From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIX

[Fender]

Random question that I don't hear about enough. Ser Shadrich, the Mad Mouse, what do you guys think he's gonna do with Sansa? How will he impede Sansa in becoming a "master player"?

[Newstar]

It's been one of our central speculations in this thread that LF has no intention of going through with the marriage to HtH, and has only proposed this to Sansa as a way to placate her for the moment.

I could see that, as he is dangling before Sansa what he believes Sansa wants (marriage to a suitably handsome, charming chap and Winterfell), but I think there's an argument that he's on the level: his unveiling of his master plan for Sansa at the end of AFFC would parallel Varys' unveiling of his master plan for Aegon at the end of ADWD (the two chessmasters showing their hands when it comes to their prize pawns), he was drunk when he was bragging about his scheme (suggesting he might mean it, in vino veritas and all that), and It could also be a mark of his overconfidence that he thinks he can pull it off. Just like Varys praising how awesome a king Aegon is going to be, we can assume that Littlefinger's scheme for Sansa is going to go spectacularly sideways, assuming it even gets off the ground.

I will be genuinely surprised if Sansa marries Harry the Heir. I've been genuinely surprised before by events in this series, but I just don't see it happening.

I wonder if we won't be seeing Harry move quite quickly from merely being a worthless charmer to a real scumbag under LF's watch at the Gates of the Moon.

Quite possibly. I hope GRRM is capable of illustrating what a scumbag he is without including yet another rape attempt in Sansa's arc, though. One was too many. Maybe she hears some more disturbing rumours?

[brashcandy]

Random question that I don't hear about enough. Ser Shadrich, the Mad Mouse, what do you guys think he's gonna do with Sansa? How will he impede Sansa in becoming a "master player"?

The Mad Mouse is pretty much one of those wild cards that we can't account for. Sansa meets him when she descends the mountain and we see that already she's on her guard with any newcomers in the Vale. That she is no longer taken in by the image of the noble knight is a good thing, and means that the Mad Mouse will not find it easy to entrap her even if he suspects she may be hiding something. I don't see him impeding her movement into becoming a player though, unless of course he actually succeeds in kidnapping her, and even then, the plot would hardly go so smoothly.

[Newstar]

I don't see him impeding her movement into becoming a player though, unless of course he actually succeeds in kidnapping her, and even then, the plot would hardly go so smoothly.

Yes. If he kidnaps her successfully and leaves the Vale to take her back to KL (presumably never to return), it poses a number of problems:

1) we as readers lose our eyes in the Vale (unless Tyrion makes a pit stop there much later in the books)

2) it seems like a waste of all the care GRRM took to establish the politics/relationships in the Vale if Sansa's going to get dragged away just when things get interesting, unless it's all resolved rather easily

3) it cuts off Sansa's training arc with Littlefinger

4) it removes Sansa from the succession/power struggle issues in the Vale, in which one would assume she would play some sort of role (given her relationship with Sweetrobin and her connection with Littlefinger)

5) it prevents Sansa from being able to funnel Vale resources to help the North, as has been hinted a few times

6) it makes Sansa a prisoner, again

7) Sansa's arc seems to be tracking north, not back south

Not to say it won't happen, of course (I was certain for a while there that Cersei and Sansa were going to have some kind of showdown, which would mean Sansa would have to head south again), but it makes a mess of things.

The funny thing is that all of Littlefinger's planning and know-how being undercut by some random hedge knight who nabs Sansa completely under Littlefinger's radar--just as Littlefinger whisked Sansa away undetected--seems like the sort of thing GRRM might do.

[brashcandy]

I could see that, as he is dangling before Sansa what he believes Sansa wants (marriage to a suitably handsome, charming chap and Winterfell), but I think there's an argument that he's on the level: his unveiling of his master plan for Sansa at the end of AFFC would parallel Varys' unveiling of his master plan for Aegon at the end of ADWD (the two chessmasters showing their hands when it comes to their prize pawns), he was drunk when he was bragging about his scheme (suggesting he might mean it, in vino veritas and all that), and It could also be a mark of his overconfidence that he thinks he can pull it off. Just like Varys praising how awesome a king Aegon is going to be, we can assume that Littlefinger's scheme for Sansa is going to go spectacularly sideways, assuming it even gets off the ground.

