Will the real Theon Greyjoy please stand up.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Tasteless, but not cruel.

Theon's behavior does not cause pain to anyone in that instance.

You're just arguing semantics at this point.

[Sullen]

Interesting because his actions while in Winterfell could be an outward expression of that neglect. What I find odd as well was his execution of the kennel master. Theon is Iron Born now, but when the kennel master says Eddard did his own killings Theon obliged. There is an inner battle going on within him, if he is truly Iron Born why care how Ned executes? And the fact that he made such a mess of it was symbolic as well.

He is still wishes to be a Stark, he just didn't realize it then. That's why Eddard's method of execution still mattered to him. And yeah, that fact that Fallon decapitation is horribly be done could very well be symbolic.

I had never thought of that...

[Sullen]

You're just arguing semantics at this point.

I am not.

Being cruel and having a bad sense of humor are two very different things.

[Cas Stark]

I think overall he desired to be wanted/accepted and to have a place is more important than being a Stark to him, since he doesn't even attempt to be honorable or exhibit any Stark traits. If he tried at being a Stark but failed, I would think you could argue it, but as I said earlier he's cruel, arrogant, always smiling and making light of things...Nothing like a Stark at all. He doesn't want to be a Stark.

He does though. He repeatedly thinks about what Lord Eddard would have done, when he talks to the people at Winterfell he tells them he will be just like Eddard Stark, when Bran and Rickon disappear he thinks to be as deliberate and calm as Eddard Stark, and when he does the beheading he does it because that is the Stark way.

But, he is confused throughout most of his henious deeds, which is why he doesn't recognize why he felt elated after Whispering Wood with Robb and why he feels empty and terrible after killing the Talhard boy. Yes, he wants to be accepted and loved and respected above all--but his actual model for how to do this is Eddard Stark, not Baylon Greyjoy--his tragedy is that his particular situation and upbringing puts him in the middle, in his heart he doesn't have the casual cruelty of the Ironborn, but he's cruel nevertheless......his father was right, the wolves did change him, but they changed him for the BETTER. Only he doesn't see this until its too late. Why do you think he keeps Bran's wolf pin?

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

He does though. He repeatedly thinks about what Lord Eddard would have done, when he talks to the people at Winterfell he tells them he will be just like Eddard Stark, when Bran and Rickon disappear he thinks to be as deliberate and calm as Eddard Stark, and when he does the beheading he does it because that is the Stark way.

This is a weird way to look at it. He really wants to be a Stark but he does nothing a Stark would ever do minus two or three random acts (One of them you listed is about how to react to boys whose home he invaded ran away). He says he wants to be like them but almost all of his actions are contrary because when choosing becomes hard, he fucks it all up so badly because being honorable is much less important than being powerful or respected by his kin.

In contrast, look at Jaime. A despicable man, at least for most of his life, but when choosing became hard, he chose to be alienated, mocked, and despised for the sake of saving the lives of innocent people. Although to be fair in his PoV he did mention thinking of slipping away but people walked into the throne room to soon after, but the point still stands.

[conon394]

Obviously the conflict of Theon is what he wants to be the Prince of Greyjoy he imagines or a Stark that he has become but is still an outsider to some extent.

This is all well covered above but I think a few things have been overlooked.

It seems clear he was an outsider and bullied at home anyway so its odd he turns so hard back to an attempt at being a Greyjoy.

I agree with others I can't see Ned killing him but I think it reasonable to recall It was Robert's victory and technically he was Robert's prisoner, I doubt Robert would hesitate to send his father his head so Ned would be in a bind.

But most importantly the Lady Dustin is in fact wrong when she was talking to Theon in the Crypt. He may have been Ned's ward/prisoner but Robb did in fact treat him as a brother once he was King of the North. He took him to war, and sent him to negotiate with his father alone... That means Robb trusted him, more than his mother did (and surely some others who may have not liked the action). Theon had the chance to be a Stark - Robb gave him that and he betrayed it for a fantasy that did and would not ever exist.

[Cas Stark]

This is a weird way to look at it. He really wants to be a Stark but he does nothing a Stark would ever do minus two or three random acts (One of them you listed is about how to react to boys whose home he invaded ran away). He says he wants to be like them but almost all of his actions are contrary because when choosing becomes hard, he fucks it all up so badly because being honorable is much less important than being powerful or respected by his kin.

In contrast, look at Jaime. A despicable man, at least for most of his life, but when choosing became hard, he chose to be alienated, mocked, and despised for the sake of saving the lives of innocent people. Although to be fair in his PoV he did mention thinking of slipping away but people walked into the throne room to soon after, but the point still stands.

That's what makes him such a phenominally tragic figure. Theon Greyjoy had everything he really wanted--acceptance, respect--in the palm of his hand. He was a friend of Robb Stark, King in the North and there is no reason why he shouldn't have remained as one of his closest advisors.

