Dany ,the Dragonlord,and the Dragonbond

[Frey family reunion]

As for the warg/skinchanger debate, it's kind of like Kleenex, it's only one type of tissue paper, but through agressive marketing it is now a term that is used interchangeably with tissue paper.

As for the main debate, I've long thought that there is a connection with the magic that bonded the Valyrians with their dragons and the ability to skinchange. My guess is the magic requires a sacrifice of one with the blood of the First Man (or a common Essos ancestor of the First Men). I think Maegor's marriages ended not with executions but with sacrifices of "First Man" spouses (such as Jeyne Westerling) to bond new dragons with new riders.

[The Others Take Ya]

Firstly, digging your screen name( Others Take Ya) i think i shall make that a T-Shirt.

Awesome! I was really surprised it was available actually. Someday when I can change my little "rank" designation I'll make my other take me ice fishing too. Or skating. Will your Other take you, the wolfmaid, hunting I wonder? :laugh:

Secondly, i share the underpinnings of your post,i guess this theory kind of stem from what is written of Dragon-lore and the lords that ride them. I'm not saying that GRRM will draw from these myths but some things i felt haven't been touched on. A lot of the magical aspects of this world is talked about in the sense of the Starks while in my view Dany gets looked more as a political figure.

In dragon lore one thing has always remained constant that a Dragon only has one rider thus bonded to one " lord".The fact that she can feel them and they can sense her when she is near indicates a bond, but i think that now that she has ridden Drogon that bond to him will be solidified.

I don't usually read fantasy books, so I'm sure there's some common Dragon-lore I'm ignorant about. How interesting we're reaching the same conclusions. :cheers:

I'm sure that Dany's utter lack of knowledge about her own gifts from her bloodline plays into how we all perceive her in the novel too. There just isn't anything certain to talk about.

[wolfmaid7]

Awesome! I was really surprised it was available actually. Someday when I can change my little "rank" designation I'll make my other take me ice fishing too. Or skating. Will your Other take you, the wolfmaid, hunting I wonder? :laugh:

I don't usually read fantasy books, so I'm sure there's some common Dragon-lore I'm ignorant about. How interesting we're reaching the same conclusions. :cheers:

I'm sure that Dany's utter lack of knowledge about her own gifts from her bloodline plays into how we all perceive her in the novel too. There just isn't anything certain to talk about.

That's kind of what i'm getting at too, the Targs history,religion etc was lost in the doom and we really have no idea the extent of their connections with the dragons are. I use Warging here loosely because of the almost telapathic connections.I can say that they can Warg their dragons ,but there is something to the bond that makes them Dragonlords.

[wolfmaid7]

As for the warg/skinchanger debate, it's kind of like Kleenex, it's only one type of tissue paper, but through agressive marketing it is now a term that is used interchangeably with tissue paper.

As for the main debate, I've long thought that there is a connection with the magic that bonded the Valyrians with their dragons and the ability to skinchange. My guess is the magic requires a sacrifice of one with the blood of the First Man (or a common Essos ancestor of the First Men). I think Maegor's marriages ended not with executions but with sacrifices of "First Man" spouses (such as Jeyne Westerling) to bond new dragons with new riders.

I agree with you on the skin changing, i don't think that they can "wear" them the way the Starks can go into their familiars,but i believe their bond to Dragons is no less than the Starks its just different because of the creatures themselves.I like your last bit to interesting i never thought of that.

[Frey family reunion]

In dragon lore one thing has always remained constant that a Dragon only has one rider thus bonded to one " lord".The fact that she can feel them and they can sense her when she is near indicates a bond, but i think that now that she has ridden Drogon that bond to him will be solidified.

Actually that's not true. A dragon can have multiple riders but a rider can only have one dragon. For example, Aegon I and Maegor both rode Balerion.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I'm not saying she can "wear" them or anything like that,but that the way they may bond is via some type of telepathy. Goes into why there must be a particular Dragon for "a" rider.To me the quote seemed odd,so i think it was deliberate.