It is an interesting parallel, and of course, LF could be working long term here, allowing the marriage but planning for an ultimate entrapment of Sansa. He told her that young girls are always happier with older men, so if that isn't an attempt to lay the groundwork for himself, I don't know what is.

Quite possibly. I hope GRRM is capable of illustrating what a scumbag he is without including yet another rape attempt in Sansa's arc, though. One was too many. Maybe she hears some more disturbing rumours?

A possibility, yes. Randa Royce might also try to make another play for Harry at LF's instigation. Really, the man is so corrupt and devious, there's no telling what strategy he could use.

The funny thing is that all of Littlefinger's planning and know-how being undercut by some random hedge knight who nabs Sansa completely under Littlefinger's radar--just as Littlefinger whisked Sansa away undetected--seems like the sort of thing GRRM might do.

I'm reminded of how Sandor could have very nearly sabotaged all his carefully laid plans. Something to think about for sure.

[Newstar]

I'm reminded of how Sandor could have very nearly sabotaged all his carefully laid plans. Something to think about for sure.

Hahaha, good point. If Sansa had left with the Hound in ACOK--not to say that she should have--I'm pretty sure Littlefinger would have been completely blindsided.

It is an interesting parallel, and of course, LF could be working long term here, allowing the marriage but planning for an ultimate entrapment of Sansa. He told her that young girls are always happier with older men, so if that isn't an attempt to lay the groundwork for himself, I don't know what is.

No, I agree. Littlefinger could do what he did with Tyrion: engineer a doomed match, increase her dependence on Littlefinger through her subsequent unhappiness in the marriage (and reveal a helpful tidbit or two to lead her to mistrust and fear Harry in the event that he turns out to be something other than a total scumbag), and arrange for the elegant disposal of her husband when the time is right so that she runs into Littlefinger's waiting arms, even more isolated and reliant on him than previously. Hey, it worked the first time.

The funny thing about Littlefinger's quote about women being happier with older men is that even though it's a nod to Littlefinger's designs on Sansa and his intention to groom her, is that it seems like the bulk of matches/marriages or potential matches/marriages in the series--even the "romantic," not completely dysfunctional ones, or the ones that are written in a romantic and shippy way--are between younger women, often very young women (or girls, as we've seen) and substantially older men. So it's a bit of a mixed message there, to hold up Littlefinger's statement as proof of his creepiness while writing pairings between very young women/girls and much older men--especially the doomed, tragic lovers of the series (Rhaegar and Lyanna)--as romantic. I'm thinking mostly of Dany/Drogo here, but there was a substantial age difference for Rhaegar/Lyanna, Jaime/Brienne, and even Edmure/Roslin with their 11-year age difference. It also seemed like there was a big age gap between Alys (15) and Sigorn, where the age difference and Alys' youth were treated as no big deal and the wedding was written in a bit of a cutesy way, although I don't know that we ever got Sigorn's age (old enough to have a receding hairline, but a lot of guys have those as early as their twenties). I think there is some thought that these old dude/young girl marriages were super common during the Middle Ages, but I read an article debunking that claim by someone who seemed to know what she was talking about. I'm not a medievalist or anything myself, though. The relationships where the partners are very close in age seem to fare slightly better overall in terms of a comparative lack of dysfunction--Ned/Cat, Tyrion/Tysha (although I tend to think they would have run into problems if the marriage had lasted longer), Joanna/Tywin, Jon/Ygritte, Asha/Qarl the Maid, Oberyn/Ellaria Sand (not sure about that one, but she's old enough to have a 14-year-old daughter, so), Sam/Gilly (if they count), etc.--but it's no guarantee of anything (Robert and Cersei were only three years apart, and let's not even get into Jaime/Cersei).

