R+L=J v.45

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I was responding to LG's theory that Lyanna may have nursed both her and Wylla's baby for a while as Wylla went to fetch Ned.

Oh I see, well that's different, while Lyanna may have had enough milk, I doubt she would be strong enough at that point to nurse anyone, let alone 2 babies. I was thinking about it, LYanna could have had eclampsia, which not only kills you sometime after childbirth but also makes you foggy and like not completely there in the sense that you will say things that don't make sense and can't quite get a grip on what's going on in the present. I get the sense from the limited text about what she was saying to Ned that she could have been almost delirious after the birth.

[FittleLinger]

Oh I see, well that's different, while Lyanna may have had enough milk, I doubt she would be strong enough at that point to nurse anyone, let alone 2 babies. I was thinking about it, LYanna could have had eclampsia, which not only kills you sometime after childbirth but also makes you foggy and like not completely there in the sense that you will say things that don't make sense and can't quite get a grip on what's going on in the present. I get the sense from the limited text about what she was saying to Ned that she could have been almost delirious after the birth.

Possibly, but I recall an interview where Martin admists that he is not an expert on nursing, giving birth and such female issues, so he would gladly accept advice and/or correction from some experts willing to advice. So I just think he thought "childbirth fever" and that's it.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

@Lady Gwynhyfvar: I'm still not sure if a fresh mother would be able to produce enough milk for her own child and an older one. A newborn's intake of milk is much lower than that of an older child. I really do not know (though I don't think GRRM knows, either). Plus, another problem: if Lyanna has a wetnurse at hand, why does she start breastfeeding at all, or do you think Wylla was "just in case"? We do know, from Catelyn and Cersei, that they both nursed their children, so it seems that even noblewomen breastfeed their children if they are able to.

That case of post-birth complication you mention is very interesting as it might prolong the period between the childbirth and Ned's arrival, but if the hemorrhaging is so profound, would there be time for fever to develop?

Well--- a new mother can produce enough milk for twins, so I think it's possible once the mother's milk is established, which takes a few days. Yes, the milk is different but we aren't talking about an ideal situation here. And remember, I am proposing a scenario where Lyanna seemed perfectly healthy for days if not weeks following her delivery.

I don't think Wylla was originally there to be a wet nurse for Lyanna. I think she may have been there with Ashara, as I mentioned above. Her lactation was a fortunate circumstance as it turns out.

As for the hemhorraging/fever, yes I think fever would develop quite quickly and depending on the level of bleeding it could take several days to die. My FIL is an obstetrican and I plan to pose this scenario to him, so I will definitely be back with more detail.

I introduced this line of thought because it solves (for me) several puzzles- the earlier debate about why the KG didn't ditch Lyanna and flee with the child, the confusion over Ashara and Wylla being the mother (two babies accounts for that) and how did Ned get that message. Also, as I was theorizing I realized that if Ashara brought a cart it explains that old argument about why Ned left all the bodies at ToJ except Lyanna's-- Ashara had brought a conveyance meant to carry the living Lyanna to Starfall.

I really appreciate all of the constructive feedback. There are details I posit here that I fully admit are merely unprovable leaps. I enjoy constructing possible scenarios in my head... When they're ready for public viewing I share them here and invariably get some excellent insight in return, which allows for further refinement. I will not be defending every detail of this one until my last breath, believe me ;)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Possibly, but I recall an interview where Martin admists that he is not an expert on nursing, giving birth and such female issues, so he would gladly accept advice and/or correction from some experts willing to advice. So I just think he thought "childbirth fever" and that's it.

As far a Lyanna's condition goes, while I'm not a fan of lengthy obstetrical discussions mostly because I'm not convinced GRRM really used this level of detailed thought when writing, I will offer an explanation that addresses all of your obstetrical concerns above.

Thank you! I offer all of this mostly as way of showing that what many people assume must be the case could actually have been any number of things. The obstretical and lactation objections I've seen in the past (not just in this discussion) invariably make assumptions one way or another when we all know that every medical case is different. And I imagine a bemused GRRM confronted with all of this saying... WTF! Blood and fever is all I meant... get a life people! :laugh:

[UVA]

Agreed. Gilly has two her baby and Mance's child perfectly possible

Just adding my 2 cents to the breastmilk debate...having breastfed three babies, I speak from experience that while there is the thick colostrum that a mother has initially after delivery her milk can come in very quickly, especially if there's frequent feeding at the onset. It wouldn't be difficult for a new mother to start producing a lot. That said, I question whether Lyanna was strong enough to even hold a baby to nurse after her delivery.