Sorry i thought i put it in ( ADWD,p.697)

I don't think she can, i think such a bond is only shared with Drogon as she is "his" rider.

Whoa triple post! And then multiple double postings following it in the thread... Please use the "Edit" button if you have something to add to your post, or "Multiquote" button to respond to multiple postings. Thanks.

As posted above Dany has not shown any warg/skinchanging characteristics as of yet save this screaming incident which is easily explained. Noone has pointed it out on this thread but she used the whip to get Drogon to go the direction she wanted (when he did listen) not any latent ability/connection. She whips the side of his face that she wants him to go and believes it his "attack" instinct that makes him go towards the direction of the pain IIRC.

If they did share a connection I would hope it would be enough to bring Drogon back to Dany when she is starving/dehydrating on the cliff...

[Frey family reunion]

Whoa triple post! And then multiple double postings following it in the thread... Please use the "Edit" button if you have something to add to your post, or "Multiquote" button to respond to multiple postings. Thanks.

As posted above Dany has not shown any warg/skinchanging characteristics as of yet save this screaming incident which is easily explained. Noone has pointed it out on this thread but she used the whip to get Drogon to go the direction she wanted (when he did listen) not any latent ability/connection. She whips the side of his face that she wants him to go and believes it his "attack" instinct that makes him go towards the direction of the pain IIRC.

If they did share a connection I would hope it would be enough to bring Drogon back to Dany when she is starving/dehydrating on the cliff...

I think it's more like the connection between Jon and Ghost, they clearly have a bond, but Ghost is not at Jon's constant beck and call and exerts a fair bit of independence in his actions.

[wolfmaid7]

Whoa triple post! And then multiple double postings following it in the thread... Please use the "Edit" button if you have something to add to your post, or "Multiquote" button to respond to multiple postings. Thanks.

As posted above Dany has not shown any warg/skinchanging characteristics as of yet save this screaming incident which is easily explained. Noone has pointed it out on this thread but she used the whip to get Drogon to go the direction she wanted (when he did listen) not any latent ability/connection. She whips the side of his face that she wants him to go and believes it his "attack" instinct that makes him go towards the direction of the pain IIRC.

If they did share a connection I would hope it would be enough to bring Drogon back to Dany when she is starving/dehydrating on the cliff...

Sorry about the triple post my multipost button is not doing anything except giving me a stalled screen so bear with the post....

Firstly, the whipping to get him to obey her has nothing to do with her possibly "literally" feeling his pain.The pain in question has to do with him getting speared by Haro, that was the incident of which i am speaking.

Secondly, if GRRM is incorporating some aspect of Dragonlore Myth -I think he is- there will first be a fight between Dany and Drogo for submission( which did happen). In this case Dany won by making Drogo submit to her.We see what happened to Q. Martell when he tried, he got roasted because (a) he was not Rhagel's true rider so the test of submission would fail and did.

Lastly, as Dany won the next step would be to "let" her ride him which he did because that would solidify the bond.

Think what happened in Avatar when Jake had to fly his own "Banshee" that whole thing is a central part in Dragonlore the same was incorporated in Eragon and Merlin.There must always be struggle of wills because Dragons recognize strength.

EDIT: For clarification

[wolfmaid7]

Actually that's not true. A dragon can have multiple riders but a rider can only have one dragon. For example, Aegon I and Maegor both rode Balerion.

Again sorry for the multi-post but it can't be helped.I believe we are both right from what i understand through the WIKI Aegon was "Dead" Maegor was king so ofcourse he could ride Balerion because he "became" his new rider because his old one had died.

[Frey family reunion]

Again sorry for the multi-post but it can't be helped.I believe we are both right from what i understand through the WIKI Aegon was "Dead" Maegor was king so ofcourse he could ride Balerion because he "became" his new rider because his old one had died.

So is the dragon bond, genetic?

[wolfmaid7]

In some Dragon myths it is some passed from father to son in the male line while others aren't so specific to gender;meaning it runs in the family. I'm guessing with the Targs its the latter seeing as both females and males were Dragonlords.