But, because he is flawed and weak, he doesn't see it. He goes home, and he remembers exactly how much the Ironborn totally suck. But, because he is weak and flawed, he makes all the wrong decisions. He knows, after they kill Talhard that he's making the wrong decisions, but he keeps making them anyway, because he's weak. The levels of self justification in his POV exceed even those of Cersei. Everybody he killed made him do it, it wasn't his fault, whine, whine, whine. I stole your castle and took you prisoner, how come nobody loves me. He knows he should go with his sister, but he's too weak and proud to admit it, because then, all of his betrayals would have been for nothing.

Lady Dustin had him pegged completely, only unfortunately Theon didn't realize it until too late. By the time he knows that Winterfell is the only true home he ever had, it's destroyed, along with all of its inhabitants, all due to his own stupidity.

[conon394]

by the time he knows that Winterfell is the only true home he ever had, it's destroyed

Which has a nice symmetry because so is he in body.

You know elsewhere I argued Cat releasing Jamie foolishly and Robb allowing the King in the North were the keys to Robb's downfall but the more I think about it I think Theon's betrayal was perhaps the real killer blow. But for him The squids would have been stuck on the coast and Roose would have far less room to maneuver, While Robb could still hope for supplies via his new ships and his plan to retake the neck was sound

[Minsc]

So let me ask you this...considering Theon's predicament being a hostage and Iron Born. In your opinion was he ever treated unfairly? Were the attitudes directed towards him overly disrespectful or offensive?

Is their a normal consensus that speaks on their displeasure that Cat took her frustration out on Jon for Ned's unfaithfulness? In that, in both cases both Jon and Theon were innocent children being blamed/punished for their father's mistakes.

[StarkDragon]

I am not.

Being cruel and having a bad sense of humor are two very different things.

They are?

Oh good Gods, I may not be evil!

[Cas Stark]

Which has a nice symmetry because so is he in body.

You know elsewhere I argued Cat releasing Jamie foolishly and Robb allowing the King in the North were the keys to Robb's downfall but the more I think about it I think Theon's betrayal was perhaps the real killer blow. But for him The squids would have been stuck on the coast and Roose would have far less room to maneuver, While Robb could still hope for supplies via his new ships and his plan to retake the neck was sound

It was. Releasing Jamie Lannister was monumentally stupid, but, Theon's betrayal was the death of Robb Stark. Not even necessarily Theon's betrayal itself, because the Northmen would have retaken Winterfell, BUT, when you factor in the whole Reek/Ramsey debacle which led to Winterfell being sacked, everyone taken prisoner or being killed and the apparent death of Bran and Rickon Stark....there was no way Robb could back from that AND Jamie Lannister AND marrying some nobody Westerling. He may have survived 2 of the 3, but the third strike, and that was it.

Roose wasn't kidding when he told Theon he owed the North to him, he does. If Theon Greyjoy never gets the idea to take Winterfell, things would have played out differently. A dodgy allie is not going to follow a King who can't even keep his own castle and brothers safe and alive.

[Minsc]

You're just arguing semantics at this point.

I agree with The Sullen Sellsword, the factor of him kicking the beheaded head does not necessitate an innate sense of cruelty. In reality, Theon's actions could be his own morbid and cynical copping measure to his unease with the situation. Remember in that scene, Theon is having to hand Ice to Ned and then watch him execute someone in the name of the King's Justice, yet Theon's entire reasoning for being at Winterfell is to be a hostage that Ned can execute in the name of the King's Justice if his father ever acts up again.

Therefore, it is likely that Theon is fully aware that someday it might be his head on the block with his friend handing Ice over to Ned in preparation for his own beheading thus he attempts to treat the matter as joke in order to not think to deeply on the manner.

[Cameron]

anyone consider that he was a hostage meant to keep the iron islands from rebelling. so if he returned to the starks, it was a possibility that they would have him executed as a message to Balon. I don't think Robb would have done so, particularly not since he was much closer to Theon than Eddard was, but to Theon, who has known for a while his real value to the starks is as a convenient hostage, the threat may have seemed very real

[Cas Stark]

anyone consider that he was a hostage meant to keep the iron islands from rebelling. so if he returned to the starks, it was a possibility that they would have him executed as a message to Balon. I don't think Robb would have done so, particularly not since he was much closer to Theon than Eddard was, but to Theon, who has known for a while his real value to the starks is as a convenient hostage, the threat may have seemed very real

no. not at all.

[Gannicus]

Lion I like the topic for the reason that Theon get's a lot of sympathy for the man he has become.

I could forgive and even understand his betrayal of Robb and taking of Winterfell. I think the show did a great job portraying the conflict in him.

But his actions during the sack of Winterfell are hard to look past.

