Dany ,the Dragonlord,and the Dragonbond

[~Shiera Seastar~]

Since the Starks/blood of the First men were wargs, I had thought once that the Targaryens/blood of Valyrians have sorcerous ability (just maybe)? Valyrians of old practiced sorcery (enabling them to tame dragons, thus making them Dragonlords), but not entirely sure if the Targaryens used magic spells/dragonhorns to hatch/tame dragons by themselves, or they have sorcerers to do the magic things in their behalf? Anyway, don't want to derail the topic further........

More help (and hopefully not disasters) are coming for Dany. Tyrion can help; but first, he must convince Dany that he's not one of the "usurper's dogs" - and with any luck, Dany will hear him :P . Marwyn left the Citadel to become her maester. I do hope his intention is good, and he's not going there to kill the dragons (just like what the Citadel did to the last dragons). Moqorro also got a free ride from Vic and soon he'll be in Meereen. If he's on Dany's side, Mogorro will teach her how to use the dragonhorn, instead of letting Vic use it for his own motive. And if Quaite truly wanted to help Dany, she should tell her some magic dragon spells (maybe she knows something that might work) on her next apparition before somebody else try to steal one of the dragons. Dany has a few options on the way, but her usual problem is: who to trust?

This taming the dragons is such a very complicated business. Argh!

[wolfmaid7]

Hahaha i agree with that it bad business when you have something everyone wants. I'm not worried for Drogon, as far as lore goes and everything that has occurred between both of them thus far; its safe to say Drogon is her's and her's alone. The other two have yet to find their riders/dragonlord so with these horns floating around, Dany is in danger of loosing Rheagal and Viserion, but i dear say they were never her's,she may have hatched them but it will interesting to see who gets them in the end.

Edit: Spelling

[lady m]

I don't think ruling out the ability to dragon-warg or twarg or whatever you want to call it can be done at this point in the story. I don't think there is enough evidence to properly know it.

Yes, you can. Both warging - wolf specific trait - and skinchanging are exclusively First Men/COTF/old gods related, as is greenseeing. Greenseeers can control any beast. Dany has none of those traits because she shares the blood of none of these peoples. I would pose that the sorcery & horns of the Valeryians was to IMITATE the skinchanging gifts of the First Men, but they could not do it themselves.

Dany has a bond with the dragons, a maternalish one. But all children eventually leave home and become independent, just like Drogon did.

[wolfmaid7]

Yes, you can. Both warging - wolf specific trait - and skinchanging are exclusively First Men/COTF/old gods related, as is greenseeing. Greenseeers can control any beast. Dany has none of those traits because she shares the blood of none of these peoples. I would pose that the sorcery & horns of the Valeryians was to IMITATE the skinchanging gifts of the First Men, but they could not do it themselves.

Dany has a bond with the dragons, a maternalish one. But all children eventually leave home and become independent, just like Drogon did.

We can't rule anything because no one can say definitivley in this series what a Dragonlord is and the extent of the bond they have with their Dragons. As i have said repeatedly info about how to train a Dragon was lost in the "Doom" and only two people seem to know or ask the right questions concerning them.Tyrion because of the book about them in the WF library and his sheer facination with them and M.Aemon.

It was his desire to get to Dany to teach and show her the way along with his own words to Sam in Oldtown that should not be ignored. I've probably repeated M.Aemon's words a dozen times" The Sphinx IS the riddle and not the riddler" The Valaryian Sphinx is a Dragon's body with a human head.He was simply asking what is the answer to that unison? How can that unity be achieved?

I think a Dragonlord was the Valaryan version of a Warg,not "exactly" like the Starks because a Warg is nothing more that a person that has a intimate telepathic relationship with a Wolf. Therefore a Dragonlord is a person that has an intimate telepathic relationship with a Dragon.However,the key to accessing that bond will be different because well while Direwolves and Dragons are magical they are different creatures..A person has to actively be participatory with a Dragon as riding them is essential in that bond according to Dragonlore. Please no sensing them is maternal,maternal bond is many things but it is not sensing your child or mom coming near.