[Fender]

Yes. If he kidnaps her successfully and leaves the Vale to take her back to KL (presumably never to return), it poses a number of problems:

1) we as readers lose our eyes in the Vale (unless Tyrion makes a pit stop there much later in the books)

2) it seems like a waste of all the care GRRM took to establish the politics/relationships in the Vale if Sansa's going to get dragged away just when things get interesting, unless it's all resolved rather easily

3) it cuts off Sansa's training arc with Littlefinger

4) it removes Sansa from the succession/power struggle issues in the Vale, in which one would assume she would play some sort of role (given her relationship with Sweetrobin and her connection with Littlefinger)

5) it prevents Sansa from being able to funnel Vale resources to help the North, as has been hinted a few times

6) it makes Sansa a prisoner, again

7) Sansa's arc seems to be tracking north, not back south

Not to say it won't happen, of course (I was certain for a while there that Cersei and Sansa were going to have some kind of showdown, which would mean Sansa would have to head south again), but it makes a mess of things.

The funny thing is that all of Littlefinger's planning and know-how being undercut by some random hedge knight who nabs Sansa completely under Littlefinger's radar--just as Littlefinger whisked Sansa away undetected--seems like the sort of thing GRRM might do.

The interesting thing about Shadrich is that he tells Brienne that he's looking for Sansa because the Spider offered quite a pretty penny to anyone finding her. I'm pretty firmly convinced that he knows it's her, or at least strongly suspects that it's her and would be very surprised if she wasn't. So I fully expect him to at the very least find a way to inform Varys, or whoever he believes will pay him the most. (Gold really seems to be his driving motive.)

[brashcandy]

The funny thing about Littlefinger's quote about women being happier with older men is that even though it's a nod to Littlefinger's designs on Sansa and his intention to groom her, is that it seems like the bulk of matches/marriages or potential matches/marriages in the series--even the "romantic," not completely dysfunctional ones, or the ones that are written in a romantic and shippy way--are between younger women, often very young women (or girls, as we've seen) and substantially older men. So it's a bit of a mixed message there, to hold up Littlefinger's statement as proof of his creepiness while writing pairings between very young women/girls and much older men--especially the doomed, tragic lovers of the series (Rhaegar and Lyanna)--as romantic.

Yeah, I mean I'm a supporter of the Sansan relationship and what could happen in the future, and that has a significant age gap as well. I think the irony will come about in that everything LF does and says, Sansa will ostensibly take to heart, but will end up using against him either directly, or indirectly. See for example her thoughts on lies and arbor gold in the first AFFC chapter. So yeah, she may be believe that a match with an older man is better, but look at the couple that she's most interested in so far: Lothor Brune and Mya Stone.

[Eend]

Hey guys. First time poster here.

I always thought that Sansa would outsmart and kill littlefinger by using the weapon that women have, and I don't mean tears. Just a little bit of forshadowing from what Cercei said. She would understand that it is necessary, and lead him into a trap. Can't find much textual evidence but it seems like the next logical step to becoming a player, and also fits the recent quote over on the tWoW boards that there is a controversial Sansa chapter (underage sex). I've always just seen littlefingers lust as his weakness.

[brashcandy]

Hey guys. First time poster here.

I always thought that Sansa would outsmart and kill littlefinger by using the weapon that women have, and I don't mean tears. Just a little bit of forshadowing from what Cercei said. She would understand that it is necessary, and lead him into a trap. Can't find much textual evidence but it seems like the next logical step to becoming a player, and also fits the recent quote over on the tWoW boards that there is a controversial Sansa chapter (underage sex). I've always just seen littlefingers lust as his weakness.

Welcome Eend :) Nice of you to make this your first stop on the board. While I would agree that LF's lust could prove to be his weakness, I don't know if it would be the wisest decision for Sansa to try to play to that for a number of reasons. I do think Sansa can draw from an overall "erotic" arsenal though, which includes things like her charm and social skills that Tyrion noted whilst in KL. She's considered a great beauty, so I'd argue that these things are always already in motion when it comes to her and she's perceived. However, she's also learnt from LF how Cersei depended on her beauty to her ruin, so suffice to say, I think Sansa will be a lot smarter in how she deploys these weapons.

