Will the real Theon Greyjoy please stand up.

[Lion of Judah]

While reading and partaking in several threads the question about who is Theon Greyjoy really dawned on me. So let's take a look at the real Theon Greyjoy and discuss, I can think of no better place to begin than with his victims. Questions always arise about what Theon did or didn't 'deserve,' but it's time for some victims advocacy. Forget for a minute what Theon Greyjoy did or didn't deserve and let's talk about what his victims did and didn't deserve.

Rodrick Cassel who trained Theon at arms alongside Robb and Jon, only for Theon to repay him by threatening to kill his daughter Beth.

"This is craven," Ser Rodrik said. "To use a child so . . . this is despicable."

"...Forswear your oath and murder me, and you will watch your little Beth strangle at the end of a rope."

...The old knight drew himself up straight. "I offer myself in my daughter's place. Release her, and take me as your hostage. Surely the castellan of Winterfell is worth more than a child."

"If this host is still in arms before my gate when the sun sets, Beth will hang," said Theon. "Another hostage will follow her to the grave at first light, and another at sunset. Every dawn and every dusk will mean a death, until you are gone. I have no lack of hostages."

Beth Cassel who grew up with Theon. Is she alive? Is she dead? Is she prisoner? What did he do to her?

The people of Winterfell who treated Theon with respect and called him friend since the day their liege lord brought him to Winterfell. Embraced him and shared drink and conversation as they would with a brother.

"Farlen was as likely a suspect as any, so Theon sat in judgment, called him guilty, and condemned him to death. Even that went sour. As he knelt to the block, the kennelmaster said, "M'lord Eddard always did his own killings." Theon had to take the axe himself or look a weakling. His hands were sweating, so the shaft twisted in his grip as he swung and the first blow landed between Farlen's shoulders. It took three more cuts to hack through all that bone and muscle and sever the head from the body, and afterward he was sick, remembering all the times they'd sat over a cup of mead talking of hounds and hunting."

The miller's boys, one of the more gut wrenching things to read in this entire series. How many recall how they felt upon reading this?

"Their limbs were already stiffening, so they seemed to resist sullenly as he fumbled at them with half-frozen fingers, tugging up breeches and knotting laces, yanking fur-trimmed boots over hard unbending feet, buckling a studded leather belt around a waist no bigger than the span of his hands. "This was never what I wanted," he told them as he worked. "They gave me no choice." The corpses made no answer, but only grew colder and heavier."

'Waist no bigger than the span of his hands.' How old were you when your waist was that small? Those boys from the mill he murdered so he wouldn't look weak, then took the time to dress them, and laced up their shoes didn't deserve what happened to them.

The miller's wife:

"The night before, it had been the miller's wife. Theon had forgotten her name, but he remembered her body, soft pillowy breasts and stretch marks on her belly, the way she clawed his back when he fucked her. Last night in his dream he had been in bed with her once again, but this time she had teeth above and below, and she tore out his throat even as she was gnawing off his manhood. It was madness. He'd seen her die too. Gelmarr had cut her down with one blow of his axe as she cried to Theon for mercy. Leave me, woman. It was him who killed you, not me."

This is a woman that Theon had relations with, you would think she would be given the benefit and shown some mercy. No, he didn't even remember her name.

"Theon knew the mill. He had even tumbled the miller's wife a time or two. There was nothing special about it, or her."

ETA: So that we don't venture off course we are meant to discuss the real Theon Greyjoy by analyzing his actions towards people he grew up around and had intimate relationships with.

[Talbot]

What's your point? Theon did some terrible things in taking/keeping Winterfell, this is known and universally agreed upon.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I'm not really sure the point of the topic, but Beth was likely butchered along with everyone else in Winterfell.

So Theon is a terrible person who did terrible things? Yes, that's pretty much established. I guess you're supposed to feel sorry for him for all he endured.

[Minsc]

"This is craven," Ser Rodrik said. "To use a child so . . . this is despicable."

Isn't that what Ned did to insure that Balon wouldn't get uppity again?

Also, regarding their friendship with him doesn't Theon also remember them treating him normally with distance and suspicion?

But yeah, no one is saying that his actions were overly cheery but neither are they alone in the atrocity scale even when counting some of the heroes in the series.

[Lion of Judah]

What's your point? Theon did some terrible things in taking/keeping Winterfell, this is known and universally agreed upon.