I'm guessing that of the 3 dragons one is a plant by the Old God's for their purpose and i'm guessing it's Viserion because of his description being like Ghost.It is said that is how the old god's mark the ones they choose.GRRM had said that one of the rider need not be a Targ and if the R+L=J is true then Jon would fit that category.He would have been the "plant" in the Stark and Targ litter because he is essentially both.

Edit: Dragon name wrong.

[Frey family reunion]

In some Dragon myths it is some passed from father to son in the male line while others aren't so specific to gender;meaning it runs in the family. I'm guessing with the Targs its the latter seeing as both females and males were Dragonlords.

I'm guessing that of the 3 dragons one is a plant by the Old God's for their purpose and i'm guessing it's Rheagal because of his description being like Ghost.It is said that is how the old god's mark the ones they choose.GRRM had said that one of the rider need not be a Targ and if the R+L=J is true then Jon would fit that category.He would have been the "plant" in the Stark and Targ litter because he is essentially both.

Do you mean Rhaegal or Viserion? Viserion was the white dragon.

[wolfmaid7]

Do you mean Rhaegal or Viserion? Viserion was the white dragon.

Sorry it was Viserion my mind was still on Rheagal roasting Q.

[Frey family reunion]

Sorry it was Viserion my mind was still on Rheagal roasting Q.

I posted a thread a little while back on my theory regarding Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal if you're interested. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/82070-there-will-only-be-two-dragon-riders/

[wolfmaid7]

I posted a thread a little while back on my theory regarding Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal if you're interested. http://asoiaf.wester...-dragon-riders/

I definitely like where you were going with that post, it may be that the souls were somewhat reincarnated in the Dragons and if that's the case i doubt it will be easy to have Rheagal submit to anyone indeed. I can see why there is such a bond to Drogon she already "mounted" him in real life so to speak :drool: . I do believe that the OG's marked Viserion for their own and he's the one that will not have a Targ named rider. Nice parallel!

I wish there was more info about the Dragonlords before the doom, hopefully some book or something exist out there that can share the extent of the bond between rider and Dragon.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

She doesn't dream through his eyes or feel his pain like the Starks do with their wolves, a connection exist but she is not a skin changer

[wolfmaid7]

She doesn't dream through his eyes or feel his pain like the Starks do with their wolves, a connection exist but she is not a skin changer

Skin changers and Wargs are different, a Warg has a wolf as a familiar. A Dragonlord which she is may be their version of a " Warg" except with Dragons. I don't expect them to have the same powers as the Starks. Plus,The Stark kids have the luxary of having people around them who encourage their gifts one way or the other. Dany is in a politicized and there is no one around her who know about Dragons. This is where i suspect Tyrion will come in ;as long as he keeps his identity a secret he might not be roasted.

Edit: Spelling

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Skin changers and Wargs are different, a Warg has a wolf as a familiar. A Dragonlord which she is may be their version of a " Warg" except with Dragons. I don't expect them to have the same powers as the Starks. Plus,The Stark kids have the luxary of having people around them who encourage their gifts one way or the other. Dany is in a politicized and there is no one around her who know about Dragons. This is where i suspect Tyrion will come in ;as long as he keeps his identity a secret he might not be roasted.

Edit: Spelling

Your posts are not making sense ie above:

1. "Skin changers and Wargs are different, a Warg has a wolf as a familiar. A Dragonlord which she is may be their version of a " Warg" except with Dragons. I don't expect them to have the same powers as the Starks"

What is your point? How different are wargs and skinchangers save the animal they use?

2."Plus,The Stark kids have the luxary of having people around them who encourage their gifts one way or the other."

Does Arya, Robb, or Sansa get any encouragement? Jon comes to understand what it means but in no way embraces or tries to learn about his gift.

3. "This is where i suspect Tyrion will come in ;as long as he keeps his identity a secret he might not be roasted."

Do you really think Tyrion will assist Dany in-cognito?