I agree with The Sullen Sellsword, the factor of him kicking the beheaded head does not necessitate an innate sense of cruelty. In reality, Theon's actions could be his own morbid and cynical copping measure to his unease with the situation. Remember in that scene, Theon is having to hand Ice to Ned and then watch him execute someone in the name of the King's Justice, yet Theon's entire reasoning for being at Winterfell is to be a hostage that Ned can execute in the name of the King's Justice if his father ever acts up again.

Therefore, it is likely that Theon is fully aware that someday it might be his head on the block with his friend handing Ice over to Ned in preparation for his own beheading thus he attempts to treat the matter as joke in order to not think to deeply on the manner.

Even if you consider his over the top actions to be some type of copping measure, it's not an excuse to stoop to sub Tywin, sub Joffrey, and sub Gregor levels in his sack of the city. Even if Theon considered himself a hostage under constant threat of having his head chopped off his actions are cruel. Most would treat even their worst enemies with more respect.

[Minsc]

But his actions during the sack of Winterfell are hard to look past.

Even if you consider his over the top actions to be some type of copping measure, it's not an excuse to stoop to sub Tywin, sub Joffrey, and sub Gregor levels in his sack of the city. Even if Theon considered himself a hostage under constant threat of having his head chopped off his actions are cruel. Most would treat even their worst enemies with more respect.

What sack of the city? Theon basically comes in and his initial action include IIRC basically him killing one person( who challenged him in front of his men). Otherwise, his takeover of Winterfell was relatively a bloodless affair with him only going more dark as he becomes more desperate. Honestly, I doubt Robb's seige of the Westereling castle was as clean of a affair.

[Sullen]

But his actions during the sack of Winterfell are hard to look past.

Even if you consider his over the top actions to be some type of copping measure, it's not an excuse to stoop to sub Tywin, sub Joffrey, and sub Gregor levels in his sack of the city. Even if Theon considered himself a hostage under constant threat of having his head chopped off his actions are cruel. Most would treat even their worst enemies with more respect.

As Minsc said, Theon didn't sack Winterfell, he took it causing as less damage as possible, and even punished the Ironborn he found guilty of rape.

He did treat Winterfell with as much respect as an invader could, they refused to acknowledge him and his authority, and then things kinda went down the shitter. (And even then, they weren't that bad in the grand scale of things)

[shiola]

I feel very bad for Theon. He saw how Ned respected Robb and he wanted some of that for himself. He was his father's heir, so he thought, and the last remaining son. He came to adulthood in the North, and thus his mind accepted Northern customs. To go home and receive the lack of welcome that he did was very depressing. He thought people were waving at him when he was with Asha, but they were waving at her. She humiliated him in front of everyone. His own father insults him and doesn't want him around-- the same father who abandoned him in Winterfell. So it doesn't make sense to Theon-- You're the one who stuck me there, yet you hold it against me? And here I am, home to you, willing to bridge the gap between you and the North so you can have what you want, and you revile me for it.

With how cruel everyone was towards him at home, he did what he thought he had to do to fit in when he returned to Winterfell. Despite how well the Northerners treated him, we know for a fact he didn't feel like he was one of them. He did what he thought he had to in order to win the love of the people from where he thought he belonged.

People do atrocious things in war. He wanted to prove he was truly Iron born. He just wanted to belong, and that's heartbreaking. Then to become what he has become... I do not think he deserved it.

[SeanF]

Theon isn't a child. He's 21. Ned has killed younger men than that. Ned wouldn't have agreed to warding him if he was unwilling to be able to kill him

He's killed men in battle, and he's executed criminals. I don't know if he's executed a hostage. And, Theon has much younger than 21 for much of the time he was at Winterfell.

Some of the arguments in favour of assasinating Daenerys sound quite reasonable, and she's on the verge of adulthood, but Ned has a gut hostility towards the proposal. I'm sure he'd have still felt the same way if Daenerys had been 21.

[Pod The Impaler]

Theon killed and abonded his closest friends and people he could call family beacause of some old grumpy dude on some crappy islands told him he was weak.

Theon has some serious confidence issues, and acceptance issues.

He wants to be loved, but he doesn't know by whom. He thinks he can make up for lost time by helping his dad, but fails to realise that his dad gave up on him a long time ago.

he betrays everybody that mattered to him, hoping he would gain replacements and slowly realises that nobody can replace the people you grew up with.

In that case, Theon is deeply troubled by his lack of place in the world. This is especially impactful because of how much he envies the Starks and Stark children, particularly their treatment from their parents and siblings toward each other. When he leaves for "Home" his troubles are amplified because he's treated like garbage by his father and sister (and really everyone else), which hurts him especially because he had hoped to get the love and respect the Stark children receive.