[FittleLinger]

Thank you! I offer all of this mostly as way of showing that what many people assume must be the case could actually have been any number of things. The obstretical and lactation objections I've seen in the past (not just in this discussion) invariably make assumptions one way or another when we all know that every medical case is different. And I imagine a bemused GRRM confronted with all of this saying... WTF! Blood and fever is all I meant... get a life people! :laugh:

Exactly. It's like (also by his words) some astronomically educated dudes giving him complex galaxy models with supernovas and stuff that could account for the long seasons. And he just said that he appreciated the work and that someone is so involved with his work, but it's "just" magic :D

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Just adding my 2 cents to the breastmilk debate...having breastfed three babies, I speak from experience that while there is the thick colostrum that a mother has initially after delivery her milk can come in very quickly, especially if there's frequent feeding at the onset. It wouldn't be difficult for a new mother to start producing a lot. That said, I question whether Lyanna was strong enough to even hold a baby to nurse after her delivery.

Having two kids of my own and watched a lot of nursing mothers around me, I agree with you. Even to the point that if Lyanna's complications were immediately post partum it could preclude nursing her own, never mind a second, child. But I proposed a scenario, based on real life experience, where Lyanna appeared perfectly healthy for days or weeks after the delivery. Is it likely GRRM gave it this much thought? Not at all. But the point is really that we cannot make assumptions about the medical details, because there are any number of possible scenarios.

@Ygrain- just got off the phone with my FIL, who concurs that the retained placenta scenario is quite possible and in that case, fever could be present at the onset of the hemhorrage and the two combined would cause death. The time frame would depend upon the level of bleeding, the relative strength of the mother and the pace at which the fever progressed. Also, he now thinks I belong to a very bizarre "book club" :laugh:

ETA-- Why is that even knowing the futility of discussions at this micro level, we can't stop having them? :dunno:

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Exactly. It's like (also by his words) some astronomically educated dudes giving him complex galaxy models with supernovas and stuff that could account for the long seasons. And he just said that he appreciated the work and that someone is so involved with his work, but it's "just" magic :D

Ahahaha, what a nut! i have always wondered about the long seasons....Magic is a good answer I guess. :cool4:

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Having two kids of my own and watched a lot of nursing mothers around me, I agree with you. Even to the point that if Lyanna's complications were immediately post partum it could preclude nursing her own, never mind a second, child. But I proposed a scenario, based on real life experience, where Lyanna appeared perfectly healthy for days or weeks after the delivery. Is it likely GRRM gave it this much thought? Not at all. But the point is really that we cannot make assumptions about the medical details, because there are any number of possible scenarios.

@Ygrain- just got off the phone with my FIL, who concurs that the retained placenta scenario is quite possible and in that case, fever could be present at the onset of the hemhorrage and the two combined would cause death. The time frame would depend upon the level of bleeding, the relative strength of the mother and the pace at which the fever progressed. Also, he now thinks I belong to a very bizarre "book club" :laugh:

ETA-- Why is that even knowing the futility of discussions at this micro level, we can't stop having them? :dunno:

Book Club, Cult, Obsession, whatever you want to call it :)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Book Club, Cult, Obsession, whatever you want to call it :)

:thumbsup:

(other members of my family may prefer "Cult")

[Alia of the knife]

:thumbsup:

(other members of my family may prefer "Cult")

Just don't mention the "Tower of Joy" to aSoIaF layman.

When I tried to explain the book to my friend, she burst into laughter and wanted to know if it was the title to some porn movie :blushing:

[Ygrain]

Agreed. Gilly has two her baby and Mance's child perfectly possible

I stand corrected by the latter posts but here I would like to point out that Gilly is not a good example, as there has been sufficient time between hers and Dalla's delivery to start full lactation.