There is evidence if you look at the various religions at the core there is one theme"namely blood sacrifices" .The manifestation of magic in these places seem diverse only because the regions are diverse but some practices are similar.I say that to point out that we have no idea of the religion of the Dragonlords etc. So we don't know what kind of connections if any they may have to the seven kingdoms and the free cities etc,because like most Targs we know very little before the doom.

Now i ask you a question, how would the Dragonlords before the doom know of Stark Warging abilities to copy ? They were already taming Dragons well before the conquest of the Seven Kingdoms.

To play devils advocate what say you is the difference between Daenes Targ prophetic dream about the doom and Joreen Reeds dream about the sea coming to WF.Look at it to the core what is the difference between a greendream and a prophetic isn't that just symantics?

Edit: Spelling

[lady m]

Yes we can rule out certain things. First Men/COTF have a genetic marker that allows for warging and skinchanging. No one else in the world has this ability. Starks are descended from First Men, which is where they get the marker from. Even though it exists, it's still a recessive gene and very rare as an active one. It's not blood magic or sorcery.

Starks are not the only skinchangers, as I said, it's a recessive trait of all First Men, consult the Prologue of ADWD to refresh how rare it is. First Men first came to Westeros over 12,000 years prior to the current story and signed the Pact with COTF around 8,000 years prior. All of this is several thousand years prior to Valeria even existing. So First Men had been skinchanging for millennia before Valaria existed or they found dragons. It has been theorized quite a bit that a reason the Valeryians never tried to conquer Westeros was because they feared the skinchangers native to Westeros which didn't exist in Essos. The Valeryians achieved through sorcery what First Men have as a recessive gene, as I said, they're trying to immitate the FM.

[Frey family reunion]

Yes we can rule out certain things. First Men/COTF have a genetic marker that allows for warging and skinchanging. No one else in the world has this ability. Starks are descended from First Men, which is where they get the marker from. Even though it exists, it's still a recessive gene and very rare as an active one. It's not blood magic or sorcery.

Starks are not the only skinchangers, as I said, it's a recessive trait of all First Men, consult the Prologue of ADWD to refresh how rare it is. First Men first came to Westeros over 12,000 years prior to the current story and signed the Pact with COTF around 8,000 years prior. All of this is several thousand years prior to Valeria even existing. So First Men had been skinchanging for millennia before Valaria existed or they found dragons. It has been theorized quite a bit that a reason the Valeryians never tried to conquer Westeros was because they feared the skinchangers native to Westeros which didn't exist in Essos. The Valeryians achieved through sorcery what First Men have as a recessive gene, as I said, they're trying to immitate the FM.

I'm not sure that your conclusion is all that different from the OP's. I think she is merely saying that Dany has a link with her dragons (at least with Drogon) that approximates the links the wargs have with their wolves. Now I agree how that link came about is certainly different than the First Men who are wargs or skinchangers. My personal take on the ritual is that there is a Valyrian bloodline that allows an individual to become a dragonrider. Since the dragons live longer than humans, I think that a dragonrider can pass on his bond with a specific dragon to his offspring. However, if a new dragon is hatched, I think a new ritual has to be performed, which requires the sacrifice of a human (maybe of a particular bloodline) and a horse, to create a dragon that can be ridden. To create the bond of dragon with rider, I have a feeling that there must be some type of emotional connection between the human sacrifice and the rider (as there was with Drogo and Dany. I have a feeling that the Velayions were the original source of sacrifices for the Targaryens. However starting with their conquest of Westeros, I think there sacrifices became members of the royal families of Westeros through marriages with Maegor the cruel. That is, I believe that his wives were not executed, they were sacrificed. I think the dragon horn helped facilitate these sacrifices and was used in the place of an actual practitioner of magic. The horn was probably kept in Valyria where the dragon bonding rituals all occurred. Once Valyria was destroyed, I think that the Targaryens found themselves a woods witch that could perform the necessary magic.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not sure that your conclusion is all that different from the OP's. I think she is merely saying that Dany has a link with her dragons (at least with Drogon) that approximates the links the wargs have with their wolves. Now I agree how that link came about is certainly different than the First Men who are wargs or skinchangers. My personal take on the ritual is that there is a Valyrian bloodline that allows an individual to become a dragonrider. Since the dragons live longer than humans, I think that a dragonrider can pass on his bond with a specific dragon to his offspring. However, if a new dragon is hatched, I think a new ritual has to be performed, which requires the sacrifice of a human (maybe of a particular bloodline) and a horse, to create a dragon that can be ridden. To create the bond of dragon with rider, I have a feeling that there must be some type of emotional connection between the human sacrifice and the rider (as there was with Drogo and Dany. I have a feeling that the Velayions were the original source of sacrifices for the Targaryens. However starting with their conquest of Westeros, I think there sacrifices became members of the royal families of Westeros through marriages with Maegor the cruel. That is, I believe that his wives were not executed, they were sacrificed. I think the dragon horn helped facilitate these sacrifices and was used in the place of an actual practitioner of magic. The horn was probably kept in Valyria where the dragon bonding rituals all occurred. Once Valyria was destroyed, I think that the Targaryens found themselves a woods witch that could perform the necessary magic.