When I referenced the "whipping to steer" incident earlier I was not countering your argument about the pain she felt when Drogon got the spear jabbed in his back (tho as mentioned above the screaming is easily explained w/out warging). I was countering the assertion that a "warg-like" connection was established when she mounted. If that was the case then steering w/ a whip wouldn't be necessary. There is absolutely zero evidence that Dany is a warg, warg-like, or that dragons can even be warged/skinchanged.

btw you may want to stop posting on your ph if you cannot prevent multiple postings as I have seen accts deleted for that same issue.

[wolfmaid7]

Your posts are not making sense ie above:

1. "Skin changers and Wargs are different, a Warg has a wolf as a familiar. A Dragonlord which she is may be their version of a " Warg" except with Dragons. I don't expect them to have the same powers as the Starks"

What is your point? How different are wargs and skinchangers save the animal they use?

2."Plus,The Stark kids have the luxary of having people around them who encourage their gifts one way or the other."

Does Arya, Robb, or Sansa get any encouragement? Jon comes to understand what it means but in no way embraces or tries to learn about his gift.

3. "This is where i suspect Tyrion will come in ;as long as he keeps his identity a secret he might not be roasted."

Do you really think Tyrion will assist Dany in-cognito?

When I referenced the "whipping to steer" incident earlier I was not countering your argument about the pain she felt when Drogon got the spear jabbed in his back (tho as mentioned above the screaming is easily explained w/out warging). I was countering the assertion that a "warg-like" connection was established when she mounted. If that was the case then steering w/ a whip wouldn't be necessary. There is absolutely zero evidence that Dany is a warg, warg-like, or that dragons can even be warged/skinchanged.

btw you may want to stop posting on your ph if you cannot prevent multiple postings as I have seen accts deleted for that same issue.

To Clarify: V.Six skins is a skinchanger he has no bond to any particular animal he can literally jump skins. There is no bond. Case in point when Mel smoked his eagle in ADWD he lost contact and all the other animals he was holding turned on each other.Pretty much they said to hell with him.

To be a Warg is to have a connection with "your"" animal which is a wolf ( It is a Norse word meaning "wolf) .Jon would risk his life for Ghost and vice versa,the same can be said for Bran and Summer. The Stark children in their various POV'S have referred to themselves as being "one" with their familiar. Jon in ADWD his first chapter- I will find that quote later and post it- saying "Ghost is different,Ghost is him". Therein lies the difference.

Sansa and Robb unfortunately one is dead and the other's wolf is dead; their positions were- sorry to say political. Sansa wanted to be queen and Robb was trying to keep the North from crumbling.So no they had no one around them to help foster the gift once it would have become an issue.Rickon has Osha who is a Wildling is at lease knowledgeable about Wargs etc. So he's in good hands.

ADWD. Jon is spending a lot of time with the Wildlings at the wall,their is another Warg at the Wall though "his" familiar is a boar( his kind might be called something else),but he extended brotherhood to Jon. I think him being among people that aren't antagonistically looking at him as a Warg will be helpful. Also his own Direwolf, he is becoming increasingly aware of how strong his bond to Ghost is, the slightest touch and he can have Ghost sense of awareness.

Dany have several people around her and their motives are to see her advance when it comes to the throne,to them the Dragons are a means to the ultimate goal.She has no knowledge of them herself other than what she is learning off the cuff.

Tyrion spent his childhood and more reading about them and by the reason of plot and proximity seems the only one capable of telling her certain things about them. At lease when it comes to him being in her neck of the woods that seems not coincidental to the plot. So yes i think he's most in a position to help her learn a little more about them.

As to your assertion that there is "no" evidence of Dany or the Targs being Dragonlords which to me is their version of a Warg( Substitute Warg for Dragonlord). Think on this:

Not much knowledge about the Dragonlords survived the Doom,very very little in fact so we don't know the extent of their bonds.

The Valaryian Sphinx is a very telling description, a Dragon's body with a human head to me know more less a symbol than the COTF carving faces in the trees.We know that turned out to be true.

Maester Aemon told Sam in Oldtown before he died that " the Sphinx is,the riddle not the riddler".

So the idea is not baseless an at lease deserves discussion.

Edit: Clarification

[Mrs.Grumpy]

No.