Thank you! I offer all of this mostly as way of showing that what many people assume must be the case could actually have been any number of things. The obstretical and lactation objections I've seen in the past (not just in this discussion) invariably make assumptions one way or another when we all know that every medical case is different. And I imagine a bemused GRRM confronted with all of this saying... WTF! Blood and fever is all I meant... get a life people! :laugh:

But the nitpicking is such fun, and educative! :D

@Ygrain- just got off the phone with my FIL, who concurs that the retained placenta scenario is quite possible and in that case, fever could be present at the onset of the hemhorrage and the two combined would cause death. The time frame would depend upon the level of bleeding, the relative strength of the mother and the pace at which the fever progressed. Also, he now thinks I belong to a very bizarre "book club" :laugh:

ROFL, I take that as a compliment :D

I'm pretty much a realism freak (in anything not involving magic), so if I want to write something, I nose for details, which often results in prolonged discussions on the glorious topics backstabbing damage or effects of dehydration on a guy with infected acid burns. - Yeah, I know, I'm weird :D

[UVA]

Is it likely GRRM gave it this much thought? Not at all.

Agree. Nonetheless, I think Martin has a thing for nipples and lactating women. :laugh:

Also, he now thinks I belong to a very bizarre "book club" :laugh:

ETA-- Why is that even knowing the futility of discussions at this micro level, we can't stop having them? :dunno:

Through a few posts there I thought I was on a La Leche League forum. :P I'm sure the guys (and some women) reading about colostrum and retained placentas were saying to themselves "the hell??" But it's the details people: they matter. :smile:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Agree. Nonetheless, I think Martin has a thing for nipples and lactating women. :laugh:

Through a few posts there I thought I was on a La Leche League forum. :P I'm sure the guys (and some women) reading about colostrum and retained placentas were saying to themselves "the hell??" But it's the details people: they matter. :smile:

I've noticed that every few versions of this thread it takes a decidedly obstetrical turn. That said, I was wondering a little while ago why people like Jon Icefyre & Mtn Lion hadn't weighed in, since my original post touched on some of their favorite topics (like Wylla's role at ToJ and the baby swap) Then I realized... it wouldn't be at all surprising if they're waiting out the colostrum, uterus, placenta part of the conversation :D

ETA- Kudos to corbon and Fittle Linger for diving in anyway :thumbsup:

[Dragonfish]

Why wouldn't Ned have to Cat? That's the only part that throws me off.

"Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

--Ned Stark, A Game of Thrones

[Zupoleon]

I've noticed that every few versions of this thread it takes a decidedly obstetrical turn. That said, I was wondering a little while ago why people like Jon Icefyre & Mtn Lion hadn't weighed in, since my original post touched on some of their favorite topics (like Wylla's role at ToJ and the baby swap) Then I realized... it wouldn't be at all surprising if they're waiting out the colostrum, uterus, placenta part of the conversation :D

ETA- Kudos to corbon and Fittle Linger for diving in anyway :thumbsup:

Yes, the topics on this thread tend to be quite cyclical. Presence of the KG at the ToJ, where was the 'abduction', the twin / triplet theory, baby swap, etc... ;)

[Ygrain]

I've noticed that every few versions of this thread it takes a decidedly obstetrical turn. That said, I was wondering a little while ago why people like Jon Icefyre & Mtn Lion hadn't weighed in, since my original post touched on some of their favorite topics (like Wylla's role at ToJ and the baby swap) Then I realized... it wouldn't be at all surprising if they're waiting out the colostrum, uterus, placenta part of the conversation :D

ETA- Kudos to corbon and Fittle Linger for diving in anyway :thumbsup:

There's supposed to be something wrong with these? :o

[Ygrain]

Yes, the topics on this thread tend to be quite cyclical. Presence of the KG at the ToJ, where was the 'abduction', the twin / triplet theory, baby swap, etc... ;)

We haven't had the Lyanna/Rhaegar bashing for a while, that usually sticks to other threads.

[Zupoleon]

We haven't had the Lyanna/Rhaegar bashing for a while, that usually sticks to other threads.

Very true. Like the 'Rhaegar caused the Rebellion, not Aerys' thread.

cough (it was Aerys)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Yes, the topics on this thread tend to be quite cyclical. Presence of the KG at the ToJ, where was the 'abduction', the twin / triplet theory, baby swap, etc... ;)

Great point! We just had extended Ashara-Wylla-FD, followed by presence of KG which led (oddly) to obstetrics. Baby swap rears its head pretty often. But I haven't seen a good twin/triplet argument in a bit... who's up for it? ;)

There's supposed to be something wrong with these? :o

ROFL