Thankyou Frey Family for putting that so eloquently :bowdown: Maybe i should change the title because i think people are getting hung up on the "Warg" part literally.But your right i think being a Dragonlord is a genetic trait. I suspect the reason why there was a book in the WF library was because somebody in the distant past probably thought they could Warg a dragon,but woe and behold no dice.

Dany definitely has the gene, in Dragonlore it is passed from the father which is cool because i suspect the Warging gene is like an X-linked disease passed by the mom hence the reason V.Sixkins couldn't pass on his and kept getting "runt" as he put it was because none of his women had it,but the Stark kids yeah because of their Tully bloodline( probably recessive) and Stark bloodline(Dominant) could.So both abilities represent Yin and Yang one cold one hot etc.

Note: If Jon is R+L son that would be interesting especially if R had the Dragonlord gene we know he(Jon) has the Warg gene.That said i don't think Bran is one of the heads no matter how powerful he may get, he doesn't have the blood unless he got it into him somehow (blood transfusion :cool4: ).

As too your hunch about the Valerions being a form of sacrifice by the Targs i did think of that, but then i was like man that's too much;its nice to hear someone else have thought of it.Nice post thankyou i think you did a great deal in helping make explain my point a bit more.

Edit: Grammar

[The Others Take Ya]

Yes we can rule out certain things. First Men/COTF have a genetic marker that allows for warging and skinchanging. No one else in the world has this ability. Starks are descended from First Men, which is where they get the marker from. Even though it exists, it's still a recessive gene and very rare as an active one. It's not blood magic or sorcery.

Starks are not the only skinchangers, as I said, it's a recessive trait of all First Men, consult the Prologue of ADWD to refresh how rare it is. First Men first came to Westeros over 12,000 years prior to the current story and signed the Pact with COTF around 8,000 years prior. All of this is several thousand years prior to Valeria even existing. So First Men had been skinchanging for millennia before Valaria existed or they found dragons. It has been theorized quite a bit that a reason the Valeryians never tried to conquer Westeros was because they feared the skinchangers native to Westeros which didn't exist in Essos. The Valeryians achieved through sorcery what First Men have as a recessive gene, as I said, they're trying to immitate the FM.

What is it that makes you conclusively rule it out?

What I see is this: We don't know how the first men got the ability to warg/skinchange way back in the past, its possible the genetic marker you speak of could have been added by sorcery thousands of years ago. We just know certain first men had it from the time Winterfell was founded (around the pact) based on the earliest kings having stone direwolves in the crypt with them. Please let me know if there are any other clues in the books as to when human wargs/skinchangers existed before that, as that's the earliest one I know of.

Another plot point that shows that men were taught things by the CotF is how ravenry is said to have been taught to men at the Citadel by them. This is a far less reliable account to go by because its recorded by men only, and we know the trees see/remember/experience the history more accurately.

From what the woods witch said to Lord Beric in ASOS:

Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists.”

so back when First Men first invaded Westeros, it sounds like fire was their weapon of choice, not warging. Plus they burnt weirwoods instead of using them when they arrived.

I think that leaves it open in the story that other blood bonds could have been applied/taught to other bloodlines too. Bloodlines like Targaryens. And she does go on ad nauseum about being the blood of the dragon.