I'm not really sure the point of the topic, but Beth was likely butchered along with everyone else in Winterfell.

So Theon is a terrible person who did terrible things? Yes, that's pretty much established. I guess you're supposed to feel sorry for him for all he endured.

If you don't get the point read the OP. Discuss who is Theon Greyjoy and the impact of his actions highlighted in the OP.

[armidil0]

Last night in his dream he had been in bed with her once again, but this time she had teeth above and below, and she tore out his throat even as she was gnawing off his manhood.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Teeth-movie-l02.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.starpulse.com/Movies/Teeth/gallery/Teeth-movie-l02/&h=250&w=445&sz=23&tbnid=4uGP1p18J8_WhM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=150&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dteeth%2Bmovie%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=teeth+movie&usg=__JN5u1qa7EacMpxbb1y3XsdBKYEs=&docid=ZT99mRwqHwcaiM&sa=X&ei=4-dJUeHKOubf2QW944A4&ved=0CJQBEP4dMA8

[Lion of Judah]

Isn't that what Ned did to insure that Balon wouldn't get uppity again?

Also, regarding their friendship with him doesn't Theon also remember them treating him normally with distance and suspicion?

But yeah, no one is saying that his actions were overly cheery but neither are they alone in the atrocity scale even when counting some of the heroes in the series.

While we do see an array of heinous acts by various characters, I think Theon's stands out because of the relationship and connection he had with his victims. Which is why I want to scratch the surface and analyze the mind of the individual.

[Minsc]

While we do see an array of heinous acts by various characters, I think Theon's stands out because of the relationship and connection he had with his victims. Which is why I want to scratch the surface and analyze the mind of the individual.

That probably explains why we see him being one of the most troubled individual when reflecting on his actions, while many others probably just view the results of war and don't allow it to occupy their thoughts. For example, do we ever have Tyrion worry about the small folk of the Vale after he arms the Mountain Clans and etc.

[armidil0]

Theon killed and abonded his closest friends and people he could call family beacause of some old grumpy dude on some crappy islands told him he was weak.

Theon has some serious confidence issues, and acceptance issues.

He wants to be loved, but he doesn't know by whom. He thinks he can make up for lost time by helping his dad, but fails to realise that his dad gave up on him a long time ago.

he betrays everybody that mattered to him, hoping he would gain replacements and slowly realises that nobody can replace the people you grew up with.

[SeanF]

I've sometimes wondered if one of the Miller's wife's children was Theon's own son.

[Lion of Judah]

That probably explains why we see him being one of the most troubled individual when reflecting on his actions, while many others probably just view the results of war and don't allow it to occupy their thoughts. For example, do we ever have Tyrion worry about the small folk of the Vale after he arms the Mountain Clans and etc.

No we do not and it makes me wonder why such a disconnect between lords and the people they are meant to rule over. The extent that they are viewed as collateral damage is astounding and not only Theon is guilty of this.

[Lion of Judah]

Theon killed and abonded his closest friends and people he could call family beacause of some old grumpy dude on some crappy islands told him he was weak.

Theon has some serious confidence issues, and acceptance issues.

He wants to be loved, but he doesn't know by whom. He thinks he can make up for lost time by helping his dad, but fails to realise that his dad gave up on him a long time ago.

he betrays everybody that mattered to him, hoping he would gain replacements and slowly realises that nobody can replace the people you grew up with.

Daddy issues. I think he wants love and acceptance from his father, because I think he actually has love and respect at Winterfell. He turns his back on the people who gave it to him and butchered many of them.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

If you don't get the point read the OP. Discuss who is Theon Greyjoy and the impact of his actions highlighted in the OP.

In that case, Theon is deeply troubled by his lack of place in the world. This is especially impactful because of how much he envies the Starks and Stark children, particularly their treatment from their parents and siblings toward each other. When he leaves for "Home" his troubles are amplified because he's treated like garbage by his father and sister (and really everyone else), which hurts him especially because he had hoped to get the love and respect the Stark children receive.

At this point Theon would do anything or everything to make a name for himself and earn a place in his father's heart, not to mention his respect. The thing is though, that Theon is especially cruel and disrespectful even as a boy. For example:

Kicking the dismembered head of the NW deserter and laughing

Immediately wanting to kill the direwolf pups

Using women as objects, treating them without honor or respect

Now when an already cruel person feels like he must do anything to accomplish his goals, they tend to do some fucked up things. His love and respect for Robb pales in comparison to his feelings of abandonment and inadequacy. And thus a terrible person does terrible things and suffers a terrible fate as a result.