At this point Theon would do anything or everything to make a name for himself and earn a place in his father's heart, not to mention his respect. The thing is though, that Theon is especially cruel and disrespectful even as a boy. For example:

Kicking the dismembered head of the NW deserter and laughing

Immediately wanting to kill the direwolf pups

Using women as objects, treating them without honor or respect

Now when an already cruel person feels like he must do anything to accomplish his goals, they tend to do some fucked up things. His love and respect for Robb pales in comparison to his feelings of abandonment and inadequacy. And thus a terrible person does terrible things and suffers a terrible fate as a result.

Theon's basically a weak man, who's trying to appear hard and tough.

I don't think it is surprising that in a society that holds such a value on family that Balon's views impacts Theon so much.

Moreover, there is probably also the factor that Balon's hatred came to a crashing blow to Theon's identity. Remember, he was taken away from his family and home at a young age solely because he was the Greyjoy heir. Thus, it is likely that when he was lonely or frustrated by his outsider status within Winterfell that he probably went inside himself with the comforting thought that he was both a Greyjoy and some day was going to rule the Iron Isles thus have the respect and love he desired.

Yet, when he finally comes home he finds out that future identity he made for himself is for naught that instead his father and people have replaced him and he will never receive the consolidation he dreamed of in payment for his imprisonment(for lack of better word) that he was made to endure for his father's crimes.

Therefore, that acts as driving force for him to push however hard to win back that identity that dreamed for himself.

I think that there is a real difference, almost a complete character reinvention, for Theon. In aCoK, he is a vain, weak, angry, cruel, self-centered young man struggling with what kind of man he was going to be. Whereas in aDwD, he has been completely broken by Ramsay. Totally becomes a different character, not just in the reek sense. By looking at him as two different men, I can safely say that pre-CoK Theon was, for the most part, a bad, narcissistic violent douche. The real Theon at that point was very immature, emotionally and mentally. But Dwd Theon is so much more aware and has learned what compassion and selflessness means, at least to a certain degree. He still has to complete the redemption angle of his story arc, but I really see him, as I said earlier, as two characters.

The way I see it, Theon is like a foster kid who came from some shitty gangster family and was seized by child protective services.

In some ways, of course it is good to be raised by a good family. But the contrast between where you are now and the horrid place you come from warps you.

Prior to being captured by Ramsay Snow, Theon secretly wants to be a Stark. He won't admit it, though.

Yes, in part he resents being reminded what an outsider and non-Stark he is, the rescue of Bran being an example.

However, even though he's living better in Winterfell than he ever did at home, he has a certain amount of pride.

I don't mean he has true pride in being Ironborn - he has pride about the slighty villainous reputation this gives him. Kick a deseters severed head; bed women as prizes; call Robb and Prince Joffrey "children" as they practice in the yard. He is like a Stark, but a bit more cruel, a bit more disrespectful. Best of both worlds - he gets to be the bad boy, the rogue, the rebel, but free of the bullying and dead-end strife of the family he came from.

However, once he goes to the Iron Islands, he really resents that they seem ready to treat him like a non-Greyjoy. It hurts - he is nothing to them. Lower in street-cred than his sister in a macho culture - he might as well be branded a "bitch". He thinks has grown to manhood, he has fought battles, he is no coward, but to them he must start from scratch or worse, is tainted and will never have the true one-percenter way inside him. Even his own father mourns his dead sons (his rotten, cruel dead sons) but has written off his living one.

Going back to the point about "Theon, the foster kid of Winterfell". Theon's got a warped idea in his headm because based on his origins, he has in a way idealized villainy. His pride in being an Ironborn hostage, son of the rebel king, helped him get through the whole experience of being a hostage and cut off from his family. It may have also helped him get though the shame of realizing his adopted family were better than his blood family. He always kept that last shred of being a Greyjoy - the cockiness, the disrespect - at least as he understood it.

After he goes home and then is unleashed on the North, he has to bury his feelings of guilt by trying to be a villain all the way - a real villain now. Not just his father's son, but the most vicious SOB in his family. He must be cruel, he must slaughter, he must never seem weak. He has to prove he's of Ironborn blood, and has forsaken the Starks forever. (Much the same as Tywin Lannister killed Rhaegar's wife and children, to overemphasize whose side they were now on.)

The thing is, Theon was not cut out for this villain role. He's afraid to be kind or even reasonable, and this drives him to do terrible things, but it inwardly sickens him to do the things he's doing. He is a Greyjoy, he owes the Starks no allegiance as kin. But deep down, he's wracked by guilt over the things he's doing.

So - this is Theon being weak by "being strong". He's not exactly craven, but he's trying to play the villain and failing. Real villains are people like

In the end, he's pretty much ready to die - to wash away the things he's done, and to show his sister and father and the rest of "his people" that he was a true Ironborn prince. He stays behind at Winterfell to get killed, rather than retreat and live on in infamy.

And worse for him, he fails to die andeven after the torture, the infamy is all his.