BTW, I'm not saying this WAS the way First Men came by these abilities, I'm just saying I don't see anything that rules this possibility out. If you do, please share. :)

[wolfmaid7]

Yes we can rule out certain things. First Men/COTF have a genetic marker that allows for warging and skinchanging. No one else in the world has this ability. Starks are descended from First Men, which is where they get the marker from. Even though it exists, it's still a recessive gene and very rare as an active one. It's not blood magic or sorcery.

Starks are not the only skinchangers, as I said, it's a recessive trait of all First Men, consult the Prologue of ADWD to refresh how rare it is. First Men first came to Westeros over 12,000 years prior to the current story and signed the Pact with COTF around 8,000 years prior. All of this is several thousand years prior to Valeria even existing. So First Men had been skinchanging for millennia before Valaria existed or they found dragons. It has been theorized quite a bit that a reason the Valeryians never tried to conquer Westeros was because they feared the skinchangers native to Westeros which didn't exist in Essos. The Valeryians achieved through sorcery what First Men have as a recessive gene, as I said, they're trying to immitate the FM.

Lets look at Warging at its core,the Starks have the ability to connect intamately with Direwolves,it is not a regular creature in the context of this sereis they are "magical" and only the Starks can bond with them.The first men at lease some of them had the ability to skinchange and that is different as indicated by V.sixskins meaning the bond could be severed it was not a " mating for life". Putting that aside the Targs were one of forty families that controll Dragons but they seemed to be the only family of the forty that could "bond" with them.I will use this analogy "out of many one"; out of the first men one family ( Starks) out of the Dragonlords one family (Targs) that could connect with these magical beings.

I am simply saying that to be a Dragonlord is the equivalent of being a Warg,the abilities in the way the bond is expressed will be different . The Dire wolf will mate for life and will readily bond with its counterpart they "allow that" it is them and their human submitting to each other. A dragon recognizes strength prove yourself worthy to share me, make me submit. Drogon and Dany have already gone through this she made him submit he allowed her to ride him now she needs some training up.He has his rider and Dany her Dragon-bounded.

I am not disputing the Warging gene,but i am proposing that there is a Dragonlord gene in this series as well. In myth a Dragonlord was born with the ability passed from father to child.So far GRRM is being true to certain myths why not some elements in Dragonlore,i've already identified an aspect of the bonding in myth that Dany did with Drogon.

Edit: side note.

[The Others Take Ya]

One of the biggest problems I've seen on this whole forum is that people get really particular about saying "you can't warg a dragon. Warg is a wolf thing only. Warg is old norse for wolf."

Makes sense, warg is the old norse word for wolf, but not everyone knows this so people naturally use it in the absence of a word that has been yet to be defined by GRRM in the story.

So would the subject of this post be clearer to you if it read: is Dany possibly a latent dreki? This is the old norse word for dragon, same as warg is old norse for wolf. If we call Dany a dreki instead of a warg, would that help? Then we can go on trying to define exactly what a dreki bond could be. Yes GRRM hasn't used that term, (not yet anyway) but maybe it would separate the confusion many people feel when warg gets used on this forum.

[wolfmaid7]

One of the biggest problems I've seen on this whole forum is that people get really particular about saying "you can't warg a dragon. Warg is a wolf thing only. Warg is old norse for wolf."

Makes sense, warg is the old norse word for wolf, but not everyone knows this so people naturally use it in the absence of a word that has been yet to be defined by GRRM in the story.

So would the subject of this post be clearer to you if it read: is Dany possibly a latent dreki? This is the old norse word for dragon, same as warg is old norse for wolf. If we call Dany a dreki instead of a warg, would that help? Then we can go on trying to define exactly what a dreki bond could be. Yes GRRM hasn't used that term, (not yet anyway) but maybe it would separate the confusion many people feel when warg gets used on this forum.

I agree with you....Its funny i actually told some one that on another post that i would probably change it to Dreki in order to stop the confusion.I have never done that before...Do you know how to change the title?

[The Others Take Ya]

I agree with you....Its funny i actually told some one that on another post that i would probably change it to Dreki in order to stop the confusion.I have never done that before...Do you know how to change the title?

Yes that was me actually. :) I don't know if that's possible in forums for anyone to do but the mods, but I haven't been on here that long.

[wolfmaid7]

Yes that was me actually. :) I don't know if that's possible in forums for anyone to do but the mods, but I haven't been on here that long.

