R+L=J v.45

[Jon Icefyre]

Dune, did anyone say Dune.....? :ph34r:

Because you just know Rhaegar is Paul Maudib, Lyanna is Chani and Elia is Irulan, (kind of), Jon is Leto who will warg a dragon and live for three thousand years. :D

Edit: Oh, and Bran is going to Bloodraven so Bloodraven can pass on his powers and die.

Jon as Leto haha yess!!!!!

[Alia of the knife]

Jon as Leto haha yess!!!!!

BUT, Chani did have twins, hmmmmm...... B)

[UVA]

Wouldn't him leaving for KL have been the perfect time? At that point we knew he could trust Cat and she might have accepted Jon causing him to stay in Winterfell.

It is widely held by many people here that Ned simply could not confide in Cat about Jon's origins. The magnitude of the secret transcended any trust he had in Cat. Ned was committing treason by hiding Jon from Robert; any discovery of this truth could not only threaten Jon's life but the well being of his entire family. Also, if pressed Cat could sacrifice Jon if it meant saving her own children's lives. Telling Cat comprises her too much.

[UVA]

Dune, did anyone say Dune.....? :ph34r:

Because you just know Rhaegar is Paul Maudib, Lyanna is Chani and Elia is Irulan, (kind of), Jon is Leto who will warg a dragon and live for three thousand years. :D

Edit: Oh, and Bran is going to Bloodraven so Bloodraven can pass on his powers and die.

Lol. As If I couldn't tell Alia that you're a Dune fan! :D

And yeah, a much better parallel is drawn between Lyanna and Chani, with their arcs at least. Lyanna and Lady J just have favored-womb status. Jon will remain a dragon, no lovey-love.

[Jon Icefyre]

Wouldn't him leaving for KL have been the perfect time? At that point we knew he could trust Cat and she might have accepted Jon causing him to stay in Winterfell.

I argued this same logic once when I was new to the forum, and then one of the more experienced members of the forum convinced me otherwise, because Cat's main problem with Jon at Winterfell is that she sees his presence at Winterfell as a threat to her children's inheritance. So if Ned told her the truth about R+L=J then Cat could very well see him as even more of a threat seeing as though she would now know that Jon is the legitimate son of a Stark(Lyanna), therefore he is actually(secretely of course) in the Stark line of inheritance which is something he was not in simply as Ned Stark's bastard. So while I do agree there was a chance that Cat might have warmed up to Jon if Ned told her the truth, I also think there was just as good of a chance that she would react the other way as well. So I don't think it was a risk Ned was willing to take especially when you consider the fact that Robert Baratheon was also at Winterfell with the rest of the royal family, so telling Cat the truth then probably wouldn't have been the best timing in my opinion.

[Alia of the knife]

Lol. As If I couldn't tell Alia that you're a Dune fan! :D

And yeah, a much better parallel is drawn between Lyanna and Chani, with their arcs at least. Lyanna and Lady J just have favored-womb status. Jon will remain a dragon, no lovey-love.

Here you go, I couldn't resist the idea of the three heads of the dragon and this:

[Zman1863]

I argued this same logic once when I was new to the forum, and then one of the more experienced members of the forum convinced me otherwise, because Cat's main problem with Jon at Winterfell is that she sees his presence at Winterfell as a threat to her children's inheritance. So if Ned told her the truth about R+L=J then Cat could very well see him as even more of a threat seeing as though she would now know that Jon is the legitimate son of a Stark(Lyanna), therefore he is actually(secretely of course) in the Stark line of inheritance which is something he was not in simply as Ned Stark's bastard. So while I do agree there was a chance that Cat might have warmed up to Jon if Ned told her the truth, I also think there was just as good of a chance that she would react the other way as well. So I don't think it was a risk Ned was willing to take especially when you consider the fact that Robert Baratheon was also at Winterfell with the rest of the royal family, so telling Cat the truth then probably wouldn't have been the best timing in my opinion.

Plus you have to think of it in the context that Ned thought he would eventually return to Winterfell and the secret would still have to be kept. Even of Robert had died and the succession had gone peacefully, there would still be a Baratheon king with Baratheon interests to defend. If Ned had come back from his service unscathed he would have come back with an extra person knowing about Jon and the extra risk of the secret getting out. Jon joining the NW also freed Ned of a problem because the vow is insurance against Jon ever trying to use his parentage to his advantage.

