Will the real Theon Greyjoy please stand up.

[Pod The Impaler]

You kind of blew my mind with the idea, because I've never considered the boys being his when I read the book.

Yeah. Interesting twist if true.

The kinslayer is accursed in the eyes of gods and men.

This might explain some of what's happened to him. A curse for what he's done.

Perhaps this is what Abel's Washerwomen meant when they called him "kinslayer" - not the Stark boys, but these boys?

Maybe it's a kinslayer's curse to Ramsay as well - since he murdered Domeric. Theon takes on his role (Reek), and will be his downfall ?

[mmp]

Re: GoT: Kicking the head and laughing...This doesn't directly match the squeamish Theon we see in CoK. (Tyrion is also a mis-introduced character; performing a somersault for Jon). I think GRRM wanted readers to immediately distrust Theon, and there isn't much more read from this chapter.

Moving toward CoK, Theon's role changes from spectator to headsman. It's obvious that he doesn't have leadership quality; in brief, he's a coward. But he's also not mature, which you can hardly fault any of the characters. So when Robb and Balon place him at a crossroads, Theon doesn't have the reader's perspective of the wiser choice.

I think siding with Balon is stupid but sensible. As Balon frames it, you're either a Greyjoy or a false-Stark. There's a lot of pride involved, duty to family, as well as the identity of a prince that Theon believes he can fulfill. Going back to Robb forsakes his family and solidifies his identity as a lackey to a stronger man.

Theon's relationship with Robb is a hybrid of best friend and voyeur. In GoT, Theon prods Robb to step into his responsibilities as heir to Winterfell. Theon, as unfit a leader as he is himself, helps Robb to become a leader, and takes vicarious pleasure as Robb's right-hand man. Robb's victories are the victories Theon ought to be fighting for his own family. On the one hand, he feels like a brother to Robb, but on the other Ned Stark is not his father, so his part in Robb's cause is that of duty to a brother, not to a father.

We could say that Theon's conflict is one of pride and personal identity. Is he himself a prince or can he be content to serve as the right-hand of one? In his reunion with Balon, Balon presses the value of the first. He convinces Theon, through guilt and threat, that he needs to become a Robb Stark and prove himself as a leader. For his father's love and home, Theon attempts to take on this responsibility. But it should be clear that the conflict was never between friendship to Robb and his own personal ambition (he didn't conquer Winterfell for his own pride sake, but so that his family and men would respect him), but between friendship to Robb and the love of home and father.

Shouldn't it be fair then to say that Theon, at his core, was not only not cut out to be a leader, but unwilling to be a leader. He was happy and content to be Robb's brother, and the idea that he aspired to be Robb's equal is not suggested in the texts any more than his early frustration with Robb in GoT. Once they go to war, everything's cool and they build a strong relationship from there.

Fast forward to ADwD. Theon's role in rescuing Jeyne is remarked frequently as Theon's sole redeeming act. I disagree. I think Theon has not changed "for the better." In particular, he's still a coward. Since his stay in the Dreadfort the real wolves (Reek, Boltons, Freys) have come to fill Ned Stark's power vacuum. Just contrasting the images at Winterfell in GoT (Robert's feast) from ADwD (Frey Pie...), how can we say that an "unchanged" Theon would behave any differently in such a terrible state. Is the idea that Theon started in GoT no different from a Bolton or a Frey, and his callousness to the beheaded man indicates this?

Again, I disagree. Theon is constantly in conflict. Even as he does terrible things, he knows he's doing terrible things. So what is there to judge from any of this? Theon is the Smaegol of ASoIaF and Reek is Gollum (or maybe the other way around). For as long as he remains alive in the series, he will just be cursed by what GRRM and Balon did to him. He's just cursed, that's all. Sadly, I don't see him getting the same kind of rich redemption story that, say, Jamie or Sandor are getting. I think GRRM's surrounded Theon in too much darkness and trauma to really take him any place other than the gallows in TWoW.

And no, I don't think the TWoW teaser is teasing. I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM kills Theon off in the prologue.

[Jslay427]

Theon in ACOK is trying to be someone he is not. We see unease when commiting some of the crimes when taking Winterfell. He's trying to be a true Ironborn, like his Uncle Vic, who has no scruples in his acts. Would Vic have said "there will be no flaying while I rule in the North" ?? Exactly

[Clariana]

Reading all this it occurs to me it might have been something of a relief for Theon to become Reek...

No power, no responsibility, abasement albeit some not inconsiderable physical discomfort.

And when Reek starts mutating back to Theon all those responsibilities come crowding back and he has to confront them all once again.

A truly tragic character.

[Cas Stark]

The twist of the tragic knife is that Luwin had just convinced him to take the black, where he would have had some chance for real redemption....and possibly no sack of Winterfell and everyone knowing the two Starks are alive...but then Reek shows up and Theon has one more chance to make the yet another wrong decision, based on saving face--which ironically leads to the destruction of his actual face along with his identity.

[juanml82]

Theon is an idiot. Not in the vast Balon, Cersei or Ned category. Rather in the 'too young to think ahead' category. His plan to take Winterfell was sound. The desire behind it - to be accepted by his father - is perfectly understandable, and would be good if his father wasn't the head of a gang of rapists. I don't think he ever considered he would have to murder, for instance, the miller's boys as a consequence.

He got trapped in circumstances he created himself and didn't know how to deal with. By doing so, he personally did considerable damage. But that was never his intent. He was, quite simply, unfit to lead.