OHHH cool thanks for the egg on that one :bowdown:

[Tyrion_the_Oneironaut]

Will I ever see such sights again? On Drogon’s back she felt whole. Up in the

sky the woes of this world could not touch her. How could she abandon that?

And in Jon's first chapter, neatly bookending this thought:

My last friend, Jon thought ruefully. And I had best outlive you, or you’ll eat my face as well.

Ghost did not count. Ghost was closer than a friend. Ghost was part of him.

It's an interesting thought, to say the least. There's not one mention of Aegon the conqueror or his offspring using dragon horns. I find that to be incredibly odd.

[Frey family reunion]

And in Jon's first chapter, neatly bookending this thought:

It's an interesting thought, to say the least. There's not one mention of Aegon the conqueror or his offspring using dragon horns. I find that to be incredibly odd.

Aegon's dragons were much older than him and his sisters. The dragons dated back to Old Valyria. My guess is they inherited the bond with the dragons from their father. The real question is how did the dragon riders created after Aegon create their bond without the horn. My guess is they came used a witch to take the place of the horn.

[Tyrion_the_Oneironaut]

Aegon's dragons were much older than him and his sisters. The dragons dated back to Old Valyria. My guess is they inherited the bond with the dragons from their father. The real question is how did the dragon riders created after Aegon create their bond without the horn. My guess is they came used a witch to take the place of the horn.

I think it may have been a latent ability, like warging and skinchanging.

Coincidentally, Aegon II was the last Targ(I think) to ride a powerful dragon, and both his father and sister did not inter-marry their Targaryen siblings. Right around this time of mixing Targaryen blood with Arryn and Hightower all the eggs they were hatching yielded weak and small dragons.

[Frey family reunion]

I think it may have been a latent ability, like warging and skinchanging.

Coincidentally, Aegon II was the last Targ(I think) to ride a powerful dragon, and both his father and sister did not inter-marry their Targaryen siblings. Right around this time of mixing Targaryen blood with Arryn and Hightower all the eggs they were hatching yielded weak and small dragons.

I'm torn between the dilution of the Valyrian bloodlines and the nature of the human sacrifice they were using to create new dragon riders as to the cause of the stunted dragons. A third option is a foreign element introduced by the Maesters. Of course the Maesters are probably the ones responsible for the Targs marrying non Valyrian houses.

[Tyrion_the_Oneironaut]

I'm torn between the dilution of the Valyrian bloodlines and the nature of the human sacrifice they were using to create new dragon riders as to the cause of the stunted dragons. A third option is a foreign element introduced by the Maesters. Of course the Maesters are probably the ones responsible for the Targs marrying non Valyrian houses.

Ah, thanks for reminding me. I was going to theorize that.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm torn between the dilution of the Valyrian bloodlines and the nature of the human sacrifice they were using to create new dragon riders as to the cause of the stunted dragons. A third option is a foreign element introduced by the Maesters. Of course the Maesters are probably the ones responsible for the Targs marrying non Valyrian houses.

Yeah the diluting of the bloodlines may have had something to do with it,but i really think there is something there to the sacrifices.I'm declined to believe more on the aspect of the human sacrifices( suitable sacrifice) as key in waking the Dragons. I so love the idea about the Summerhall incident as a botched ritual,could have something to do with those people not being willing participants.

Mel had said something in the show version about if a lamb see a knife coming it gets scared and taints the meat so it no good.So i'm thinking such an unwilling sacrifice on such a scale would go all wrong.

[ViserionsFire]

I am not disputing the Warging gene,but i am proposing that there is a Dragonlord gene in this series as well. In myth a Dragonlord was born with the ability passed from father to child.So far GRRM is being true to certain myths why not some elements in Dragonlore,i've already identified an aspect of the bonding in myth that Dany did with Drogon.

Edit: side note.

I feel out of my depth here about the topic of warging and who can and who can't. But, we do have an example in ADwD of a Targaryen who has this "warging" ability in Bloodraven. Granted his mother was from the Riverlands, but she wasn't a Northerner or from the FM. So, did Bloodraven inherit his ability or is he just an anomaly? I really don't have a clue how the transfer of consciousness into another creature stuff works. To me, this is way beyond my comprehension.