[Moët]

ok - finally caught up with this thread! :laugh:

I apologize in advance if I get a curt "talk about this in the show forum" response, but I thought this kind of related to R+L=J more. I skimmed the show forums and there weren't really any discussions of the main spoiler theory for the series.

After watching the first episode of the new season, I think that Barristan revealing himself to Dany so early might be used to begin giving the viewers clues that they may have missed from not reading the books. He's how she learns a whole lot about her family's history. IIRC, Jaime replaces Arthur Dayne with Barristan Selmy when describing a great knight so they could continue that merging of characters. I know Jojen and Meera can possibly tell the KOTLF story to Bran and that could accomplish the same narrative objective but I think this could add to Barristan's character on the show. He could know more about Lyanna and Rhaegar on the show's universe.

But since some of the clues have already been left out they could be skipping this plot point entirely.

I personally think that the show is going to give us a lot of clues, since D+D=knowledge from GRRM. I actually think we got a lot in the HotU scene last year, as someone already pointed out in the show forums: Snow on the iron throne; Dany reaching for, but not touching the IT; KL a burned out ruin (dragons); Dany going north of the wall to find a dead love actually alive (Jon - sorry, I might be the only one that doesn't think it's icky), and a living child - which means she's going to have a little dark-haired son; and the whole Mirri maz Duur babble about the sun rising in the west is pretty much a description of a polar region where west is wherever you want it to be.

I don't see how they ignore Jon's parentage on the show. GRRM asking D+D who Jon's mother was before saying yes to them, tells me it's going to be a big part of the overall plot of ASOIAF. Besides, they've already setup that it's somehow important with what Ned tells Jon the last time he sees him. "We'll talk about your mother."

I think we might get something from the Reed children. Between Meera knowing something (in the books) and Jojen's dreams.... I see lots of possibilities there.

I think they're going to leave microscopic breadcrumbs though, since there's such a long way to go on the show, and the show itself is compressed story-wise, it would be easier for the TV audience to figure it out, and you don't want to reveal such an epic plot point too soon.... IMO.

Dune, did anyone say Dune.....? :ph34r:

Because you just know Rhaegar is Paul Maudib, Lyanna is Chani and Elia is Irulan, (kind of), Jon is Leto who will warg a dragon and live for three thousand years. :D

Edit: Oh, and Bran is going to Bloodraven so Bloodraven can pass on his powers and die.

Alia - yes, every time I see you post, I smile. I've read those damn books so many times - ALL of them (well, Paul Of Dune, and the next one not yet) but I've even read them in chronological order.....

And I love your parallels!

Someone mentioned Hightower being the LC of the KG. I think that adds even MORE to (what I see as) confirmation that R married L, and Jon is legitimately the heir.

[Dragonfish]

Wouldn't him leaving for KL have been the perfect time? At that point we knew he could trust Cat and she might have accepted Jon causing him to stay in Winterfell.

Pretty sure I already answered this with my quote. "Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust." In other words, it didn't matter if Ned actually did trust Cat or not, because in his mind, the secret is just too dangerous to even speak aloud.

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Cat would accept Jon if she found out the truth. Part of the reason she dislikes him is that he is a potential danger to her children and their children. How do you think she'd feel if she found out that instead, he was the heir to the deposed dynasty, which, if discovered, could spell the doom of her whole family? I doubt she'd be pleased.

[Archangel of Winterfell]

I believe Jon Snow still has a major part to play in the next two books. If he was a bastard, why would Ned Stark take him in? I think GRRM is planning something for Jon. What is Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark AND the reincarnation of Azor Ahai? With all the loss the Starks have experienced, it would be the ultimate form of irony to see the one that was the supposed bastard child, who went to the Wall, shunned by Catelyn Stark, who becomes King of the North, or goes to the Iron Throne. He could be the King of Ice and Fire. Ice (Stark) Fire (Targaryen)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

OMG - beause we're having a BLAST doing it!!! :D

Did you tell your FIL it was related to the HBO show?

:) No I told him I was discussing a novel, so he assumed "book club"! He thinks the people in the "club" are very odd, what with all the micro plot discussion. Go figure :P

[Ygrain]

Wouldn't him leaving for KL have been the perfect time? At that point we knew he could trust Cat and she might have accepted Jon causing him to stay in Winterfell.