[Danelle]

Milady the essays on Sandor’s swordsmanship the analysis of Sansa’s preference in men, were wonderfully written and offer a deeper insight on the characters and their motivations. Thank you!

The poster is just beautiful! Perhaps it is just me, but Sansa's fragile beauty, as depicted on the poster, reminds me of Natalie Portman. I should also note that I loved the detailed design of the armour that Sandor and Jaime wear.

Hmmmm...so which quarters of the fandom would this be? I don't suppose Ran will be saying, but I can't see anything "controversial" mattering to those who already hate Sansa.

Well, some readers think that Sansa is not clever at all and simply observes without actually understanding what is happening. Sansa is compared unfavorably to other players in the game. Some fans find her chapters boring and think that she is quite predictable and will never become a major player or trully independent. Perhaps they will be proven wrong in the forthcoming book.

On the other hand, is there a possibility that the controversy doesn't refer to Sansa's fans? LF is a character who is either admired or despised by fans. Every now and then there are threads questioning his abilities, placing him amongst the top players of the game, e.t.c.. What if in the controversial chapter LF does something really good or what if he commits a blunder? He is a smart man, but Sansa's presence makes him do silly things. The part where he told Sansa about his plan to marry her to Harry, explained his control over the Vale, mentioned Lynn Corbray's fondness for boys, Lady Waynwood's debts, reminded me of the typical scene where the villain explains his plan to the hero, right before the hero fights back and defeats him.

Hey guys. First time poster here.

I always thought that Sansa would outsmart and kill littlefinger by using the weapon that women have, and I don't mean tears. Just a little bit of forshadowing from what Cercei said. She would understand that it is necessary, and lead him into a trap. Can't find much textual evidence but it seems like the next logical step to becoming a player, and also fits the recent quote over on the tWoW boards that there is a controversial Sansa chapter (underage sex). I've always just seen littlefingers lust as his weakness.

Welcome to the forums!

I think that Cersei also told Sansa, what her own mother had said once that tears are a woman's weapon.

In the universe of asoiaf, tears of Lys are a powerful poison.

Cersei uses her looks as a weapon, but as LF told Sansa, she is no longer the beauty she once was. I seriously doubt that Sansa will seduce LF.

On the other hand, LF, Harry or even Lord Hunter, might sexually assault Sansa, but something like that can be considered controversial in general, not just for certain parts of the fandom.

Another possibility, might be a reunion between Sansa and LS. Fans are divided in regards to LS, some suggest that she is still Catelyn Stark, a rational woman, whereas others suggest that Lady Catelyn is dead and LS is a different creature, blinded by revenge. So far we have seen LS from Brienne's POV. Perhaps the controversy suggests a possible interaction between Sansa and LS.

Then again the controversy might be related to what GRRM had said about Sansa

The Lion’s Paw / Lion’s Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom… but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it’s a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

[Newstar]

I think the irony will come about in that everything LF does and says, Sansa will ostensibly take to heart, but will end up using against him either directly, or indirectly. See for example her thoughts on lies and arbor gold in the first AFFC chapter.

I just tend to side-eye GRRM being all "LOL Littlefinger is clearly saying creepy stuff about older men and younger women and Alayne is accepting it uncritically because she's not picking up what Littlefinger is putting down in terms of his designs on her" and on the other hand treating Dany/Drogo, a couple involving a big age difference and a very, very young girl, as the stuff of true love (not even getting into all the other problematic aspects with that relationship, of course). Strikes me as more than a little sketch.

I just hope it has nothing to do with her death or maiming ala Jon or Bran. Although these two are significant examples of rebirth into a greater destiny so that might not qualify as somewhat controversial.

I hadn't thought of it. Maybe Sansa gets maimed or disfigured in some way. It wouldn't be controversial across fandom since Sansa would still be alive (another Stark death would be universally controversial, I'm pretty sure) and since a lot of characters have gotten maimed or disfigured (including Starks: Jon's scars, Cat's hands, Bran, etc.), even young, female characters (Jeyne Poole, Pia, Brienne, Myrcella, etc.), but it would be controversial to Sansa fans or Stark fans in general since it seems so unnecessarily cruel to a character who's already been through so much.

