKnight said about Sansa being a virging and forced into a marriage (and High Septon's influence) is very plausible too, as an easier way.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No. Once married, forever married. But the HS can declare marriages invalid from the start. For example because one side was already in a marriage. Hello Mrs Tysha Lannister...

[David Selig]

Sansa has always been all about the Seven. I'm not sure if she was actually worshiping the Old Gods in her meetings with Dontos. I assume not, since it was her trying to get rescued. But if does convert to the Old Gods, to her father's religion, the religion she will need to win support of the North, doesn't that kind of annul her marriage that took place in a sept? I'm sure the Old Ways have their marriage customs. I can't remember them, but I'd think this could be a loophole, and fairly easy one.

Sansa doesn't need to convert, she's always followed the Old Gods right from the start of the series. At first she preferred the Seven, but still prayed to the heart trees too, later on things have turned around.

[The Red Pope]

I think that the Northerners would accept that reasoning, but the High Sparrow would get pissed off and do anything he could to stop it.

Unfortunately the Faith holds quite a lot of power in the Vale so the lords there might not accept it unless they've got a lot to win from it.

[David Selig]

If being a follower of the Old Gods is enough to annul your marriage performed by a septon, then Sansa and her siblings are all bastards.

[Buckwheat]

David beat me to it. Eddard and Catelyn were married in the light of Seven as well, despite Eddard obviously following the Old Gods. And all the Northerners acknowledged their marriage as valid.

So it pretty much makes no difference in which religious system one marries, they are married anyway. I think Mel once suggests Stannis should marry under R'hllor once though, but I am not sure. Mel is a fanatic not many people listen to anyway.

[The Red Pope]

If being a follower of the Old Gods is enough to annul your marriage performed by a septon, then Sansa and her siblings are all bastards.

It might be, if you're not married before a heart tree as well. Married before the Old Gods and the new.

[Buckwheat]

It might be, if you're not married before a heart tree as well. Married before the Old Gods and the new.

But they are not, the books specifically say (Catelyn POV in AGOT) that they married in the sept at Riverrun.

[Lyanna Stark]

If being a follower of the Old Gods is enough to annul your marriage performed by a septon, then Sansa and her siblings are all bastards.

Plus Robb and Catelyn both think Sansa's marriage is valid and they would have enough reason to lean on the Old Gods to get it removed if it was simply a matter of doctrine.

[The Red Pope]

Plus Robb and Catelyn both think Sansa's marriage is valid and they would have enough reason to lean on the Old Gods to get it removed if it was simply a matter of doctrine.

They might have assumed that she was married before heart tree as well, and even if they knew she wasn't that would be an easy thing for Tywin to arrange if he needed to. In the mean time he could claim that Sansa exclusively worshiped the Seven.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Sansa and Tyrion's marriage is a chain that won't bind. At least, not of its own religious force. Does coversion mean annulment? Probably not, if you're the High Septon. Definitely yes, if she finds her way back to the North and a one of her brothers or her are ruling as King or Queen in the North. All she needs is an excuse and a little power and she is no longer married to Tyrion. An annulment based on her non-belief in the Seven could easily provide that excuse. Or she could desolve the marriage for any number of reasons and so long as she has power it will be so desolved.

[Simski]

Well, regarding Lady Hornwood's marriage to Ramsay Snow maester Luwin comments that the marriage was not valid because of the way it was done, likely meaning that it was done at sword point. Rodrik Cassel is in doubt but not the educated maester. As mentioned, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was not consummated and as soon as she is back in the North or just somewhere safe, she could come forth and claim that she was under threat of death and did not willingly join with Tyrion.

The High Sparrow is very strict about the rules and might not let them divorce because of that but on the other hand, he might likely annul the marriage as it was, strictly speaking, not done according to the rules in the first place. Cersei claims to act as Sansa's warden but one might argue that she was really her gaoler.

[Buckwheat]

They might have assumed that she was married before heart tree as well, and even if they knew she wasn't that would be an easy thing for Tywin to arrange if he needed to. In the mean time he could claim that Sansa exclusively worshiped the Seven.

Marrying Sansa in front of the heart tree may cost the Lannisters the support of the Faith, I guess.

[Lyanna Stark]

They might have assumed that she was married before heart tree as well, and even if they knew she wasn't that would be an easy thing for Tywin to arrange if he needed to. In the mean time he could claim that Sansa exclusively worshiped the Seven.

Why would they do that? Cat and Ned were married in the Sept in Riverrun and it was perfectly valid. Alys Karstark was married by jumping over a fire in the light of Rh'llor. It does not seem to matter what religion is used to make the marriage valid.

[Galactus]

I don't think there's that sharp a distinction between the Old Gods and the Seven, honestly. Or rather, it's more akin to the different roles of shinto and buddhism in Japan than anything else. Some people worship both, some either one exclusively, and there's no hard line between the two other than practice.

[The Red Pope]

Why would they do that? Cat and Ned were married in the Sept in Riverrun and it was perfectly valid. Alys Karstark was married by jumping over a fire in the light of Rh'llor. It does not seem to matter what religion is used to make the marriage valid.

Didn't Ned and Cat marry before a heart tree as well as in a sept. About Alys marriage, I have a feeling it will be very disputed if Stannis doesn't come out on top.

[Sun]

I got the impression that marriage in the books is a matter of legality rather than religion, meaning if 2 people bind themselves to each other in front of witnesses, then you are married in the eyes of men, regardless of the religious ritual followed at the ceremony.

Like several here have already noted. Ned and Cat were married in a sept, in a 7 ceremony, and it was legally binding.

[Weirwoodpecker]

Well, regarding Lady Hornwood's marriage to Ramsay Snow maester Luwin comments that the marriage was not valid because of the way it was done, likely meaning that it was done at sword point. Rodrik Cassel is in doubt but not the educated maester. As mentioned, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was not consummated and as soon as she is back in the North or just somewhere safe, she could come forth and claim that she was under threat of death and did not willingly join with Tyrion.

The High Sparrow is very strict about the rules and might not let them divorce because of that but on the other hand, he might likely annul the marriage as it was, strictly speaking, not done according to the rules in the first place. Cersei claims to act as Sansa's warden but one might argue that she was really her gaoler.

This is important, IMO....given the context of open warfare between Lannister and Stark, it is probably obvious to anyone with half a brain (except maybe Mace Tyrell...he seems kinda slow) that Sansa was coerced into the marriage with Tyrion. Everyone at court saw how Joffrey treated Sansa with open scorn...she clearly was not willingly becoming a Lannister. So technicalities of the law or the High Sparrow's religious zeal or not, she has a good case for getting out of her marriage to Tyrion (particularly with the lack of consummation, as people have said). The larger question of annulment aside, Sansa's future is still wide open....plus, laws aren't important...."power resides where men think it resides." :)