I argued this same logic once when I was new to the forum, and then one of the more experienced members of the forum convinced me otherwise, because Cat's main problem with Jon at Winterfell is that she sees his presence at Winterfell as a threat to her children's inheritance. So if Ned told her the truth about R+L=J then Cat could very well see him as even more of a threat seeing as though she would now know that Jon is the legitimate son of a Stark(Lyanna), therefore he is actually(secretely of course) in the Stark line of inheritance which is something he was not in simply as Ned Stark's bastard. So while I do agree there was a chance that Cat might have warmed up to Jon if Ned told her the truth, I also think there was just as good of a chance that she would react the other way as well. So I don't think it was a risk Ned was willing to take especially when you consider the fact that Robert Baratheon was also at Winterfell with the rest of the royal family, so telling Cat the truth then probably wouldn't have been the best timing in my opinion.

I'd also add that spilling out something like this and then leave would probably be the worst thing Ned could have done. There's no telling how Cat would take it, what problems she might develop because of it, and he wouldn't be there for potential damage control.

[Moët]

I believe Jon Snow still has a major part to play in the next two books. If he was a bastard, why would Ned Stark take him in? I think GRRM is planning something for Jon. What is Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark AND the reincarnation of Azor Ahai? With all the loss the Starks have experienced, it would be the ultimate form of irony to see the one that was the supposed bastard child, who went to the Wall, shunned by Catelyn Stark, who becomes King of the North, or goes to the Iron Throne. He could be the King of Ice and Fire. Ice (Stark) Fire (Targaryen)

Precisely. Welcome to the forum! :D

[Moët]

Pretty sure I already answered this with my quote. "Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust." In other words, it didn't matter if Ned actually did trust Cat or not, because in his mind, the secret is just too dangerous to even speak aloud.

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Cat would accept Jon if she found out the truth. Part of the reason she dislikes him is that he is a potential danger to her children and their children. How do you think she'd feel if she found out that instead, he was the heir to the deposed dynasty, which, if discovered, could spell the doom of her whole family? I doubt she'd be pleased.

I'd also add that spilling out something like this and then leave would probably be the worst thing Ned could have done. There's no telling how Cat would take it, what problems she might develop because of it, and he wouldn't be there for potential damage control.

I think anyone Ned told would immediately be put in danger by the knowledge. Claiming Jon was his own son was the safest thing for everyone at Winterfell, period.

[Ser Theodan the True]

Is there anyone on this forum who believes Jon might actually be dead? Lol. Even if he rose from the dead 1. He'd be a wight 2. His body has lots of holes in it... 3. He wargs into Ghost, but without a body to return to will severely limit his chances at fulfilling any prophecy

[The guy from the Vale]

Who says Jon is dead to begin with? He got three stabs though very thick clothing. He might simply be in a coma.

[Black Crow]

GRRM interview:

http://www.newrepubl...artin-interview#

“You have to turn on the computer, and just look at the scene,” he said, “and suddenly Jon Snow is in the forest and there are enemies after him and what is he gonna eat and what is your next sentence, what is your next word?”

Doesn't sound very dead to me.

[King of Winters]

GRRM interview:

http://www.newrepubl...artin-interview#

“You have to turn on the computer, and just look at the scene,” he said, “and suddenly Jon Snow is in the forest and there are enemies after him and what is he gonna eat and what is your next sentence, what is your next word?”

Doesn't sound very dead to me.

He might just be using that as an example. But I agree, we're not finished with Jon yet.

[FrozenFire3]

GRRM interview:

http://www.newrepubl...artin-interview#

“You have to turn on the computer, and just look at the scene,” he said, “and suddenly Jon Snow is in the forest and there are enemies after him and what is he gonna eat and what is your next sentence, what is your next word?”

Doesn't sound very dead to me.

Well, the paragraph incipit:

When we spoke, Martin was at home in Santa Fe, working “on the 747 things that I’m late on.” A Song of Ice and Fire, of course, is still unfinished [...]

and the description of the scene he should focusing on at the end of the very same paragraph, seem to me quite related and revelatory ;)

[Moët]

GRRM also said in an interview regarding the state of Jon, that it was related to "unreliable narrator."