...Of course, it seems to me that GRRM keeps raising the bar on what he considers "unnecessarily cruel." Just as an example, I was quite shocked by what Jeyne Poole endured (and what she was hinted to have endured) in ADWD. I know she's not a POV or anything, and lots of horrible things have happened to female characters over the course of the series, but her trials just seemed so gratuitously horrible. Ditto for Quentyn Martell's horrible, agonizing death, described in gruesome detail by Barristan; I'm not saying going after the dragons was the smartest move, but he seemed in all other respects a decent person trying to do right by his family, and GRRM gave him a hideously painful, slow death. I'm not saying anything similar to either of these things will happen to Sansa, but I saw in ADWD GRRM pushing the cruelty further than I thought possible, even after the atrocity parade of AFFC. I think TWOW is likely going to be the darkest book yet, and Sansa's arc and the things that happen to Sansa may well reflect that. Things may go to hell in a handbasket for Sansa in TWOW in a way that makes her previous problems look like a walk in the park. This may very well be whatever happens in the Sansa chapter that's going to lead some quarters of the fandom to flip out. (Maybe the rest of the fandom won't have any reaction because they're so desensitized to bad things happening to characters that it doesn't really register anymore when they do, LOL.)

However, she's also learnt from LF how Cersei depended on her beauty to her ruin, so suffice to say, I think Sansa will be a lot smarter in how she deploys these weapons.

That, and she seemed skeptical of Cersei's advice in other respects in ACOK, and "Look at what Cersei does and don't do it" is probably much more solid advice for Sansa (or anyone, really).

Then again the controversy might be related to what GRRM had said about Sansa

Yes, it could definitely relate to the UnKiss. The UnKiss' significance will probably be addressed as much as it's going to be addressed in TWOW, since it seems like the plot thread that GRRM would want to deal with before it's wall-to-wall (so to speak) Otherpocalypse in ADOS.

[Pod The Impaler]

Random question that I don't hear about enough. Ser Shadrich, the Mad Mouse, what do you guys think he's gonna do with Sansa? How will he impede Sansa in becoming a "master player"?

The Mad Mouse is pretty much one of those wild cards that we can't account for. Sansa meets him when she descends the mountain and we see that already she's on her guard with any newcomers in the Vale. That she is no longer taken in by the image of the noble knight is a good thing, and means that the Mad Mouse will not find it easy to entrap her even if he suspects she may be hiding something. I don't see him impeding her movement into becoming a player though, unless of course he actually succeeds in kidnapping her, and even then, the plot would hardly go so smoothly.

This is how I have imagined it as well. Some characters seem more dangerous than they are, but he is likely more dangerous than he seems.

Petyr hires him, but does he have any inkling of what the man is really after ? Odds are low - if the guy is small, and survived as a knight, he's done so by being smart. He's not so likely to be fooled by "Alayne Stone", but then again, he's never met Sansa before. I can imagine him kidnapping Sansa to try and ride her out of the Vale and claim a lordship, and from there it all goes to hell. (If that is even what he wants.)

One bit of possible foreshadowing: He is the Mad Mouse. Before Varys had "little birds", he had "mice".

Oh, by the way: as far as the "controversial" potential for where Sansa's headed, I think my Sansa / LF analysis did put one possibility out there that would make many people lose their minds with rage.

[Newstar]

Oh, by the way: as far as the "controversial" potential for where Sansa's headed, I think my Sansa / LF analysis did put one possibility out there that would make many people lose their minds with rage.

Care to share with the rest of the class? :D

Is it this (from the TWOW thread)?

Controversy ? Sansa gets with Littlefinger, willingly. That would be controversy.