[Lion of Judah]

I've sometimes wondered if one of the Miller's wife's children was Theon's own son.

Wow. I've never thought about that! Do we know how old the millers boys are?

[Grip]

Also lets not forget that he killed some of his own men aswell. They were certainly not innocent, far from it, but still they were his men and they had helped him take Winterfell. Again, they cant be compared to the millers boy's, but they served him and he betrayed them.

Edit: Perhaps misread the op slightly, IE he hardly grew up with these people but they were (to a certain extent) his people.

[SeanF]

Wow. I've never thought about that! Do we know how old the millers boys are?

Old enough to pass for Bran and Rickon. IIRC, Theon is 21 at this point, and Rickon is 6. If he and the Miller's wife had first had sex when he was 15 or 16, it would be possible.

[Minsc]

Daddy issues. I think he wants love and acceptance from his father, because I think he actually has love and respect at Winterfell. He turns his back on the people who gave it to him and butchered many of them.

That is what adds to the tragedy of his story, as in his attempt to win respect and love from his family he actually turns against Robb one of the only people(excluding his mother) to ever fully accept him like how true family is supposed to be yet even this doesn't allow him to win respect from his actual family. Thus, in the end he loses the thing he wanted most when he loses Robb's respect yet gains nothing for this sacrifice.

[SeanF]

In that case, Theon is deeply troubled by his lack of place in the world. This is especially impactful because of how much he envies the Starks and Stark children, particularly their treatment from their parents and siblings toward each other. When he leaves for "Home" his troubles are amplified because he's treated like garbage by his father and sister (and really everyone else), which hurts him especially because he had hoped to get the love and respect the Stark children receive.

At this point Theon would do anything or everything to make a name for himself and earn a place in his father's heart, not to mention his respect. The thing is though, that Theon is especially cruel and disrespectful even as a boy. For example:

Kicking the dismembered head of the NW deserter and laughing

Immediately wanting to kill the direwolf pups

Using women as objects, treating them without honor or respect

Now when an already cruel person feels like he must do anything to accomplish his goals, they tend to do some fucked up things. His love and respect for Robb pales in comparison to his feelings of abandonment and inadequacy. And thus a terrible person does terrible things and suffers a terrible fate as a result.

Theon's basically a weak man, who's trying to appear hard and tough.

[Lion of Judah]

In that case, Theon is deeply troubled by his lack of place in the world. This is especially impactful because of how much he envies the Starks and Stark children, particularly their treatment from their parents and siblings toward each other. When he leaves for "Home" his troubles are amplified because he's treated like garbage by his father and sister (and really everyone else), which hurts him especially because he had hoped to get the love and respect the Stark children receive.

At this point Theon would do anything or everything to make a name for himself and earn a place in his father's heart, not to mention his respect. The thing is though, that Theon is especially cruel and disrespectful even as a boy. For example:

Kicking the dismembered head of the NW deserter and laughing

Immediately wanting to kill the direwolf pups

Using women as objects, treating them without honor or respect

Now when an already cruel person feels like he must do anything to accomplish his goals, they tend to do some fucked up things. His love and respect for Robb pales in comparison to his feelings of abandonment and inadequacy. And thus a terrible person does terrible things and suffers a terrible fate as a result.

Welcome to the discussion, I clarified your qualms in the OP so that we're thinking along the same lines.

You bring up an interesting point about Theon's envy for the Stark children, we learn from his discussion with Lady Ryswell that deep down he wanted to be like the Starks. This raises a question of which held more meaning because Theon IMO was treated better than Jon. So did he desire to be a Stark or did he have daddy issues?

[Lion of Judah]

That is what adds to the tragedy of his story, as in his attempt to win respect and love from his family he actually turns against Robb one of the only people(excluding his mother) to ever fully accept him like how true family is supposed to be yet even this doesn't allow him to win respect from his actual family. Thus, in the end he loses the thing he wanted most when he loses Robb's respect yet gains nothing for this sacrifice.

I was actually surprised by the impact Balon had on Theon even considering that Balon is his father. The extent of his resentment when he takes Winterfell is almost like he's saying 'Look daddy, now I'm really Iron Born.' But Balon isn't there to see and give his approval, so I think it comes from somewhere else.