Will the real Theon Greyjoy please stand up.

[Lion of Judah]

You know, I have to wonder, if Ned never died and Balon played the same move he did but Theon was still a hostage, would Ned actually execute Theon?

You guys are actually bringing up some things that make me have more questions, which is a good thing. Ironic considering I started the thread, but it's good for discussion I think. I really doubt that Ned would have executed Theon if Balon rebelled in some form. I think Ned would have gone back to war with Balon quicker than he would have executed Theon. Theon is Balon's last son and if Balon rebels then you have to get rid of him anyway. Why not replace him with Theon?

[Sullen]

Funnily enough, it occurred to me on my first reading. My impression is that Theon and the Miller's wife have been having an affair for years.

Considering he cannot recall her name, I find it quite hard to believe.

Theon also comments that the local gentry who have Winterfell surrounded would have no qualms about executing him, even though he'd been dinking and wenching with them, so they were clearly friendly enough towards him, while he was a hostage.

He also recalls that while he diced and wenched with Patrek Mallister for a while, that stopped right after his father learned of it and told Patrek that Ironborn are not to be trusted.

[SeanF]

Would Ned execute Theon if Balon rebelled? I think that's a really tricky one to answer. Ned's duty is clear - he should execute Theon. But then, we see time and again, Ned baulks at killing children because of their parents' crimes (eg trying to get Cersei to flee, rather than have her and her children executed by Robert) or for reasons of State (eg Daenerys); not to mention his fury at the murder of Elia's children. And, he could have pled duty as grounds to have Cersei arrested (and her children killed) or to consent to Dany's assasination.

In the end, I think he'd have found some excuse to spare Theon.

[Lion of Judah]

Considering he cannot recall her name, I find it quite hard to believe.

He also recalls that while he diced and wenched with Patrek Mallister for a while, that stopped right after his father learned of it and told Patrek that Ironborn are not to be trusted.

So let me ask you this...considering Theon's predicament being a hostage and Iron Born. In your opinion was he ever treated unfairly? Were the attitudes directed towards him overly disrespectful or offensive?

[Runaway Penguin]

As for Balon's rebellion, if King ordered it, Ned would do the chop. ut he would probably try to argue that the Ironborn be crushed conventionally and Theon is kept in reserve as new lord of the Iron Islands.

[Groat]

I agree about Ned not being able to do it. He raised Theon as a son for the past 10 years, for Ned to be able to take his head goes against everything we know about him. There was a post a while ago about possible marriage pacts Ned would want with Theon, who would have the right to marry Theon off, and if so to whom. Was Ned grooming Theon to be a lord of a castle in the North, or was he considering marrying Sansa to Theon and have Theon as ruler of the Pyke? You have to wonder what were the eventual plans for Theon and how much did Theon know. I think this really matters because it helps us define just what kind of a "hostage" he was. Obviously Theon could never be lord of Winterfell, but to be lord of a castle and a vassal to Robb, would that really be so bad?

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Welcome to the discussion, I clarified your qualms in the OP so that we're thinking along the same lines.

You bring up an interesting point about Theon's envy for the Stark children, we learn from his discussion with Lady Ryswell that deep down he wanted to be like the Starks. This raises a question of which held more meaning because Theon IMO was treated better than Jon. So did he desire to be a Stark or did he have daddy issues?

I think overall he desired to be wanted/accepted and to have a place is more important than being a Stark to him, since he doesn't even attempt to be honorable or exhibit any Stark traits. If he tried at being a Stark but failed, I would think you could argue it, but as I said earlier he's cruel, arrogant, always smiling and making light of things...Nothing like a Stark at all. He doesn't want to be a Stark.

[Sullen]

So let me ask you this...considering Theon's predicament being a hostage and Iron Born. In your opinion was he ever treated unfairly? Were the attitudes directed towards him overly disrespectful or offensive?

The simple fact that they took a child from a completely alien culture hostage and treated him coldy is unfair, disrespectful, and offensive, yes.

[Fetch me a block]

Would Ned execute Theon if Balon rebelled? I think that's a really tricky one to answer. Ned's duty is clear - he should execute Theon. But then, we see time and again, Ned baulks at killing children because of their parents' crimes (eg trying to get Cersei to flee, rather than have her and her children executed by Robert) or for reasons of State (eg Daenerys); not to mention his fury at the murder of Elia's children. And, he could have pled duty as grounds to have Cersei arrested (and her children killed) or to consent to Dany's assasination.

In the end, I think he'd have found some excuse to spare Theon.