I think that would be controversial on a level over and above something that "might" cause controversy in "some quarters of the fandom," though, especially given the abusive, manipulative nature of the relationship. It's also tricky to use the word "willing" in this context; Littlefinger's done such a number on Sansa--classic grooming behaviour--that consent under such circumstances would be meaningless.

Not to say it could never happen. It just seems like the sort of thing that would be a lot more controversial than what Ran implied.

[ArabellaVidal]

Speaking of Ser Shadrich and the connection Newstar has pointed out between Varys and LittIefinger's respective plans, I found it interesting that just as Tyrion has somehow derailed Varys and Illyrio's plans for Dany and Aegon, the Mad Mouse might serve a similar function. He might not have to actually kidnap or even attempt to kidnap Sansa in order to keep the parallel.

Other parallels,

- Varys has Tyrion spirited away, LF has Sansa spirited away both by water

- Varys and LF both seem to have a vested interest in Cersei's eventual downfall and are, in fact, working towards that end

-Aegon and the mysterious tapestries seem to indicate a Targaryen parallel

-there is also a sort of parallel in Varys and LF's connections across the Narrow Sea, with Pentos and Braavos respectively (other than LF having a Braavosi heritage, its also interesting how he put the Iron Throne in debt to the Iron Bank in Braavos and also had Penny and her brother brought over from Braavos for Joff's wedding)

-Penny is originally an LF piece and has now appeared in Tyrion's storyline while Shadrich, possibly a Varys piece has now turned up in Sansa's location

- also, since there has been speculation in this thread about Littlefinger possibly being Sweetrobin's father, there is an interesting parallel in Illyrio possibly being Aegon's father

If Varys and LF are running toward a confrontation, it might be that so are Sansa and Tyrion. On the other hand, these parallels might mean something else entirely.

On a separate note, I was re-reading Davos' run-in with Godric Borrell and realised that the lords of the Three Sisters are vassals of the Arryns. IIRC, these islands are near the Fingers. This may have implications later, or not, but I thought it was an intriguing piece of information.

[MysteryNinja]

LF convincing her that it was her fault her father died by going to Cersei and using her guilt to go along with his plans.

Reading this gave me a sudden flashback to The Lion King - Weirdly imagining Littlefinger as Scar and Sansa as Simba (My brain works in mysterious ways).

Anyway, props for the great Sansa discussion, and keep it going!

[brashcandy]

I just tend to side-eye GRRM being all "LOL Littlefinger is clearly saying creepy stuff about older men and younger women and Alayne is accepting it uncritically because she's not picking up what Littlefinger is putting down in terms of his designs on her" and on the other hand treating Dany/Drogo, a couple involving a big age difference and a very, very young girl, as the stuff of true love (not even getting into all the other problematic aspects with that relationship, of course). Strikes me as more than a little sketch.

I think it'll always be a little more sketchy in LF's case because of the whole connection to Sansa's mother and him trying to be a pseudo daddy-lover. What LF is basically doing is preying on Sansa's youth and innocence, and trying to portray himself as the experienced, cunning sophisticate whom she can rely on for everything. There's nothing inherent to an older man/younger woman match that will make it successful as he's touting, and we have many examples in the novels where these relationships are directly detrimental and exploitative to the women involved: Lysa/Jon, Walder Frey/his new bride/Sansa/Tyrion etc. So while I do agree that Dany/Drogo was very problematic, I still think Martin emphasizes compatibility and sincerity as necessary elements to making any marriage work.

On a separate note, I was re-reading Davos' run-in with Godric Borrell and realised that the lords of the Three Sisters are vassals of the Arryns. IIRC, these islands are near the Fingers. This may have implications later, or not, but I thought it was an intriguing piece of information.

I've always been intrigued by the Three Sisters too... Can't remember exactly why at the moment :) but perhaps they may play a role.

[Newstar]

If Varys and LF are running toward a confrontation, it might be that so are Sansa and Tyrion. On the other hand, these parallels might mean something else entirely.