Theon isn't a child. He's 21. Ned has killed younger men than that. Ned wouldn't have agreed to warding him if he was unwilling to be able to kill him

[Sullen]

I think overall he desired to be wanted/accepted and to have a place is more important than being a Stark to him, since he doesn't even attempt to be honorable or exhibit any Stark traits. If he tried at being a Stark but failed, I would think you could argue it, but as I said earlier he's cruel, arrogant, always smiling and making light of things...Nothing like a Stark at all. He doesn't want to be a Stark.

He did try to be a Stark (and fail)... that's what keeping Winterfell was all about.

He wanted to be loved, just, and fair just like Eddard.

Also, cruel seems a rather harsh word, whenever we are in Theon's head, he seems to somehow dislike violence and feels great guilt for his actions. Those are not signs of a cruel man.

[Lion of Judah]

The simple fact that they took a child from a completely alien culture hostage and treated him coldy is unfair, disrespectful, and offensive, yes.

This is a tough angle for me to take because I don't disagree with the point you're making. However I can't help but consider the cultural representation of being Iron Born and being from the North. Now I'm not implying to discriminate against being Iron Born, but which culture would give him better virtues? Shouldn't that be considered as well?

[Minstral]

No we do not and it makes me wonder why such a disconnect between lords and the people they are meant to rule over. The extent that they are viewed as collateral damage is astounding and not only Theon is guilty of this.

In this one instance Tyrion is arming those mountain clans to fight against those he regards as his enemies,the lords and people of the Vale. Tyrion was never meant to rule over them so I don't see why he would feel a kindness for them.

[Lion of Judah]

In this one instance Tyrion is arming those mountain clans to fight against those he regards as his enemies,the lords and people of the Vale. Tyrion was never meant to rule over them so I don't see why he would feel a kindness for them.

This is reasonable, but when Robb takes the war to the Westerlands does he ever worry about the people there? I don't really recall that he ever does, but I could be mistaken.

[Sullen]

This is a tough angle for me to take because I don't disagree with the point you're making. However I can't help but consider the cultural representation of being Iron Born and being from the North. Now I'm not implying to discriminate against being Iron Born, but which culture would give him better virtues? Shouldn't that be considered as well?

While it is true that keeping him in the North would have helped him develop better virtues, I believe that for his re-education to truly work, Theon would need to feel accepted and loved, which he was not while in Winterfell.

[Penguin king]

I really don't understand the point of this topic. So we're supposed to find the "Real" Theon Grayjoy by looking at his actions while he was at his most isolated,and desperate.

I guess we can find out all we need to know about the "Real" Catelyn Tully by analysing her interactions with that Innocent fool she killed.

[Lion of Judah]

I really don't understand the point of this topic. So we're supposed to find the "Real" Theon Grayjoy by looking at his actions while he was at his most isolated,and desperate.

I guess we can find out all we need to know about the "Real" Catelyn Tully by analysing her interactions with that Innocent fool she killed.

It's simple really, if you don't get it and don't like it, don't participate.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

He did try to be a Stark (and fail)... that's what keeping Winterfell was all about.

He wanted to be loved, just, and fair just like Eddard.

Also, cruel seems a rather harsh word, whenever we are in Theon's head, he seems to somehow dislike violence and feels great guilt for his actions. Those are not signs of a cruel man.

You mean kicking the head of someone who was just beheaded and laughing about it is not cruel? Whatever happened to him after Reek is entirely different since Theon died the day the Bastard's Boys took him.

[Sullen]

You mean kicking the head of someone who was just beheaded and laughing about it is not cruel?

Tasteless, but not cruel.

Theon's behavior does not cause pain to anyone in that instance.

[Lion of Judah]

While it is true that keeping him in the North would have helped him develop better virtues, I believe that for his re-education to truly work, Theon would need to feel accepted and loved, which he was not while in Winterfell.

Interesting because his actions while in Winterfell could be an outward expression of that neglect. What I find odd as well was his execution of the kennel master. Theon is Iron Born now, but when the kennel master says Eddard did his own killings Theon obliged. There is an inner battle going on within him, if he is truly Iron Born why care how Ned executes? And the fact that he made such a mess of it was symbolic as well.

[Minstral]

This is reasonable, but when Robb takes the war to the Westerlands does he ever worry about the people there? I don't really recall that he ever does, but I could be mistaken.

The whole plan was to "live off the land" just as Tywin was doing to the Riverlands. He is poutting his "people" first before the Westernmen. It would have meant also sacking towns and taking crops, which was a common tool of war in the middle ages to starve out your enemies.