I had thought that the parallels in Varys' vs. LF's plotting matched--in so far as they "matched" anyone--Aegon and Sansa. For Aegon, the fake parent and the chessmaster are different people (JonCon and Varys, respectively), as opposed to Sansa, for whom they're the same. JonCon seems to lack Littlefinger's sexual interest in his charge (although I guess that could change), and his love for Aegon's dead parent (Rhaegar) comes off as a bit more genuine than Littlefinger's supposed love for Cat. However, there are other similarities, which have been canvassed on other threads, between Aegon and Sansa, aside from the "fake identity with someone who loved my parent posing as my father" parallel, which seems pretty darn specific: the dyed hair concealing a giveaway trademark unusual family hair colour (Targaryen silver/Tully auburn), for one. Of course, Aegon may not be what he believes he "truly" is (a Targ), whereas Sansa is Stark to her bones, but the parallels seem quite strong. It doesn't mean that they'll be paired in any other sense, or even that they'll meet (although if Sansa winds up going back to KL for whatever reason, it seems almost certain that their paths will cross), but it seems like Aegon and Sansa mirror each other when it comes to LF and Varys' plots.

I found it interesting that just as Tyrion has somehow derailed Varys and Illyrio's plans for Dany and Aegon, the Mad Mouse might serve a similar function. He might not have to actually kidnap or even attempt to kidnap Sansa in order to keep the parallel.

Interesting. Tyrion served as the fly in the ointment for Varys' plans, but he didn't need to kill, harm or abduct Aegon: all he needed to do was persuade Aegon, which in turn led Aegon to go "off-book" and follow Tyrion's advice (which will probably have disastrous consequences in the long run, but let's leave that aside for now). As you point out, if the parallel holds up, Littlefinger's plans could equally be derailed by a third party who does something or, to parallel Tyrion/Aegon, says something that causes Sansa to decide to go against Littlefinger. Maybe Ser Shadrich/Myranda Royce/Mya Stone/Lothor Brune/some character we haven't met yet tells Sansa something about Lysa, Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir that makes the gears start turning in her head and coming to some unpleasant realization that will lead her to go against Littlefinger (which will hopefully work out better for her than I suspect Aegon going his own way will).

If Varys and LF are running toward a confrontation, it might be that so are Sansa and Tyrion.

I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility for Tyrion to go to the Vale, and Sansa might well still be there by the time he gets there, but I have my doubts as to Sansa and Tyrion meeting again, as it doesn't seem like there's any need for it. Also, my sense is that Tyrion's going to be tied up with Lannister/Casterly Rock drama for the rest of the books, which would probably keep him safely out of Sansa's orbit, assuming she's preoccupied with the Vale and/or the North.

[Akal Colzet]

New Poster here.

I have to say that I don't think Sansa has progressed much, she is still almost the same naive girl. Mentor or no Mentor I just don't feel it to be realistic to make her into a player in such a short time. In a year she might be closer to Margery but nowhere near LF, Varys or even Cersei. Unless GRRM makes a 5-6 year leap forward in time it won't work for me but as far as I understand those plans were scrapped.

[Fender]

New Poster here.

I have to say that I don't think Sansa has progressed much, she is still almost the same naive girl. Mentor or no Mentor I just don't feel it to be realistic to make her into a player in such a short time. In a year she might be closer to Margery but nowhere near LF, Varys or even Cersei. Unless GRRM makes a 5-6 year leap forward in time it won't work for me but as far as I understand those plans were scrapped.

Yeah, they were scrapped, doubt they're happening. A 1 year jump or so might not be out of the question, though. But what Baelish really had going for him was the years of careful planning, and his slowly incrementing sphere of influence. As far as influence goes, Sansa is already gifted; her mere identity is a gateway for acquiring a ton of support from certain factions of Westeros, depending on what she asks of them. To become a better player than Littlefinger, she really only has to understand how he uses people, how he manages to understand them enough to be able to somewhat plan for any action they might undertake, and to understand the rules of hospitality and the limits of how far the Lords Declarant should be willing to go to keep up the appearance of lawfulness. The years of careful planning are over, quick thinking and influence are the rules of the game now. It's easy to imagine Baelish creating an opening and Sansa taking advantage of it in this context.